David Paulides & Missing 411

marhawkman

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A search crew of 13 disappeared with their flying boat searching for Flight 19.
One report suggests that the seaplane searching for flight 19 had a structure failure mid-flight and exploded in mid air when the fuel tank ruptured. Obviously the entire crew died and the explosion was far enough out to sea that people didn't even properly locate the wreckage. :/ It was a plane that was old and probably needed a LOT of work to be fully up to safety specs. One thing that's been mentioned is that it was known to stink of jet fuel on a regular basis :/ There was a log entry made by one of the other flights looking for Flight 19 that they saw what they believed to be a fireball mid-air in the distance at some point during the search and the time recorded is after the last time anyone talked to the crew of that seaplane.
 

EnolaGaia

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Yes, I know ... I just wanted to mention it as an example of searchers being jeopardized themselves when looking for someone who's gone missing.
 

marhawkman

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Yes, I know ... I just wanted to mention it as an example of searchers being jeopardized themselves when looking for someone who's gone missing.
Yeah some of what I've read made it sound like that particular plane was reasonably describable as a flying death trap. Flying it meant risking your life.
 

Spookdaddy

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I can't help thinking that the question regarding death and serious injury to searchers is a bit of a red herring.

I have friends who volunteer in the UK based Mountain Rescue services - even the most obtuse of people would surely accept that they work in hazardous conditions at the best of times, let alone when bad weather sets in. The fact that they don't tend to die on the job or suffer serious injury is a reflection on the way they do their jobs, not the potential lethality of their environment.

When you think about it, doesn't the fact that search and rescue operatives don't go missing more often kind of undermine the 'there's something out there' theory?
 
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EnolaGaia

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... When you think about it, doesn't the fact that search and rescue operatives don't go missing more often kind of undermine the 'there's something out there' theory?

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure it proves anything.

Generally speaking, the people who go MIA are often inexperienced and / or in unknown locations (including following unspecified routes) alone or in very small numbers.

Search parties are generally experienced, traversing specific areas, working in accordance with a plan known to others, often operating in groups, and often in reasonably close contact with others elsewhere (e.g., via radio).

The missing are often missing because no one else knew enough about their intents and actions to guess where they'd gone. The searchers are better coordinated among themselves and with others.
 

Spookdaddy

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I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure it proves anything...

No, it doesn't. And you are right about the general inexperience of many of those who go missing - although it's worth pointing out that pundits on the conspiracy side of the argument often emphasise the alleged expertise of the missing ('experienced hunter', 'outdoorsman' etc).

It just struck me that if there was a government covered up alien bigfoot doing the rounds out there then you would think he might have been tempted to take a swipe at the odd rescuer; after all - as the Tim Staples case you linked to above suggests - searchers are not always in large groups, and can themselves become isolated.
 

Kondoru

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Even the experienced have accidents or get lost.

this was stressed in Kepharts book (cant recall the title) written in 1920.

He had spent his life in the woods and he admitted he had been lost, but it wasn't catastrophic as he kept calm.

He relates tragic tales which took place in a wood of just 1000 acres, Its easy to go in a circle
 

marhawkman

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No, it doesn't. And you are right about the general inexperience of many of those who go missing - although it's worth pointing out that pundits on the conspiracy side of the argument often emphasise the alleged expertise of the missing ('experienced hunter', 'outdoorsman' etc).

It just struck me that if there was a government covered up alien bigfoot doing the rounds out there then you would think he might have been tempted to take a swipe at the odd rescuer; after all - as the Tim Staples case you linked to above suggests - searchers are not always in large groups, and can themselves become isolated.
This was one of the main talking points in the Bart Schleyer case. He was a skilled outdoors man who would regularly go hunting alone. Mr. Schleyer had years of experience as a search and rescue worker too! But then one day something happened while he was in the woods, and investigators could only find pieces of his remains. Most of the investigators seem to think he was killed by a bear. There might not be signs of a struggle because, well... He might have fallen asleep while waiting for game and gotten attacked in his sleep :/
 

Stormkhan

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Thing is, while even experts can have accidents or get lost, they have the knowledge and skill sets reduce the chances of accident and - when accidents occur - to improve their chances of survival and rescue.
Expert searchers with local knowledge would also know of 'hot spots' of trouble, where casual visitors or adventurous wannabe explorers usually come a cropper.
 

