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Disease Mongering

MrRING

MrRING

Android Futureman
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Messages
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Is this really a thing beyond this article I was sent by a concerned relative?

Malady mongers: How drug companies sell treatments by inventing diseases
Adriane Fugh-Berman, a professor of pharmacology at Georgetown University Medical Center, said the pharmaceutical industry medicalizes normal life by positing that a vague, highly relatable, everyday condition is symptomatic of a newly invented disease. In other cases, pharma exaggerates the prevalence or severity of an existing condition to entice more customers.

“Marketing for a drug can start seven to 10 years before they go on the market. Because it’s illegal to promote a drug before it goes on the market, what they’re promoting is the disease. That’s not illegal to do because there’s no regulation on creating diseases,” Fugh-Berman told Yahoo News.

Lisa Schwartz and Steven Woloshin, co-directors of the Center for Medicine and Media at Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice, said disease-awareness campaigns may seem caring or educational but are often just marketing in disguise. The campaigns often follow three basic steps: lower the bar for diagnosis, raise the stakes so people want to get tested and spin the evidence about a drug’s benefits and risks. These steps were seen in campaigns on testosterone deficiency, bipolar disorder and restless leg syndrome.
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This article bothers me. In saying that some illnesses are 'made up' by the pharmaceutical companies they are giving the green light for:
- some doctors to have more reason to be dismissive of their patients symptoms.
- some members of the public to have more reason to think that people with certain illnesses are just 'making it up'.

And we really don't need any more of either of the above.
 
ramonmercado said:
Some people genuinely suffer from mental health issues. I have found psychiatrists to be helpful and antidepressants to be beneficial.
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I entirely agree some people have mental health issues. Some of them caused by psychiatrists.

And I don't think we have any more idea how to treat the more serious mental health issues than the idiots who thought cutting out parts of peoples brains or squirting vast amounts of electricity into a delicate instrument had 50 years ago. In most cases the treatment consists of stunning people with drugs powerful enough that they turn into virtual zombies and additionally experience serious side effects.

Some sufferers of course will believe themselves cured, but to some extent we can all cure ourselves if we believe that what is being done to us will fix us. See the placebo effect.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/freud-was-a-fraud-a-triumph-of-pseudoscience/
 
Cochise said:
I entirely agree some people have mental health issues. Some of them caused by psychiatrists.

And I don't think we have any more idea how to treat the more serious mental health issues than the idiots who thought cutting out parts of peoples brains or squirting vast amounts of electricity into a delicate instrument had 50 years ago. In most cases the treatment consists of stunning people with drugs powerful enough that they turn into virtual zombies and additionally experience serious side effects.

Some sufferers of course will believe themselves cured, but to some extent we can all cure ourselves if we believe that what is being done to us will fix us. See the placebo effect.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/freud-was-a-fraud-a-triumph-of-pseudoscience/
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That may be your personal experience of psychiatric care but it is not mine. I don't believe myself cured, my ailment is under control due to the help of psychiatrists and medication. Not a placebo effect as far as I am concerned.

Tens of millions of people benefit from modern psychiatric care. Imho it is not correct to consider them to be deluded.
 
ramonmercado said:
That may be your personal experience of psychiatric care but it is not mine. I don't believe myself cured, my ailment is under control due to the help of psychiatrists and medication. Not a placebo effect as far as I am concerned.

Tens of millions of people benefit from modern psychiatric care. Imho it is not correct to consider them to be deluded.
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It's not a random opinion of mine. You'll find a quite large number of medical and scientific people believe psychiatry is at best a pseudo-science. At worst positively dangerous, e.g. the recovered memory scam.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/theory-knowledge/201212/is-psychiatry-the-science-lies

Just one of many references from reputable publications.
 
Cochise said:
It's not a random opinion of mine. You'll find a quite large number of medical and scientific people believe psychiatry is at best a pseudo-science. At worst positively dangerous, e.g. the recovered memory scam.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/theory-knowledge/201212/is-psychiatry-the-science-lies

Just one of many references from reputable publications.
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The recovered memory scam is hardly grounds for attacking psychiatry as a whole.

Your attitude towards psychiatry is really no better than that of the anti-vaxxers. Many people need psychiatric help to survive and carry on a normal life.

Have you personally suffered badly at the hand of psychiatrists and associated medicines?
 
ramonmercado said:
Some people genuinely suffer from mental health issues. I have found psychiatrists to be helpful and antidepressants to be beneficial.
Click to expand...

