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Deaths Related To Video Games / Gamers / Gaming

tzb57r said:
I must also dispute the idea that this adolescent must be mentally ill, just because he killed someone with a knife or a hammer. The majority of murders in the UK as elsewhere in the world are committed by someone known to the victim and with weapons of convenience. In the UK this will normally be a knife or blunt object. I do not know what the circumstances of the murder were, violent argument or premeditated, but neither of these point to a mental illness.

Fair point - I guess I was making the connection that "this is something that I cannot possibly see myself doing, so there must have been something wrong in that person's head". Not that by saying that I am implying that I have the perfect balance (Could somebody pass me a ladder - this hole I'm digging appears to be getting deeper).

What I would say is that, no matter which way you slice it behaviour of this kind is not what is considered to be normal - again, not suggesting that there is a mental disorder here, but it would have to be something that should (and I feel sure will) be considered.

And as for violence in mainstream media, how about Tom and Jerry - some of those writer's must have been sick, sick puppies!

Again, though, whatever the cause the whole thing is a tragedy for all concerned - lives will never be the same again.

Apologies if I offended anyone.
 
Has anyone other than me actually played the game? if so; thoughts?

I didn't think it was as bad as the original article put it, as the only people you're killing in it are those intent on killing you. There are far worse games out there, and far worse things than games.

I think we're all agreed that this is a completely irrational knee-jerk reaction designed to hide from the real reasons that the boy did this. Aren't we?
 
This may be a good time to relink to the Violence In Media: Urban Myth thread

and I want to quote again from one of the better articles about media violence, because I think it fits this thread as much as it did the other one:

It's easy to believe that violence is getting worse: We hear about it all the time. It's easy to believe that mock violence in media is influencing behavior: What other violence do suburban kids see? Without question, popular culture is a lot more raucous than it used to be. It's a wild pageant, and it scares the culture police. But however many national leaders and prestigious institutions endorse the theory, it's a fraud. There's no evidence that mock violence in media makes people violent, and there's some evidence that it makes people more peaceful.

To start with, take a look at Col. Dave's claim about improved medical technology saving potential homicides. Of 1.5 million violent crimes in the U.S. in 1998, 17,000 were murders. Of the remaining number, according to the FBI, only 20,331 resulted in major injuries (the rest produced minor physical injuries or none at all). So if all the assault victims with major injuries had also died - improbable even with 1930's medicine - the 1998 U.S. murder rate would only have been double what it was - that is, would have been about 13 per 100,000 population rather than 6.3. But even 13 is well below the 23 per 100,000 murder rate of 13th-century England, the 45 per 100,000 of 15th-century Sweden, the 47 per 100,000 of 15th-century Amsterdam. We don't live in "the most violent era in peacetime human history"; we live in one of the least violent eras in peacetime human history.

Jib Fowles, a slight, handsome media scholar at the University of Houston at Clear Lake, worked his way through the media effects literature carefully and thoroughly when he was researching a book on the subject, mischievously titled The Case for Television Violence, which was published last year. Although Grossman and others are fond of claiming that there have been more than 2,500 studies showing a connection between violent media and aggressive behavior (the number actually refers to the entire bibliography of a major government report on the subject), the independent literature reviews Fowles consulted identified only between one and two hundred studies, the majority of them laboratory studies. Very few studies have looked at media effects in the real world, and even fewer have followed the development of children exposed to violent media over a period of years.

In typical laboratory studies, researchers require a control group of children to watch a "neutral" segment of a television show while a test group watches a segment which includes what the researchers believe to be violent content - an actor or a cartoon character pretending to assault other actors or cartoon characters. Both segments are taken out of context, although sometimes the children watch entire shows. After this exposure, the researchers observe the children at play together or interacting with toys to see if they behave in ways the researchers consider aggressive. Aggression may mean merely verbal aggression, or rough play such as pushing and shoving, or hitting. Hitting is a rare outcome in these experiments; the usual outcome is verbal banter or rough play. Since the researchers, by the very act of showing the tapes, have implicitly endorsed the behavior they require the kids to watch, and further endorse the kids' response by standing around counting aggressive acts rather than expressing disapproval or intervening as a teacher or parent might do, the experimental arrangement is not exactly neutral.
 
a fine post Mr R.I.N.G.

the media loves its moral panics. I sugguest every ones reads cohens (no, not leonard) work this this subject :D
 
BriceFandango said:
Has anyone other than me actually played the game? if so; thoughts?