Yithian

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David Paulides has suffered a personal tragedy.

His son has apparently committed suicide at the age of just twenty-nine.

Whatever you may think of his work, this is horrible news.

 

ramonmercado

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It's not outside the realms of possibility that she may have been hiding from her rescuers. Apparently, in cases where mental health or learning difficulties are involved, or where head injury has affected the thought processes of the victim, it is not uncommon for victims to believe that they are in a lot of trouble - and their rescuers, rather than representing salvation, can actually appear to them as an expression of that trouble. (That doesn't of course explain away any of the other alleged anomalies - and, if it were true, would only add to the tragedy of the case.)

On a general note the 'previously searched area' motif is too often automatically used as a red flag indicator of something mysterious, when in fact it's simply another expression of a process which is not in the least infallible.

It's not an uncommon expectation, certainly in the earlier stages of a search, that a live subject will be mobile. Search patterns tend to be structured along geometrical lines - whereas the lost and disoriented often travel, sometimes quite literally, in circles. Although the grid type search is designed to maximise the potential to intersect with a meandering line, it's not an infallible means of doing so - and there's not really any guarantee that the person being searched for cannot wander back into an area already covered, or even circle back around behind a group of searchers.

It's often implied that an area that has been searched has undergone some sort of permanent process, akin to being painted pink or covered in cement. In the case of live subjects, this is quite clearly a fallacy.

Judge changes inquest verdict.

A Malaysian judge has overturned an inquest verdict of misadventure in the death of 15-year-old Nóra Quoirin, changing it to an open ruling.

Nóra, from south-west London, was discovered dead in the jungle nine days after she went missing from an eco-resort in Malaysia in August 2019. The change in verdict suggests there are still questions to be answered in the case, and leaves open the possibility of criminal involvement. Her family believe she was abducted.
Overturning the original ruling, High Court Judge Azizul Adnan said there was "no creditable evidence to support any other verdict".
"I am of the view the verdict of misadventure ought to be vacated in the interests of justice and substituted as an open verdict," he said.

The initial verdict returned in January had indicated Nóra's death was accidental. Her family said changing the verdict was "a huge deal" for them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-57496395
 

marhawkman

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Judge changes inquest verdict.

A Malaysian judge has overturned an inquest verdict of misadventure in the death of 15-year-old Nóra Quoirin, changing it to an open ruling.

Nóra, from south-west London, was discovered dead in the jungle nine days after she went missing from an eco-resort in Malaysia in August 2019. The change in verdict suggests there are still questions to be answered in the case, and leaves open the possibility of criminal involvement. Her family believe she was abducted.
Overturning the original ruling, High Court Judge Azizul Adnan said there was "no creditable evidence to support any other verdict".
"I am of the view the verdict of misadventure ought to be vacated in the interests of justice and substituted as an open verdict," he said.

The initial verdict returned in January had indicated Nóra's death was accidental. Her family said changing the verdict was "a huge deal" for them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-57496395
Well, her parents never thought that she would be able/willing to wander off into the jungle alone.

Hmm.... key events:
They leave the British Isles to go on vacation in Malaysia
After they get checked in she disappears.
6 days later she dies.
3 days after that her body is found.

The key question is... where was she? Wandering in the jungle for 6 days in which you eventually end up 2.5 km from where you started is not a major athletic feat... especially in a jungle with foot paths created by regular hiking.
_114079940_gettyimages-1161104597.jpg

The medical report showed that she died of injuries related to hunger. The initial investigation got ruled "misadventure" because there were no signs of foul play. The ONLY thing that was even out of place in their lodging was a window left open.

It still leaves the question of how searchers didn't find her until 9 days later though.
_116131339_capture.jpg

Scent dogs.. well... they're not guaranteed to work, useful tool, but not a given, and dense jungle is pretty much the best way to hide from IR cameras.

One thing pointed out by the initial investigation team, is that, while the mother claims the girl was weak and sickly..... CCTV from the airport shows her dragging her suitcase around the airport. So the Malaysian officials investigating concluded if she's healthy enough to carry her own luggage, she's healthy enough to hike in the rainforest. The question of if Nora would have been willing to do that barefoot and nearly naked is another matter.... and one the mother hotly disputed.

