• Forums Software Updates

    The forums will be undergoing updates on Sunday 13th October 2024.
    Little to no downtime is expected.
  • We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

DNA Confirms There IS A Big Cat Roaming The British Countryside

PeteS said:
I've seen cats adopt that pose though, ours certainly do. Could simply be a close up or enlarged shot of a domestic cat. Pretty rare to see a domestic cat though which is totally black without any markings, although we had one that looked identical to this picture. Can't rule out it being a big one though.
Click to expand...
That one genuinely is a big cat,I know that for a 100% fact but how come the “experts” or the thousands of sightings over the years never produce such a pic?
 
Druk said:
That one genuinely is a big cat,I know that for a 100% fact but how come the “experts” or the thousands of sightings over the years never produce such a pic?
Click to expand...
Amazing how the behaviour and looks of domestic cats mirrors their larger feline couterparts. The Russian Youtubers who have a puma and leopard sharing their home often show how behaviours mirror the cats in our house.
 
Druk said:
That one genuinely is a big cat,I know that for a 100% fact but how come the “experts” or the thousands of sightings over the years never produce such a pic?
Click to expand...
Infrequency of event, lack of camera accessibility at the time, poor reaction time in witness....

There are many many things of which there are few photographs, yet they indisputably happen. I ride horses, have done for over forty years. Yet if you asked me to produce a photograph of me doing so - not a single one exists.Well, no, I think there is one, very blurry one of me aged about eight, but you can't tell it's me.
 
I have always thought an article back in the good ol' Fortean Studies was very illuminating. IIRC it was called Bodies of Evidence but I don't remember which volume it was in, but listed the surprising amount of non-native cats that have turned up as roadkill. That list can only have gotten longer.
 
Last edited:
catseye said:
Infrequency of event, lack of camera accessibility at the time, poor reaction time in witness...
Click to expand...
But apparently there’s lots of them here :dunno: there’s not one single lots of them here UK animal that hasn’t got crystal clear yup that’s one pics except………:headspinner:
 
SimonBurchell said:
I have always thought an article back in the good ol' Fortean Studies was very illuminating. IIRC it was called Bodies of Evidence but I don't remember which volume it was in, but listed the surprising amount of non-native cats that have turned up as roadkill. That list can only have gotten longer.
Click to expand...
Be interesting to see any genuine roadkill big cats in the uk,any leopard or mountain lion would do?
 
Paul_Exeter said:
Felt this deserves to be posted on here, too:

DNA confirms there IS a big cat roaming the British countryside​


The DNA of a big cat in the Panthera genus – probably a leopard – has been identified from a swab taken from a dead sheep in the Lake District.

This is the first time that big cat DNA has been found on a carcass in the UK. The analysis was carried out at a laboratory at the University of Warwick run by Prof Robin Allaby.

Allaby told BBC Wildlife that it was very hard to lift DNA from swabs taken from carcasses but there was no doubt in this case. “It makes me a convert [to the existence of non-native big cats in the UK],” Allaby said. “Until now, I have remained open-minded, I think that’s my job as a scientist.”

Allaby has previously identified a bit of a claw that was sent to him from someone who wished to remain anonymous from the north of England as also belong to a cat in the Panthera genus.

Allaby started up the testing service 12 years ago when a roe deer carcass that had been scavenged was discovered in a small valley near Stroud in Gloucestershire. “All we found on that one was fox [DNA], which are a really underestimated predator,” Allaby said.

In the most recent case, the sheep carcass was discovered by Cumbrian resident Sharon Larkin-Snowden in an undisclosed upland location. Larkin-Snowden told Rick Minter’s Big Cat Conversations podcast that she chanced across the dead sheep one morning in October last year.

Larkin-Snowden said the carcass was fresh and that she had disturbed whatever had been feeding on, which she then saw running towards a stone wall before disappearing over it.

https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/mammals/big-cat-british-countryside

Also on the Countryfile website:

An undisclosed Cumbrian hill farm is the location for the first ever positive identification of big cat DNA taken from a carcass.
https://www.countryfile.com/news/ne...s-presence-of-big-cat-in-cumbrian-countryside
Click to expand...

lt does occur to me on re-reading the OP that the sample seems to have been collected by the witness Larkin-Snowden, then submitted to Warwick University’s Prof. Allaby for analysis. I’d want to have a lot more detail concerning the chain of custody before l’d consider this case to be cast iron evidence of ABCs in the UK.

It wouldn’t be an impossible task for someone with an axe to grind to obtain big cat DNA, apply it to a roe carcass and send the resulting sample to the laboratory for analysis.

Let’s find out a bit more about Larkin-Snowden and the details of this incident before we stamp it “Proven.”

maximus otter
 
SimonBurchell said:
As I recall most were smaller varieties such as lynx and African wildcats, I'll have to dig out the article.
Click to expand...
Yup,I know,maybe one lynx,the African wildcats are the size of Scottish wildcats,and not many either,remember roadkill big cats are collected by clandestine agencies and MIB so as not to scare the public.
 
maximus otter said:
It wouldn’t be an impossible task for someone with an axe to grind to obtain big cat DNA
Click to expand...
I can get a dead lynx,I looked into the CITES import permit last year in Canada,it takes a month to process,anyone can create a decent hoax in this day and age.
 
catseye said:
Infrequency of event, lack of camera accessibility at the time, poor reaction time in witness....