Not bad but not brilliant, shocking in it's brutallity initially but none of the deaths shown are any gorier than those shown in the movies. Let's face it if this tragedy hadn't happened and the accompanying furore this mediocre title would be in the bargain bins within a couple of months.
 
Video games: just another patsy for an irresponsible public trying to vindicate a murderer. They tried with movies, then with TV, and with music, I think they even got some quacks trying to say the way one dressed can be blamed. And now that video games have gone beyond the little 8-bit blips and goofy sounds, they are getting blamed too.
 
Mind you it could explain my urge to become a plumber and grow a big fluffy moustache...

Not to mention my snazzy red and blue overalls.
 
River_Styx said:
Mind you it could explain my urge to become a plumber and grow a big fluffy moustache...

Not to mention my snazzy red and blue overalls.
:rofl: should you find yourself attempting to jump on people or throw fireballs, seeking help is advised! Eating random mushrooms is also best avoided :D
 
The worst time was when I tried to jump down the toilet in an attempt to gain access to the hidden secrets room. I know it's down there I just need a way in!


Or it might have been trying to fly wearing a Davy Crocket hat and a feather...But I only had to call one emergency service that day.
 
River_Styx said:
The worst time was when I tried to jump down the toilet in an attempt to gain access to the hidden secrets room. I know it's down there I just need a way in!


...
Is this 'Super Mario', or 'Trainspotting' we're talking about here? :confused:
 
AndroMan said:
Is this 'Super Mario', or 'Trainspotting' we're talking about here? :confused:

Yes, yes.

Just after finishing my OBSESSION with Super Mario I was unfortunately hurled into a NIGHTMARISH EXISTENCE of substance abuse because I watched TRAINSPOTTING. I was seventeen and a half years old at the time, obviously not prepared for such ADULT SITUATIONS when I was so UNDERAGE. Luckily I now steer clear of such dark material and spend most days just sitting in the dark on my own, rocking back and forth, checking for bugs under my skin and wearing my tinfoil hat....

*This post was brought to you in TABLOID-O-VISION and has realistic flesh tones*
 
Lord Flasheart, excellent avatar!, but remember, he only said he'd done it so they'd take the cheese grater off his nipples.

Anyway, I'm going to start a campaign to stop B&Q from selling hammers, this is clearly an incitement to murder in my books on behalve of large DIY superstores.

I blame it all on that Tommy Walsh bloke, blatantly swinging hammers around and drilling things on TV, and before the 9pm watershed too !!

Lets return to the good old days of TV, bring back The Magic Roundabout :D Wait a minute, Zebedee....., wasn't he that fellow locked inside a box for about 23 hours a day ?

Sound a bit to much like autoerotic asphyxiation to me :eek!!!!:


Wouldn't want some kid who's a couple of sandwiches short of a full deck of cards getting the wrong idea.
 
Murder game a sell-out in city

FIONA MACGREGOR AND GARETH EDWARDS


A VIOLENT and graphic computer game linked to the murder of a British teenager has been selling out in Edinburgh following calls for it to be banned.

Shops across the Capital have reported a huge surge of interest in Manhunt after it was connected to the murder of 14-year-old Stefan Pakeerah.

High street giant HMV and the independent Games and Movies store have sold out of the "murder simulator", while up to 35 people a day have been asking for copies at another Capital games store.

Stefan’s family have condemned the controversial game as "evil" and called for it to be banned.

Manhunt, which was developed by Edinburgh-based Rockstar North, rewards players for killing characters in various brutal ways.

Several stores have taken it off their shelves following the controversy surrounding the murder trial, but others are now struggling to keep up with the renewed demand.

Despite the furore, the game has still been short-listed for an award at Edinburgh’s international computer games festival.

The PlayStation 2 and XBox game was last week blamed for inciting Warren Leblanc, 17, to murder Stefan in a brutal attack. The 14-year-old was battered and stabbed to death by Leblanc, who faces life behind bars after pleading guilty to the murder at Leicester Crown Court.

Big name stores including Virgin, Dixons, Currys, PC World and Game all withdrew the product last week after Stefan’s mother Giselle, 36, claimed Leblanc was "obsessed" with the game. She has called for it to be banned.

HMV has sold out of the game at both its Princes Street and St James Centre stores. An assistant at the St James Centre branch said further copies of the game had been ordered and were due within a week to ten days.