But well... there's no actual physical evidence that contradicts the idea the girl just went on a walk and got lost. It's noted that she was found on a stream bank in a location where she might have been drinking water because she was thirsty.

The current ruling is simply that "we don't know enough to say what happened."
 

Nosmo King

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Well, her parents never thought that she would be able/willing to wander off into the jungle alone.

Hmm.... key events:
They leave the British Isles to go on vacation in Malaysia
After they get checked in she disappears.
6 days later she dies.
3 days after that her body is found.

The key question is... where was she? Wandering in the jungle for 6 days in which you eventually end up 2.5 km from where you started is not a major athletic feat... especially in a jungle with foot paths created by regular hiking.
_114079940_gettyimages-1161104597.jpg

The medical report showed that she died of injuries related to hunger. The initial investigation got ruled "misadventure" because there were no signs of foul play. The ONLY thing that was even out of place in their lodging was a window left open.

It still leaves the question of how searchers didn't find her until 9 days later though.
_116131339_capture.jpg

Scent dogs.. well... they're not guaranteed to work, useful tool, but not a given, and dense jungle is pretty much the best way to hide from IR cameras.

One thing pointed out by the initial investigation team, is that, while the mother claims the girl was weak and sickly..... CCTV from the airport shows her dragging her suitcase around the airport. So the Malaysian officials investigating concluded if she's healthy enough to carry her own luggage, she's healthy enough to hike in the rainforest. The question of if Nora would have been willing to do that barefoot and nearly naked is another matter.... and one the mother hotly disputed.

But well... there's no actual physical evidence that contradicts the idea the girl just went on a walk and got lost. It's noted that she was found on a stream bank in a location where she might have been drinking water because she was thirsty.

The current ruling is simply that "we don't know enough to say what happened."
One of the reasons given, at the time of the initial discovery of Noras body, was that it was a few hundred yards beyond perimeter of the initial search area, i imaginge the police search team worked out a defined circular search area of about 2km in radius in all directions from the villa. Which is a lot of ground to cover in a jungle enviroment.
 

marhawkman

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One of the reasons given, at the time of the initial discovery of Noras body, was that it was a few hundred yards beyond perimeter of the initial search area, i imaginge the police search team worked out a defined circular search area of about 2km in radius in all directions from the villa. Which is a lot of ground to cover in a jungle enviroment.
Wait... wouldn't that mean that, actually, no, the search teams HADN'T looked in that specific location before? If they defined a 2km search radius then eventually found her .5 km outside that, then yeah.... She WASN'T found in a location that had been previously searched.

It just occurred to me that the quote about multiple searches was a vague "people looked in the jungle 4 times" and had no quantification about which parts of the jungle were searched.
 

Nosmo King

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Wait... wouldn't that mean that, actually, no, the search teams HADN'T looked in that specific location before? If they defined a 2km search radius then eventually found her .5 km outside that, then yeah.... She WASN'T found in a location that had been previously searched.

It just occurred to me that the quote about multiple searches was a vague "people looked in the jungle 4 times" and had no quantification about which parts of the jungle were searched.
It was reported that Noras body was found 2.5 km from the villa
 

marhawkman

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It was reported that Noras body was found 2.5 km from the villa
Yeah, exactly. If the main bulk of the search was limited to a 2km radius, then they simply didn't search the location where she was found.
 

marhawkman

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Not in the initial seach no, according to the original reports.
Then some business offered a sizable cash reward for finding her alive, and volunteers searched a bunch of farther away spots and eventually found her?
 

Nosmo King

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Then some business offered a sizable cash reward for finding her alive, and volunteers searched a bunch of farther away spots and eventually found her?
Without looking back at the news reports, i can remember the full details, but a lot more people were brought into the search and the search area was widened, idk if it was centrally organised or disperate groups randomly searching areas that hadnt been already searched, ie outside the initial 2km radial area.
 

marhawkman

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Without looking back at the news reports, i can remember the full details, but a lot more people were brought into the search and the search area was widened, idk if it was centrally organised or disperate groups randomly searching areas that hadnt been already searched, ie outside the initial 2km radial area.
Hmmm oh found it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55338452
Lying face down on a rock close to a stream, with her hands and feet immersed in water, Nóra's unclothed body was discovered by civilian volunteer Chong Yue Fatt.
Oh wait, that doesn't really say how the search location was chosen. But it was a volunteer.
 