Studies show that psychologists and talking therapies have a higher success rate in treating mental illness than either psychiatrists or the placebo effect. Psychiatry has a comparatively small "toolkit" of drugs for treating mental disorders, and once a patient stops taking the drugs, often the mental condition re-emerges. For the best results, a patient needs to have appropriate drugs to alleviate their condition so that they will be receptive to talking therapies. Often mental patients are filmed while having episodes, purely for the time when their condition has improved, so that they will be properly encouraged to take their medication seriously.

This area of medicine is one of the very youngest, and has made remarkable progress in the short period that it has existed, unfortunately often at appalling cost in human life and dignity. Mental illness is tragic and society as a whole is pretty terrified of it, as if mere contact with the mentally ill will somehow cause infection. This leads to a lot of social stigma, which is never more toxic than what comes out of the poor patients themselves. This has often led to neglect in funding for care facilities which in turn has led to some heinous conditions for mentally ill patients in care over the years. Given that 1 in 5 people will experience a mental illness at some time in their lives, it would be far better if people could look at the problem and realize "That could be any one of us after a bad week", and we all work as a community to display a lot more compassion on the issue.
 
AlchoPwn said:
Studies show that psychologists and talking therapies have a higher success rate in treating mental illness than either psychiatrists or the placebo effect. Psychiatry has a comparatively small "toolkit" of drugs for treating mental disorders, and once a patient stops taking the drugs, often the mental condition re-emerges. For the best results, a patient needs to have appropriate drugs to alleviate their condition so that they will be receptive to talking therapies. Often mental patients are filmed while having episodes, purely for the time when their condition has improved, so that they will be properly encouraged to take their medication seriously.

This area of medicine is one of the very youngest, and has made remarkable progress in the short period that it has existed, unfortunately often at appalling cost in human life and dignity. Mental illness is tragic and society as a whole is pretty terrified of it, as if mere contact with the mentally ill will somehow cause infection. This leads to a lot of social stigma, which is never more toxic than what comes out of the poor patients themselves. This has often led to neglect in funding for care facilities which in turn has led to some heinous conditions for mentally ill patients in care over the years. Given that 1 in 5 people will experience a mental illness at some time in their lives, it would be far better if people could look at the problem and realize "That could be any one of us after a bad week", and we all work as a community to display a lot more compassion on the issue.
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Evidence please.

When are "mental patients" filmed during a relapse? Which institutes do this?

Which western society thinks schizophrenia is "catching"?

Totally agree about funding and stigma.
 
AlchoPwn said:
Studies show that psychologists and talking therapies have a higher success rate in treating mental illness than either psychiatrists or the placebo effect. Psychiatry has a comparatively small "toolkit" of drugs for treating mental disorders, and once a patient stops taking the drugs, often the mental condition re-emerges. For the best results, a patient needs to have appropriate drugs to alleviate their condition so that they will be receptive to talking therapies. Often mental patients are filmed while having episodes, purely for the time when their condition has improved, so that they will be properly encouraged to take their medication seriously.

This area of medicine is one of the very youngest, and has made remarkable progress in the short period that it has existed, unfortunately often at appalling cost in human life and dignity. Mental illness is tragic and society as a whole is pretty terrified of it, as if mere contact with the mentally ill will somehow cause infection. This leads to a lot of social stigma, which is never more toxic than what comes out of the poor patients themselves. This has often led to neglect in funding for care facilities which in turn has led to some heinous conditions for mentally ill patients in care over the years. Given that 1 in 5 people will experience a mental illness at some time in their lives, it would be far better if people could look at the problem and realize "That could be any one of us after a bad week", and we all work as a community to display a lot more compassion on the issue.
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A holistic approach works best but unfortunately not everyone can afford a long programme of talk therapy and it is rationed on Public Health Systems. More money has to be put into the Mental Health Services, that means more taxes. I got into a good programme and the services in my area are better than most other parts of Dublin. My clinic is associated with St Vincent's Hospital, Fairview, I spent ten weeks there as an inpatient and another six as a day patient in 2005. It's quite a progressive Hospital.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
Psychologists are the new snake oil salesmen. Psychiatrists not so much.
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Most clinical psychologists are doing the best they can for their clients but there are snake oil salespeople among them. It is mostly psychologists who take part in the recovered memories scam.
 
ramonmercado said:
The recovered memory scam is hardly grounds for attacking psychiatry as a whole.

Your attitude towards psychiatry is really no better than that of the anti-vaxxers. Many people need psychiatric help to survive and carry on a normal life.