James Macpherson, owner of independent store Games and Movies on Dalry Road, said the game had not been a big seller until the publicity of the court case.

"We were maybe selling one copy a month and I was waiting for the price to drop for sales to pick up again.

"But since there’s been all this publicity, lots of people have been trying to get it. Yesterday alone we had seven people come in asking for it.

"I only had two copies in the shop and they went as soon as it was in the news, but people have been pre-ordering it. People are hunting around everywhere for it."


Mr Macpherson said he expected to be getting in more copies of Manhunt in the near future because suppliers would be receiving returned games from those stores which had cleared it from their shelves.

He said: "To be perfectly honest, my policy with games such as this, is that there’s no problem as long as people are over 18. The problem was, in this circumstance, someone under 18 got hold of the game."

Rikki Bateman, manager of Games- masters on Leith Walk, said he had taken copies of Manhunt off the shelves because he was unsure of the legal and moral implications. But he said there had been a huge number of requests since the case hit the headlines.

"On average, we had been selling one or two a week, but since then I have had about 70 people ask for it, 35 on the first day."

During the inquiry into Stefan’s murder, it emerged that Leblanc had armed himself with a knife and clawhammer, both weapons used in the game, before luring the younger boy to a park and carrying out the attack. In the game, players control James Earl Cash, a murderer sentenced to death but spared execution by a snuff film-maker. He is then set loose on the run-down streets of Carcer City where the director instructs him to kill gangs of hoodlums in increasingly brutal ways.

Edinburgh-based clinical corporate psychologist Ben Williams said there was a clear link between video game violence and an increasing level of violence on the streets, adding: "As soon as something is designated out of bounds, too risky, or downright evil this will create artificial demand."

Organisers of the Edinburgh International Games Festival said today they would not withdraw Manhunt from this month’s award nominations.

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=889552004
 
A link between violent video games and violence on the street?
Possibly. Violent games will be more popular in a violent society. doersn't mean they cause that violence.

I've played the Fallout games an embarrassing number of times, and I've never once set off a nuclear (sorry, nukular) device.
 
Likewise, I've never slashed anyone for 9999 damage with a viciously huge sword, nor shot at anyone with a BFG, destroyed any Rebel Scum Pilots in their X-Wings, eaten any ghosts, violently stomped on any mushrooms, or driven over anyone. ;)

So let me get this straight... if I kill someone with a toy moogle and I am found with copies of "Final Fantasy", immediately the game is blamed because they feature moogles? By the same token, if I accidentally drive over someone and I'm found with copies of Gran Turismo, the game is to blame because it has cars in it??? :D I like the idea how none of this is my fault anymore!!
 
I do wonder how many people who have taken E used to play Pacman in their younger days...

And I'm still trying to get my hedgehog into a pair of red sneakers. Damn him and his tiny feet I say.
 
Did anyone see the update to this story?

Seems, the copy of Manhunt was found in the Victim's room, not the perpetrator, according to Police sources.

Strange that.

LD
 
lorddrakul said:
Did anyone see the update to this story?

Seems, the copy of Manhunt was found in the Victim's room, not the perpetrator, according to Police sources.

Strange that.

LD

Yes like the Bulger case being blamed on Chucky when it wasn't even clear if the boys had seen it. Full stroy:

New twist in Manhunt controversy

03 August 2004 by Tim Green

The story of the “Manhunt” murder case took another twist with the revelation that the game was present in the victim’s home, not the killer’s.

Narinder Pooni, media services officer for Leicestershire Police, told MCV: “Apparently the game was found but it was in Stefan Pakeerah’s bedroom.”

Pakeerah was murdered by his friend Warren Leblanc in February.

While this fact does not in itself undermine the allegation made by Pakeerah’s mother and the Daily Mail that Leblanc was influenced by Manhunt, it does make the issue more complex. It also raises questions such as whether the 14 year old victim owned the game. And if so, who bought it for him?

As for the link between Manhunt and the crime, the police are clear. Pooni said: “We haven’t connected the game with the murder and we’ve already made that statement, but some sections of the media chose to ignore it…the motive was robbery.”

http://www.mcvuk.com/html/news/story.jsp?newsId=1928139
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/18/tech/main636758.shtml

Cyber Brawls Spilling Into Streets
LOS ANGELES, Aug. 18, 2004


(AP) Six days a week, teens crowd the Blue Screen Gaming cybercafe to hunt each other down with assault rifles inside virtual worlds created by a network of personal computers.