Nosmo King

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Hmmm oh found it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-55338452
Oh wait, that doesn't really say how the search location was chosen. But it was a volunteer.
Here are some news reports from the ime of the search,

"The 15-year-old's body was found on 13 August by the group of civilian volunteers in a palm-oil plantation about 1.5 miles from the holiday home."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-54629770

"250 people are looking for Nora Quoirin near the Malaysian resort where the family were staying and the dense jungle around it.​

They're still searching the 12 acres around the Dusun Resort where the Quoirin family are staying, but they're steadily expanding into the dense jungle around the hotel."

https://news.sky.com/story/nora-quo...15-year-old-london-girl-is-unfolding-11779834

This report states the area where Norsa body was found had been previously searched.

"That area where the body was eventually found, our personnel had actually entered but could not find any traces of the girl then as informed to me by my officers on the ground," he said, adding that the area was also included in their large-scale search-and-rescue operation over the following days.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-was-finally-found-inquest-told-39647887.html
 

marhawkman

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Here are some news reports from the ime of the search,

"The 15-year-old's body was found on 13 August by the group of civilian volunteers in a palm-oil plantation about 1.5 miles from the holiday home."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-54629770

"250 people are looking for Nora Quoirin near the Malaysian resort where the family were staying and the dense jungle around it.​

They're still searching the 12 acres around the Dusun Resort where the Quoirin family are staying, but they're steadily expanding into the dense jungle around the hotel."

https://news.sky.com/story/nora-quo...15-year-old-london-girl-is-unfolding-11779834

This report states the area where Norsa body was found had been previously searched.

"That area where the body was eventually found, our personnel had actually entered but could not find any traces of the girl then as informed to me by my officers on the ground," he said, adding that the area was also included in their large-scale search-and-rescue operation over the following days.

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-was-finally-found-inquest-told-39647887.html
Ah, I see. that's a bit different yeah. But if that location was looked at 4 days prior, it's very possible she just wasn't there yet.
 

Nosmo King

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Ah, I see. that's a bit different yeah. But if that location was looked at 4 days prior, it's very possible she just wasn't there yet.
I always thought it was possible she entered the river further upstream and her body was wash down to the location of its discovery by heavy rainfall.
 

marhawkman

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I always thought it was possible she entered the river further upstream and her body was wash down to the location of its discovery by heavy rainfall.
maybe, but the description I read makes it sound like only her hands and feet were in the water.
 

Nosmo King

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maybe, but the description I read makes it sound like only her hands and feet were in the water.
I was thinking maybe a flash flood would have taken her body down stream, her body got hung up on rocks and when the water level dropped only her extremeties remained in the water.
 

marhawkman

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I was thinking maybe a flash flood would have taken her body down stream, her body got hung up on rocks and when the water level dropped only her extremeties remained in the water.
In theory, it's a possibility. one of several I guess.
 

Yithian

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Short answer: He misrepresents the data, misrepresents his background, and attempts to sensationalize his gross misrepresentation of individual "cases". He's a flake peddling lies.

Here is a much longer answer:
https://www.amazon.com/review/R17M0...ad=Tx25GXIYGHL42A9&store=books#wasThisHelpful

You've alluded to his police background being other than he presents.

Do you know more than this?

He was charged and indicted for a misdemeanor crime that involved falsely obtaining autographs while fraudulently misrepresenting his position within the police department. His tenure fell short of the requisite 20 years required to retire and he was forced to leave with only 16.5 years. His last duty assignment was in the Court Liaison Office. Most likely he left voluntarily in lieu of being prosecuted and given an option to quit.

Assuming this is correct, Paulides certainly doesn't mention it, but at the same time, it doesn't sound so very terrible—shorn of the legal lexicon: he blagged some autographs to make some money on the side? I know people who have done worse whom I'd trust in other contexts. If you have more, please spill the beans.

