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Dennis Nilsen's Sandwiches

Lord_Flashheart said:
according to my dad (who was a prison officer in brixton dureing the early 80's) Nilssen's reasons for killing was that he couldn't ever bear being alone so if people wanted to leave him (after a one night stand or whatever) then he would kill them so he could keep them close by for company. This behavior started after the death of his grandmother when he kept her body on the bed upstairs for some time refuseing to accept that she was dead.

Don't know how accurate that is but as it was the tale going around the prison where he was being kept I'd presume it's not a million miles away from his motives.

Apparetly Nilssen took well to prison life quite well.
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Hence the name of the book on Nilsen 'Killing for company' by Brian Masters
and also rather disturbingly a song by The Swans
 
The anecdote conecting Nielsen's flat to Dr Who producer John Nathan Turner and his partner Gary Downie comes, I believe, from a very bitter interview that Gary Downie gave to Dr Who magazine last year.
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*blush* It's just been pointed out to me that said interview was where I came across the anecdote in the first place, d'oh.
It was a very bitter interview, wasn't it?
 
"It's just been pointed out to me that said interview was where I came across the anecdote in the first place, d'oh.
It was a very bitter interview, wasn't it?"


Yes, taken in context, Gary Downie's partner had died fairly recently before the interview but, that said, he did come across as a very bitter man.

I'm sure that you could generate a whole chain of urban myths around Doctor Who - ie Tony Hancock really invented the daleks, the first episode was transmitted live, various alien races were designed by school children as part of a "design a monster competion", a friend of a friend recently watched a copy of epiosde 6 of Web of Fear (or choose any one of 100+ "missing" episodes), the BBC management so hated Dr Who in the late eighties that it was deliberately scheduled against Corontation Street in order to kill it off (oh, actually that last one's true...)
 
That's pretty much what Brian Masters' Killing For Company says as well.

I'm not fond of Masters' writing style. He seems far too keen to empathise with the murderers.
 
I'm sure that you could generate a whole chain of urban myths around Doctor Who
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Not forgetting 'Kate Bush wrote Kinda', 'Harold Pinter was in The Abominable Snowman', 'Hartnell's scenes for The 3 Doctors were shot in his garage' and, um, I'm not sure whether the rumours surrounding Troughton's death count as urban legends or just unashamedly juvenile filth-mongering.
 
I'm not sure whether the rumours surrounding Troughton's death count as urban legends or just unashamedly juvenile filth-mongering.
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I can;t say I've heard those?
 
"I'm not sure whether the rumours surrounding Troughton's death count as urban legends or just unashamedly juvenile filth-mongering."


A bit of both I should imagine...

another favourite fan pass time is speculating which companion got jiggy with which doctor off screen (aside from the obvious ones that were married to each other , ie Lalla and Tom Baker, Jean Marsh and Jon Pertwee). One actress, allegedly, has managed to notch up three "doctors" on her bed post...
 
I can;t say I've heard those?
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Just PM'd them to you. Fairly predictable stuff though.

another favourite fan pass time is speculating which companion got jiggy with which doctor off screen
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And who did what with whose coffee table, of course.
Ah, it's a puerile life but a happy one in Dr Who fandom...
 
Swan said:
Lord_Flashheart said:
according to my dad (who was a prison officer in brixton dureing the early 80's) Nilssen's reasons for killing was that he couldn't ever bear being alone so if people wanted to leave him (after a one night stand or whatever) then he would kill them so he could keep them close by for company. This behavior started after the death of his grandmother when he kept her body on the bed upstairs for some time refuseing to accept that she was dead.

Don't know how accurate that is but as it was the tale going around the prison where he was being kept I'd presume it's not a million miles away from his motives.

Apparetly Nilssen took well to prison life quite well.
Click to expand...

Hence the name of the book on Nilsen 'Killing for company' by Brian Masters
and also rather disturbingly a song by The Swans
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Dosen't surprise me, I'm sure brian masters would have interveiwed prison officers responcible for his care and D.N. himself. Dose kind of conferm my Dads story though and that of the other officers... in most cases there may have been exageration but I suspect this was a case you can't really exagerate to make it seem more grusome... even the story about the sandwiches dosen't shock as much as the reality of what happened.
 
Mystified

Lord_Flashheart said:
...

Dosen't surprise me, I'm sure brian masters would have interveiwed prison officers responcible for his care and D.N. himself. Dose kind of conferm my Dads story though and that of the other officers... in most cases there may have been exageration but I suspect this was a case you can't really exagerate to make it seem more grusome... even the story about the sandwiches dosen't shock as much as the reality of what happened.
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Of course, the real question is, why would anybody want to believe anything a serial killer sociopath like Nielsen would have to say? Someone who had still been able to hold down a civil service job and even socialize with his unsuspecting co-workers, until he ran out of hiding places for the mortal remains of his victims.
 