Have you personally suffered badly at the hand of psychiatrists and associated medicines?
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No because I avoid them like the plague, having talked to a couple. Perhaps the worst being a guy with a masters degree in psychology.

I'm not suggesting they should be banned, if you feel they've done you good then fine. Some people feel that acupuncture or homeopathy have done them a power of good as well.
 
Cochise said:
No because I avoid them like the plague, having talked to a couple. Perhaps the worst being a guy with a masters degree in psychology.

I'm not suggesting they should be banned, if you feel they've done you good then fine. Some people feel that acupuncture or homeopathy have done them a power of good as well.
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A guy with a masters in psychology is not a psychiatrist, he is a psychologist. You are obviously completely ignorant about this subject. In your previous post you were citing an article on a psychology site to back up your attack on psychiatrists.

You really are like an anti-vaxxer if you compare psychiatry to acupuncture and homeopathy. Like the anti-vaxxers though your's is not a harmless eccentricity if it deters the mentally ill from seeking help. People end up committing suicide or living lives of misery without treatment. In some cases they end up killing others.
 
I do realise a psychologist is not a psychiatrist, although they are equally barmy. I don't believe they do help the seriously mentally ill. So it would be wrong of me to pretend otherwise. But its a free country, you can go to them if you want.

Yes, I did quote an article in a psychology magazine. Why do you think that is inappropriate? The subject of the article was psychiatry.
 
Cochise said:
I do realise a psychologist is not a psychiatrist, although they are equally barmy. I don't believe they do help the seriously mentally ill. So it would be wrong of me to pretend otherwise. But its a free country, you can go to them if you want.

Yes, I did quote an article in a psychology magazine. Why do you think that is inappropriate? The subject of the article was psychiatry.
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You have no idea of what you are talking about. The nonsense you are peddling is just as dangerous as that of the anti-vaxxers.

If psychologists are just as barmy as psychiatrists then why would you trust an article in a magazine for psychologists?

I'll waste no more time on this.
 
Good. People are entitled to have opinions that differ from yours, you know. Unlike the anti-vaxers I would not stop anyone going to a psychiatrist or a psychologist if they felt it would help.

I'm not going to post a whole series of links to people who think either or both are mumbo-jumbo, its not the way i argue. If you are actually interested you can type into a search engine just as easily as me. But it seems to me you are convinced your psychiatrist helped and I don't want to undermine that because it might undo the good you thought he did you.
 
ramonmercado said:
Most clinical psychologists are doing the best they can for their clients but there are snake oil salespeople among them. It is mostly psychologists who take part in the recovered memories scam.
Click to expand...

Yes, the current cells are in the US Midwest last time I checked. Sadly a good number of them are now out of jail and preying on people in jurisdictions where the idiot ratio is sufficiently high to preclude anyone investigating fake satanic molester allegations.
 
ramonmercado said:
Most clinical psychologists are doing the best they can for their clients but there are snake oil salespeople among them. It is mostly psychologists who take part in the recovered memories scam.
Click to expand...

Sadly a fair few "clinical psychologists" are self aggrandising as is their profession. "Patient A did not want to talk today so I will catch up with him next week" spends an hour writing this sentence up - this goes on and on. The Psychologist says "I'm trying to work with this patient but he is unwilling to engage." If you look at their caseload they will have several patients like this a day and are often lucky in clinical settings to see a maximum of one or two patients a day.

"It's not my fault they won'y engage but I'm still offering them psychology even though I never do any work with them".


I spoke to a forensic psychologist who worked at a prison he said "psychology is about the advancement, (increase in power and influence), of the profession - it has no interest helping people."

The huge amount of health money spent on psychology when they rarely see anyone is staggering. They mostly spend their time in "supervision" meetings with each other often at the local cafe.

They are untouchable in health which is alarming. Completely untouchable and that's why their profession is so successful.

Psychiatry - It's different. They prescribe, the drugs are okish but they do their best.
 