My perspective having sampled book, video and audio: he believes what he is saying, and he has entered the spiral where everything he now sees (or opts not to see) is perceived in light of that belief. The publicity he generates is a means to the ends of pursuing the project that has become his life.

Notably 2012-14 Paulides is a lot less trenchant and more open to alternatives. Of late he has, I'll put this delicately, begun to echo the tone and suspicions of right-wing political conspiracists; I can see no legitimate link between these tendencies and his work on missing people.

He'd do well to sequester his views on such subjects, but given the trauma his has been through and the current climate in the U.S., I'm almost certain he won't.
 

Austin Popper

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It has been a while, and I really have no interest in digging into that stuff again, but I saw several different sources of the police stuff. Hard to tell with unions involved, but the autograph stuff seemed pretty slimy. He allegedly got celebrity autographs by sending requests on official letterhead, claiming it was for charity, then sold them privately. Much more than just collecting and selling on the side. He appears to have been allowed to "retire" and have charges dropped, something like that. It was not what I would call a sign of good character.

More annoying to me is his insinuation that he was a police detective. He's pretty cagey about how he phrases it, but he was apparently just an ordinary beat cop. Nothing wrong with that of course, unless he tries to pretend otherwise. I do know that people who have made detective don't like that crap very much. There is a big difference in the two titles and the training required.

I've seen several critiques of his books from different sources, some of which claim his lists of missing people include some whose deaths were found to be very ordinary when the bodies were found, long before he wrote the books, and even some people who were found safe soon after they had "vanished". I can't personally vouch for any of that, of course, but the critiques came from established sources and not some random blog.

Then there is his web site. You don't get very far into that before you run into his endorsement of Melba Ketchum and her farce of an investigation of Bigfoot, which ended up with her claiming the furry giants are angelic or some crapola. I'm seeing a pattern here.

I can't imagine what it must have been like for him when his son died, and he has my sympathy. I've not commented on his work since that happened, I'm pretty sure. Also, I have no doubt there are many fascinating stories in his books, and they may well be highly entertaining, but I don't consider him to be a very credible source of information. Having some experience with Park Service employees and such, many of whom are friends of mine, I have a hard time with his claims of some conspiracy of silence. I strongly suspect he is considered a crank by a lot of those who have had to deal with him.

If you insist, I'll go and dig up some links for you. I was considering investing in some of his books (the marketing of which is also contentious) and decided I needed to do some checking first. What I found was not encouraging. That was some years ago, so I'd be pretty well starting from scratch again.
 

marhawkman

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You've alluded to his police background being not what as he presents it. Do you know more than this?

He was charged and indicted for a misdemeanor crime that involved falsely obtaining autographs while fraudulently misrepresenting his position within the police department. His tenure fell short of the requisite 20 years required to retire and he was forced to leave with only 16.5 years. His last duty assignment was in the Court Liaison Office. Most likely he left voluntarily in lieu of being prosecuted and given an option to quit.

Assuming this is correct, Paulides certainly doesn't mention it, but at the same time, it doesn't sound so very terrible—shorn of the legal lexicon: he blagged some autographs to make some money on the side? I know people who have done worse whom I'd trust in other contexts. If you have more, please spill the beans.

My perspective having sampled book, video and audio: he believes what he is saying, and he has entered the spiral where everything he now sees (or opta not to see) is perceived in light of that belief. The publicity he generates is a means to the ends of pursuing the project that has become his life.

Notably 2012-14 Paulides is a lot less trenchant and more open to alternatives. Of late he has, I'll put this delicately, begun to echo the tone and suspicions of right-wing political conspiracists; I can see no legitimate link between these tendencies and his work on missing people.

He'd do well to sequester his views on such subjects, but given the trauma his has been through and the current climate in the U.S., I'm almost certain he won't.
A part of why it was seen as a crime is that he lied about why he was collecting autographs. I doubt people would have cared if he'd just asked for them. https://web.archive.org/web/2021042...rpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no
S.J. OFFICER ACCUSED OF FALSE SOLICITATION AUTOGRAPHS: A FORCE VETERAN ALLEGEDLY USED CITY STATIONERY TO ASK FOR MEMORABILIA. Author: SANDRA GONZALES, Mercury News Staff Writer
Date: December 21, 1996
Publication: San Jose Mercury News (CA) Page: 1B
Wordcount: 496
When a veteran San Jose police officer began soliciting celebrity autographs on city stationery, he wound up with more than just a friendly letter from singer Lionel Richie to hang on his wall.