This whole case intrigued my mother and I and i remember us sitting watching the news together to find out the latest. After his imprisonment Mum bought me a book which went through Neilsons life story, how they caught him etc. I was reading it when i was taken into hospital for minor surgery and when i'd had my pre-med i couldn't stop laughing whilst reading. One of the more senior nurses accused me of being a 'sick individual' :roll:
 
IIRC hadn't DN worked as a policeman for a while, and resigned after he refused to arrest two gay men having sex in a car?
 
Re: Dennis Nilson's sandwhiches...

BlackRiverFalls said:
Anyone else heard this UL?
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I've not read the thread so it may have been mensioned but...

If I remembe rit's coverd in Killing for Company by Brian Masters ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 29-7728667) only, if i remember corectly it was over a curry he made...

As you corectly identify BRF he wasn't a canable and the department he worked for was the Job Centre where he was well liked and (I think) a union rep.
 
Re: Dennis Nilson's sandwhiches...

The Virgin Queen said:
BlackRiverFalls said:
Anyone else heard this UL?
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I've not read the thread so it may have been mensioned but...

the department he worked for was the Job Centre where he was well liked and (I think) a union rep.
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Oops! Ravinstone got there first!
 
Heckler said:
BlackRiverFalls said:
I think the hacked up bodies in bin liners in his wardrobe were more of a give-away. And IIRC a few under the floorboards too?
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He used to put them under his floor boards but then he was relocated by the council to an upper floor flat that didn't have floor boards so he started putting them down the drain IIRC.
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- I heard he moved to the top floor himself in attempt to stop himself from killing again. Besides the killings, he sounded like a nice guy, old Dennis - like a sort of murderous Roy Cropper.
 
Same can be said for Jeffrey Dahmer. He pleaded guilty because he said he'd put his victims families through more than enough torment as it was without making them sit through a Not Guilty plea. Which displays a strange type of conscience and morality.

And, of course, John Wayne Gacy and his charitable events. Although I'm almost certain that was more to do with social standing than actual altruism on his part.
 
I don't know, you know - people are complex, aware of their failings. That kind of duality wouldn't surprise me. We must remember Nilsen's vehement attitude toward his union work; he was apparently quite impassioned about it. Apparently he was all for the underdog; surely an extension of the way he felt about himself (maybe Gacy felt the same?).
 
I think it's just a further example of, "Serial Killers are People Too". There's nice people and nasty people, and some of them are serial killers; if you know what I mean. I'd say Gacy wasn't a nice person at all; certainly people who knew him didn't like him much. Whereas Nilsen and Dahmer were more, well, bland really. People didn't care enough about them to like them or not.

Which isn't to say that's why they became serial killers.
 
I told one recently that it's the word 'evil' that clouds the issue; it makes the killers mythological things, monsters, and clouds our judgement terribly. Take the word away and what do we have? Illness, sickness? Human failings, problems. It puts them nearer to us, scary as they are - which is something that must surely happen.
BTW I can understand these people whose children or siblings kill and don't distance themselves from them; I was thinking recently that if my kid grew up to be a killer I'd not desert him. anyone have views on this? I suppose it depends on the crimes...
 
tonylovell said:
I told one recently that it's the word 'evil' that clouds the issue; it makes the killers mythological things, monsters, and clouds our judgement terribly. Take the word away and what do we have? Illness, sickness? Human failings, problems. It puts them nearer to us, scary as they are - which is something that must surely happen.
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I've often thought this. It's a pointless judgement to make, it's not helpful in any way. It just allows us to think that we could never do anything nasty like the evil people.

BTW I can understand these people whose children or siblings kill and don't distance themselves from them; I was thinking recently that if my kid grew up to be a killer I'd not desert him. anyone have views on this? I suppose it depends on the crimes...
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I think it would depend on the parent. I don't think I'd desert them, I'd try to make them realise (if they didn't already) that what they did was wrong. I would be pretty pissed off if they told me they didn't commit the crime and it turned out that they definitely did, though.
 
I think (hope?) that if I had a relative or loved one who turned out to be a murderer or other criminal that I would continue to love and support them, all the way through their arrest, conviction, and punishment.

I wouldn't try to keep them out of gaol, or to evade justice, unless I thought they were innocent, or possibly if I felt the law was unjust. (Not that the latter applies to murder or other violent crime.)
 
Anyone see The Birdman of Alcatraz? He was a killer, and yet the most horrifying thing in it was the bit where his mum stopped fighting for his case when he managed to get himself a wife; in fact she recommended the courts keep him locked up!
In fact, to go back on topic, I believe our demonisation of criminals perpetuates the situation. If the notion of evil were dismissed people would only to be able to identify with illness, and that's a less glamorous/charged/potent role to adopt.
 