They sit for hours, eyes fixed on their flashing monitors, their headphones trapping the racket of simulated gunfire so only random clicks on keyboards are heard — until the storefront salon erupts in triumphant yelps and laughter.

"Ooh! That was beautiful," hoots Ricardo Gama, 16, after a friend lobs a grenade to kill three opponents playing the terrorist-fighting game "Counter Strike: Source Beta."

At gaming cybercafes the world over, pixelated warfare is joined and nobody gets hurt. But real-life episodes of violence at several such businesses in southern California have prompted municipal crackdowns; Los Angeles is the latest, and largest, California city to impose restrictions.

Beginning Saturday, an ordinance mandates that the city's 30 Internet gaming parlors enforce the city's long-standing curfew for minors and pay for in-store surveillance cameras. There are other restrictions, among them limits on how many computers each business can operate and the prohibition of dark window coverings.

Cybercafe owners are chafing.

"There may have been problems with certain individual locations, but those could have been handled another way other than with blanketwide legislation," said Ernest Miller, a spokesman for San Francisco-based iGames, which represents about 500 PC gaming parlors in the United States and abroad.

Blue Screen owner Lisa Woo-Rogers says she has never had any violence problems at her establishment.

"This is going to cost an outpour of money that we weren't necessarily going to spend," she complained.

California municipalities are alone in passing specific laws covering Internet gaming parlors, though some cities have sought to apply existing arcade zoning laws to the gaming cafes, Miller said.

Several shootings near cybercafes in 2002, two of them fatal, prompted the LA ordinance, which passed last month. In one of the fatal shootings, witnesses told police that the victim, a member of an Asian gang, was at an LA cybercafe hours before his body was found. In the other homicide, the victim was shot at an Internet cafe in the San Fernando Valley. The next month and not far away, one youth was shot in the leg and another severely beaten at separate cybercafes.

In addition, a Los Angeles police analysis found that 86 percent of the 134 people arrested at cybercafes were minors, most for curfew and truancy violations. Officials became convinced that the cafes tend to be gang havens.

"We wanted to put in measures before we have future problems," said Councilman Dennis Zine, who proposed the ordinance.

Miller takes issue with the theory that cybercafes are more of a magnet for gangs than any other place at which youths might congregate.

"A haven for gang activity can be any location where people gather — corner liquor stores, pool halls or cinemas," Miller said. A business's location can be a major factor, he said.

Miller, who operates an Internet gaming parlor in Whittier, also blames sensationalist media coverage, which he maintains wrongly links violent video games with real-world violence.

Since Los Angeles began mulling its own ordinance more than a year ago, there have been no reports of serious crimes associated with cybercafes, said Los Angeles Police Lt. Debra A. Kirk.

"They realized they had to clean up their own act," Kirk said. "They've been self-regulating in anticipation of this ordinance."

Woo-Rogers maintains that her cafe has long adhered to the city's curfew, which prohibits those under 18 from roaming the streets during school hours or after 10 p.m. without a guardian.

She estimates that it will now cost her ,500 to install video surveillance and buy a police permit. Other operators, especially those who have crowded computers into small spaces, could be forced to turn customers away or spend on costly refurbishment (the ordinance has per-computer space requirements).

Still, the Los Angeles regulations are "very reasonable," Miller said, compared to some earlier ordinances such as one enacted in Garden Grove. That city passed an ordinance requiring businesses to log customers, have an adult and security guard present, limit hours and videotape their premises.

Initially, Garden Grove also required businesses to apply for special operating permits that typically cost thousands of dollars. But a state appellate court struck down the special permits requirement.

Other cities that neighbor Los Angeles, including Diamond Bar and the Orange County communities of Santa Ana and Orange Grove, have also regulated the cafes.

For teen devotees of the cybercafes such as Gama, the regulations may just end up curtailing their fun.

The Culver City teen was disappointed to hear he might be asked to stop playing after 10 p.m. if he's not accompanied by an adult.

"Sometimes we stay in other places until 2 a.m.," Gama said. "If I can't stay until the time I want, well, what can I do about it?"
 
Lack of fantasy/reality understanding

The question I always have in these sorts of things -- and here stateside there's the same sort of share of 'blame the game' mentality, tho strangely "GTA" got slammed more than "Manhunt" -- is the level of involvement of parents in their kids' young lives.