He also got an arrest warrant last week charging him with a misdemeanor count of falsely soliciting for charity - a crime for which he could face a year in jail.

Officer David Paul Paulides, 40, aroused suspicions after he was seen using city stationery on the department's computer printers....
In theory you could read the full story on the SJ newspaper website, if you pay for access.

Oh I managed to find a text-only copy on Reddit:
DAVID PAULIDES S.J. OFFICER ACCUSED OF FALSE SOLICITATION AUTOGRAPHS: A FORCE VETERAN ALLEGEDLY USED CITY STATIONERY TO ASK FOR MEMORABILIA.

San Jose Mercury News (CA) – Saturday, December 21, 1996

Author: SANDRA GONZALES, Mercury News Staff Writer

When a veteran San Jose police officer began soliciting celebrity autographs on city stationery, he wound up with more than just a friendly letter from singer Lionel Richie to hang on his wall. He also got an arrest warrant last week charging him with a misdemeanour count of falsely soliciting for charity – a crime for which he could face a year in jail.

Officer David Paul Paulides, 40, aroused suspicions after he was seen using city stationery on the department’s computer printers. Paulides also sent and received large quantities of unofficial mail at the department, police reports say. None of those activities fell within his duties as a court liaison officer, prompting an internal investigation that began last September.

“He’s an autograph hound,” said Assistant District Attorney Karyn Sinunu, who filed the complaint last week in Municipal Court. “It was a stupid thing to do – to spend your time enhancing your personal collection when taxpayers are paying for you to work.”

Suspicions were heightened when the police department received a phone call from a Los Angeles publicist asking to speak with Paulides about the “Police Hall of Fame,” and a letter from the Lionel Richie Fan Club which enclosed an autographed compact disc by the singer. As it turned out, Paulides had solicited autographs from such people as newswoman Diane Sawyer, astronaut Mae Jemison, model Carol Alt, exercise guru Jack La Lanne and Ivana Trump – allegedly by falsely claiming he was working on a city project.

In the letter to Trump, for example, Paulides wrote: “You are a great role model for young women. . . . I’ve been given the task by my city to develop a display for our lobby of successful businesswomen. . . . We are respectfully requesting an autographed photo for our display. . . . Your success on a professional as well as personal level make, you a superior businesswoman and mother.”

Several of the celebrities had returned autographed photographs of themselves.

Paulides attorney Daniel Jensen claims it was all an unfortunate misunderstanding. “He feels badly and is embarrassed,” Jensen said. Jensen said that the officer was gathering the autographs to serve as teaching aids for a class he had taught and that Paulides had envisioned hanging the pictures in the department’s lobby. “They were to be inspirational examples of people who’ve done very well,” Jensen said.

Authorities, however, say there was no authorized “Hall of Fame” being developed for any lobby. They could find nothing Paulides was associated with in an official capacity that would give him the authority to seek autographs on the department’s behalf.

Paulides was one of several instructors who taught a city-sponsored organizational development class, but he had not taught the course since March. Police spokesman Officer Louis Quezada said Paulides is on vacation. Quezada could not say what sort of job action the department might take against Paulides. Jensen, however, said possible repercussions range from disciplinary action to termination from the department where Paulides has worked since 1980.

Paulides surrendered to authorities last week and was released. He is expected to be arraigned next month in Municipal Court.”

Yeah... his crime was severe enough that a warrant was issued for his arrest. That is a death sentence for your career as a police officer(unless it's shown to have been in error, but it wasn't in this case).

Paulides was apparently given "early retirement"(at 16.5 years, 1980-1996) instead of being openly kicked off the force and locked up in jail. Also despite "retiring" in 1996 he apparently didn't get a pension until 2011. http://old.sjretirement.com/Uploads/PF/Minutes - June 2011 (Signed).pdf

"Deferred Vested Retirement"... heh.
 
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