Apparently, Flat 23D Cranley Gardens, Muswell Hill, is up for sale. Would suit first time buyer. Lack of imagination preferred.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...tchered-victims-goes-up-for-sale-8763510.html

Would you live in a house of horrors? Muswell Hill flat where serial killing necrophiliac Dennis Nilsen butchered victims goes up for sale

History of Flat 23D in leafy Cranley Gardens, Muswell Hill is nothing if not shocking


The Independent. John Hall. 15 August 2013


‘Buyers are asked to research the history of this property’.

It’s a fairly innocuous note at the end of a property listing that quietly alludes to the shocking history of the bargain price flat up for sale.

And the history of Flat 23D in leafy Cranley Gardens, Muswell Hill is nothing if not shocking.

For this is not just the attic apartment where notorious serial killing necrophile Dennis Nilsen butchered his victims, it is also the property where the stench of drains clogged with rotting body parts eventually led to his capture.

It would appear a number of prospective buyers may already have “researched the history of the property” however, as over the last fortnight the already bargain asking price of £265,000 has been slashed by a further £25,000 to £240,000.

Similar properties in the area are listed for sale at over £385,000.

Described as a “charming” property that is “centrally located and within walking distance to Muswell Hill Broadway and its bars and cafes”, the flat is a top floor, one bedroom property with a private balcony, living room, kitchen, shower room and separate toilet.

It also comes with some pretty gruesome historical baggage.

In October 1981, Dennis Nilsen moved to the Cranley Gardens property having already murdered at least 12 young men – many of them homeless homosexuals he met in bars or on the streets and lured to his home with the promise of food, alcohol and shelter.

In previous properties Nilsen had had access to outside space, so after killing his victims and often engaging in sexual acts with their corpses, he would dismember them and either burn the remains on a bonfire, or leave entrails in the garden for foxes to eat.

Upon moving into the Cranley Gardens property, Nilsen showed no sign of bringing a halt to his killing. It is believed he murdered at least four more men in the attic flat that is now up for sale.

As the current property listing states, the flat has no access to a garden - unlike Nielsen’s previous homes – which led to him storing his victims’ mutilated remains in bin bags stuffed into wardrobes and cupboards around the flat.

Once the stench of the rotting corpses began to attract the attention of neighbours, Nilsen attempted to dispose of them by flushing the body parts down the toilet.

The remains eventually led to a blocked sewage system and when drain clearage company Dyno-Rod visited the property, they discovered a flesh-like substance being eaten by rats. Although they reported the blockage as suspicious, the drain inspectors removed the substance, assuming it to be a odd but not necessarily sinister build-up of chicken flesh and bones.

The drain inspector’s supervisor thought it best to report the substance to police, however, and on closer inspection pathologist Professor David Bowen, found it be a build-up of human remains.

Nilsen was arrested as he returned home from work, after officers entered the property and smelt rotting flesh coming from his flat. He calmly told police where in the property they would find remains, adding that he had killed “15 or 16 since 1978”.

On a search of the apartment, the remains of three men were found in a wardrobe, tea chest and bathroom drawer. His previous address was subsequently searched, and more body parts were found there too.

Nilsen pleaded guilty by way of diminished responsibility in order to be convicted of manslaughter, but on November 4 1983 he was convicted of six counts of murder and two attempted murders.

He was initially given a minimum 25-year prison sentence, but this was later changed to a whole-life sentence. Last month the European Court of Human Rights ruled the whole-life tariff illegal, however, meaning the 67-year-old must now be given a minimum term by the High Court.
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A bargain for some lucky buyer.
 
I've never read this thread before.
Interesting stuff, all of it.

However it would seem that I am the only person who doesn't have some kind of FOAF link to the man himself.
 
I'd never seen this thread before either - great stuff. The Santa Claus joke nearly made me wet myself.
 
Going back to the original UL, I may be able to shed more light on this. DN worked at the Jobcentre in Kentish Town and when I was a civil servant at a northern Jobcentre, it was widely rumoured that DN would cook a staff curry at Christmas time each year.

After leaving the civil service, I joined the Metropolitan Police and worked in the area which covered Muswell Hill and in fact, regularly worked at Hornsey Police station where DN was taken and interviewed. The rumour was also prevalent in these circles that he used to do a staff curry at the Jobcentre.

On visiting the crime museum at NSY, I can confirm that there is a large pot on display and yes, you have guessed it - DN is said by the curator to have used this pot to boil the flesh off the bones of victims!

Based on that assumption that nobody who lives alone needs more than one very large pot for cooking and also, the frankness displayed by DN in his interviews and subsequent trial as well as the heresay evidence from a number of sources - I conclude that on the balance of probabilities, the story that DN used the same pot to bail flesh off human remains AND to bring food to his co-workers is most certainly TRUE!
 
I read once that Nilllsen, Frank Kitson and Idi Amin were in the same Army unit in Kenya. Wonder if this is an Urban Legend?
 
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