It seems as if these youngsters who claim to be or are imitating games don't have a secure handle on fantasy vs. reality, which is something that I learned quite young. It was with the "Thriller" video, actually, which my mom and dad must not have expected to end the way it does, because it frightened quite young me very badly. (I could have been no older than 3 or 4 at the time.) So naturally, I get a bit squirmish during the zombie dancing scenes, but the yellow eyes thing must have really upset me, and my dad turned off the television and calmly explained that Michael Jackson was wearing makeup and that a lot of what is on television is no more real than the fairy tales I liked reading at the time.

One has to wonder with television seeming to replace basic human interaction in a lot of kids' lives whether they're missing out on that most basic of lessons -- someone explicitly explaining the difference between fantasy and reality. Kids are so often thought of merely as pint-sized adults when in fact their minds don't quite work in the same ways a grown-ups will ... which is why they'll bust out with odd questions at odd times. Could it be that society is simply trusting that kids will implicitly learn when action on television, in movies, and by extension in games is fantastical and when it's real? Seems like that's a bit of a risk.

Or I could just be reading too much into the "phenomenon.".... ;)
 
All valid points but you answer your own questions by stating that firstly you watched Thriller with your parents and secondly that they explained to you afterwards that it wasn't real.
There has not been much mention of whether or not the victim's mother knew what the game was about or how her son got to own a copy when he was below the age rating. Fair enough a parent can't watch their child 24/7 but they can still exercise some control over what's happening in their life and involve themselves in it.
Our whole society has now become fixed upon shifting the blame for its mistakes and that's what's truly the problem. There are only so many times you can hear the cry of "Oh my little Timmy would never have done this if he hadn't seen..." without yelling back "Well where the hell were you and his father...?" It's really quite pathetic when you stop to think about it.
 
Re: Lack of fantasy/reality understanding

Renigirl said:
. Could it be that society is simply trusting that kids will implicitly learn when action on television, in movies, and by extension in games is fantastical and when it's real? Seems like that's a bit of a risk.

Or I could just be reading too much into the "phenomenon.".... ;)

The point is, whether you have a reality / fantasy distinction problem or not it is a big leap from "wow is that real?" to "I will now re-enact what I have seen" that is more a breakdown in the ability to distinguish right and wrong.

Besides it emerged that the facts of this particular case were actually a robbery gone wrong.
 
Facts? What have they got to do with anything?

Seriously though, I have the perception that there is a cultural difference between the moal panics in the US and the UK. Especially with respect to GTA. There seems to nave been some cases of teens in the US going gun happy, getting caught and then trying to shift the blame onto the game which warped their fragile little minds. Personally I suspect this is their lawyers trying to get them off. I doubt the little sods could think of it on their own.

In the UK when one of these thankfully rare cases crop up, it tends to be the tabloids casting around for a scapegoat, or indeed anything to add salacious detail to the story. Films/videogames are an easy target. It's a bit like the Daily Mail trying to claim that the 9/11 hijackers had used Micro$oft Flight simulator to train, despite there not being a shred of evidence.
 
Re: Lack of fantasy/reality understanding

Renigirl said:
So naturally, I get a bit squirmish during the zombie dancing scenes, but the yellow eyes thing must have really upset me, and my dad turned off the television and calmly explained that Michael Jackson was wearing makeup and that a lot of what is on television is no more real than the fairy tales I liked reading at the time.

How does your dad explain Michael Jackson now? :D
 
Seriously though, I have the perception that there is a cultural difference between the moal panics in the US and the UK. Especially with respect to GTA. There seems to nave been some cases of teens in the US going gun happy, getting caught and then trying to shift the blame onto the game which warped their fragile little minds.

I think you may be right. I can only remember one case involving GTA off the top of my head, but it had to do with two young teen boys in Tennessee who took it upon themselves to shoot at traffic from an interstate overpass. Can't remember if they killed anyone or not. They blamed GTA: Vice City, which I thought odd since you don't shoot at people from overpasses in the game, really. But I guess it could have been a broader shooting thing.

But then there was all that mess surrounding Columbine with the music the two shootists had listened to. That seemed to be a bit drummed up by the media (to the best of my memory).