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Lets not throw the baby out with the psychological (or psychiatric) bathwater. The article is American based and talking about the situation there. We should pay attention because it trickles through to the UK. I am quite interested in the US pharmaceutical racket and follow it via podcasts and so on. These statistics are astonishing:-

The United States was still the largest single pharmaceutical market in 2017, generating more than $450 billion of revenue. In contrast, all of Europe accounted for roughly $214 billion. U.S. pharmaceutical spending alone is double the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average. According to the Mayo Clinic, nearly 70 percent of Americans take at least one prescription drug.
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Does it seem feasible that 70% of Americans are actually so ill that they need drugs to keep them alive or functioning? Or does it seem more likely that the below is kicking in at least partially:-

“Everyone’s legs feel restless now and then, or they feel occasional stinging or burning sensations in their eyes. But far less people have symptoms severe enough to need medical treatment. The problem is that manufacturers increasingly target people with mild symptoms in order to turn them into patients. Unfortunately, treatment may offer little benefit and may not outweigh side effects, cost and inconvenience,” Woloshin said.
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And this is just awful:-

Woloshin said pharmaceutical company print or online advertisements sometimes feature quizzes that include symptoms associated with a condition, but which the drug did not help in clinical trials.

“Consumers naturally think, ‘I see the list of things on this quiz. The drug must treat these things,’ even though it doesn’t. It’s a trick,” Woloshin said.
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If you ever listen to any US radio shows or podcasts that are not dedicated to railing against the pharmaceutical cartels, they are littered with adverts for "ask your doctor for new FAKOCILLIN today" and other such. The stuff outlined in the article is real. This is the culture in which antivaxers are incubated.
 
It's really big commercially in America. Let the buyer beware.
 
ramonmercado said:
I would be cautious about describing Bipolar Disorder as an invented disease.
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I don't think they are saying it is invented, more that feeling happy one day and less so the next is heavily marketed as symptoms of bi-polar when in fact it is just the normal human condition.
 
Min Bannister said:
I don't think they are saying it is invented, more that feeling happy one day and less so the next is heavily marketed as symptoms of bi-polar when in fact it is just the normal human condition.
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That is certainly different, in Ireland psychiatrists are even reluctant to diagnose Bipolar in patients with Depression who also suffer from mood swings.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
Psychiatry - It's different. They prescribe, the drugs are okish but they do their best.
Click to expand...

I imagine they believe in what they are doing. But I believe they really act as non-religious confessors and many non-psychiatric counsellors do at least as good a job without any Freudian mumbo-jumbo.

As one of the articles said, if you think aliens watch your every move you are the victim of paranoid delusion, if you believe a big man with a beard does exactly the same you are sane.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
Sadly a fair few "clinical psychologists" are self aggrandising as is their profession. "Patient A did not want to talk today so I will catch up with him next week" spends an hour writing this sentence up - this goes on and on. The Psychologist says "I'm trying to work with this patient but he is unwilling to engage." If you look at their caseload they will have several patients like this a day and are often lucky in clinical settings to see a maximum of one or two patients a day.

"It's not my fault they won'y engage but I'm still offering them psychology even though I never do any work with them".


I spoke to a forensic psychologist who worked at a prison he said "psychology is about the advancement, (increase in power and influence), of the profession - it has no interest helping people."

The huge amount of health money spent on psychology when they rarely see anyone is staggering. They mostly spend their time in "supervision" meetings with each other often at the local cafe.

They are untouchable in health which is alarming. Completely untouchable and that's why their profession is so successful.

Psychiatry - It's different. They prescribe, the drugs are okish but they do their best.
Click to expand...

The problem may be in how the psychological are organised. In RoI most would be attached to hospitals so the potential for ever increasing layers of management with the knock on ever multiplying series' of management meetings doesn't happen.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
"It's not my fault they won't engage but I'm still offering them psychology even though I never do any work with them". I spoke to a forensic psychologist who worked at a prison he said "psychology is about the advancement, (increase in power and influence), of the profession - it has no interest helping people."

Psychiatry - It's different. They prescribe, the drugs are okish but they do their best.
Click to expand...

I always find it interesting how different people's experiences of the two professions are. The opinion regarding psychology vs psychiatry that I offered earlier is based on the evidence based medicine studies and the statistics they received. I have heard people wax lyrical about how understanding and saintly their psychologists are and simultaneously how they felt that their psychiatrist was a thinly disguised robot with a prescription pad, but then, I have also heard about sexual predator shrinks and brilliant psychiatrists who go the extra mile to get patients more effective meds than the standard prescription. Of course, we are dealing with human beings, and you can never quite tell what sort of care you are going to get. My advice to anyone is, if you don't completely trust and vibe with your medical health professional, find another one.
 
A friend of mine (who has all kinds of mental issues) really doesn't like psychiatrists. She says they're mostly harsh, un-empathetic, and quite arrogant in their approach. On the other hand, she has had good experiences with psychologists.
Everybody's mileage may differ, it seems.
 
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