The sad fact is that shifting the blame is easier than saying "I screwed up. I did something that is blatantly wrong," and shifting blame is certainly easier than a parent having to think about whether they had a hand in the blame or not.

Oh, and,
How does your dad explain Michael Jackson now?

LMAO. Pretty much the same way: Wearing makeup, lives in Neverland, that sorta thing. :D
 
I seem to recall this debate going on for some time now, in one form or another. It's either computer games, TV, The internet, violent sports etc that are blamed for the inherant violence within us all.

Lets us not forget that human beings have been fighting, killing, maiming and torturing each other since the first ape picked up his first club back in Africa thousands of years ago.

The media get apoplectic when something insignifigant like this happens in our daily lives, why?, This is our natural state of being.
Take a look at whats been going on in Iraq if you don't believe me, thousands of men, women, and children dead or injured because the US needs cheap oil for it's cars.

Now don't get me wrong, I really don't give a flying crap what happens over there, it has no bearing on my daily life, and so means nothing to me. what annoys me is the press and authority figures decrying something because 'it may instigate violence', I hate to say it, but I fear thats shutting the door once the horse has bolted.



Hear end'th the lecture, go in peace you homicidal, psychotic perverts.
 
on the blame thing did anyone else see Marilyn Manson's very good interview in Bowling for Columbine? (IIRC he was blamed as the inspiration for that one) pays not to pick a well educated eloquent person as a scapegoat as he refuted most of the points against him.
 
Tony states the bleeding obvious

Blair reveals some games 'unsuitable' for kids
By Tony Smith
Published Wednesday 15th September 2004 16:09 GMT
Prime Minister Tony Blair today voiced his support for the UK's game certification system, which offers parents an indication of which titles are suitable for given age groups and provides a legal framework to fine or imprison retailers who sell adult-oriented games to kids.

Actually, he didn't say that at all. Blair today told parliament that the game Manhunt, alleged to have been involved in the murder of Leicester teenager Stefan Pakeerah, was "wholly unsuitable for children".

Despite this current legal framework, Blair said he would discuss the matter with Home Secretary David Blunkett, suggesting the possibility of further legislation. He said that while responsible adults should be allowed to choose what games they play, children needed to be protected.

The PM's comments came in answer to a request from Leicester East MP Keith Vaz for yet another investigation between violent games and violent actions.

Vaz asked the question on behalf of Pakeerah's parents, who believe the game was a direct cause of their son's death at the hands of Warren Leblanc, 17, who pleaded guilty to the crime in July.

Local police, however, discounted the claim during their investigation of Pakeerah's death. Indeed, it subsequently emerged that Manhunt had been owned by the victim, not his killer.

Pakeerah's parents are already taking legal action against Manhunt published Sony Computer Entertainment Europe. They are seeking £50m in compensation for the loss of their son. Sony and the game's developer, Rockstar Games, along with the British Board of Film Classification - which also certifies games - have rejected the alleged link between the murder and the game.

At this stage, it's unclear how Pakeerah came by his copy of Manhunt. Aged 14, he was certainly too young to buy it, legally. Any retailer found guilty of selling a game to someone insufficiently old enough to buy it faces up to six months in gaol and a fine of up to £5000 if found guilty. Those penalties could be increased, but so far there's nothing to stop unwitting - or fully aware - parents buying adult games on behalf of their children. There is no evidence to suggest that this is how Pakeerah obtained Manhunt.

As for Vaz's call for further research into potential links between violent games and violent acts, it's something of a red herring. Even assuming such a link is found - and on the basis of past research that remains unlikely - what then? Short of banning violent games and movies altogether, there's little that can be done beyond what the law states already: that it's wrong to sell adult games to children. ®

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09/15/blair_on_violent_games/
 
ot here

WANTED!:- a group of like minded adventurers to sign up to go around looting graves etc, steal peoples belongings, and kill people, and other life forms.

basic weapons and clothing will be supplied, and upgrades can be acquied, and as much money as you can carry or "bank".

are YOU interested? if so! please apply to any rpg game. :D

--------------------------------

i like to play rpg (d&d games) and these games dont make me want to go out and beat the sh1t out of orcs, wizards etc or kill them, steal etc.

maybe cos theres a distinct lack of orcs, giant spiders etc walking around towns and countryside? :confused:
 
This is true.

People will blame anything for anything whether or not they are even remotely connected.

I'd love to post more but I have to meet some friends in the tunnels under the nearby University campus.
 
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