There are many many things of which there are few photographs, yet they indisputably happen. I ride horses, have done for over forty years. Yet if you asked me to produce a photograph of me doing so - not a single one exists.Well, no, I think there is one, very blurry one of me aged about eight, but you can't tell it's me.
Click to expand...
Well then, I'm sorry, but unless you can produce clear photographic evidence, I don't believe horses exist.

But, yes, there are good reasons why clear photographs of a rare phenomenon might not be easy to find. However, that fact doesn't lend weight to the possibility that the phenomenon is real. It's like Russell's teapot. 'You wouldn't expect to see it,' doesn't lead to, 'therefore it's real.'

But, like I said, there's nothing inherently unlikely about big cats roaming the British countryside. In fact, it would seem weird if there hadn't been at least a couple over recent years. We know there have been such animals in captivity, other captive animals are known to have escaped, exotic felids have been found dead particularly, it seems, as roadkill. Then there was Felicity in Inverness in 1980. I'm highly sceptical of a large, perhaps breeding, population of big cats in the UK. I think the evidence would be more explicit, even indisputable. But, a handful of big cats, possibly. I just want clear evidence before saying definitely.
 
Druk said:
I can get a dead lynx,I looked into the CITES import permit last year in Canada,it takes a month to process,anyone can create a decent hoax in this day and age.
Click to expand...
Get me one while you're at it, I'm all out. I'll transfer the money.
 
maximus otter said:
lt does occur to me on re-reading the OP that the sample seems to have been collected by the witness Larkin-Snowden, then submitted to Warwick University’s Prof. Allaby for analysis. I’d want to have a lot more detail concerning the chain of custody before l’d consider this case to be cast iron evidence of ABCs in the UK.

It wouldn’t be an impossible task for someone with an axe to grind to obtain big cat DNA, apply it to a roe carcass and send the resulting sample to the laboratory for analysis.

Let’s find out a bit more about Larkin-Snowden and the details of this incident before we stamp it “Proven.”

maximus otter
Click to expand...
Entirely feasible.

But would also have to be well planned and carried out in a tight timeframe if the following is anything to go by:

". (Warshauer, et al., 2012) While smooth, non-porous surfaces have been found to be the best receiving surfaces for "wet" DNA transfer, a recent study suggests that human skin exposed to saliva can retain testable samples for up to 96 hours."

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ext=judges to follow.-,...,for up to 96 hours.

If it is a clever hoax then at least we have a verified hoaxer and not some anonymous TikTok-er and so at least any future evidence from that source could be ruled out.
 
Paul_Exeter said:
Entirely feasible.

But would also have to be well planned and carried out in a tight timeframe if the following is anything to go by:

". (Warshauer, et al., 2012) While smooth, non-porous surfaces have been found to be the best receiving surfaces for "wet" DNA transfer, a recent study suggests that human skin exposed to saliva can retain testable samples for up to 96 hours."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/45648623_The_Recovery_and_Persistence_of_Salivary_DNA_on_Human_Skin#:~:text=judges to follow.-,...,for up to 96 hours.

If it is a clever hoax then at least we have a verified hoaxer and not some anonymous TikTok-er and so at least any future evidence from that source could be ruled out.
Click to expand...

“Degradation is the limiting factor for using salivary DNA to identify predators responsible for livestock depredations. Currently, little information is available on how rapidly the process of degradation occurs following depredation events.

Salivary DNA from ungulate browsing on twigs was viable for 50% of samples 12 weeks after deposition (Nichols et al. 2012). In contrast,

DNA from wolves and lynx (Lynx lynx) was shown to be viable for < 50% of samples only 48 h after deposition (Harms et al. 2015). Clearly, persistence of salivary DNA in the environment is highly variable.”

https://academic.oup.com/jmammal/article/101/1/298/5614285?login=false

maximus otter
 
Paul_Exeter said:
With the hoax hypothesis the person who took the sample would need to be working with big cats inn captivity. I feel we need to no more about how and exactly when the DNA sample was sent to the University.
Click to expand...

A search under Larkin-Snowden‘s name reveals numerous newspaper articles quoting her, for at least 4 years.

She runs the Big Cats in Cumbria Facebook page, and has apparently become the go-to source for quotes on the issue.

maximus otter
 
Last edited:
maximus otter said:
A search under Larkin-Snowden‘s name reveals numerous newspaper articles quoting her, for at least 4 years.

She runs the Big Cats in Cumbria Facebook page, and has apparently become the go-to source for quotes on the issue.

maximus otter
Click to expand...
It is problematic but would anyone let her get close enough to caged big cats to take a saliver sample? if not, she would have to have an accomplice within a zoo.

There is an issue also for us Forteans: I've posted over 4,000 times on here and if I genuinely see the ghost of the old lady who used to live here in my kitchen tonight, will my experience be dismissed because I am involved with the Forteana Forums?

"Oh that Paul_Exeter, he is all over those forums chatting about spooky stuff, of course he thinks he saw a ghost but it was probably just tiredness"

I feel whether or not she has an interest in big cats or not is only an issue if proven doubts arise over the veracity of her statement and the DNA. It seems we have the Calvine UFO photo of big cat research here in that we finally have what people wanted (clear UFO pic/big cat DNA) but there are unresolved question marks over the witness.
 
I will take this with a pinch of salt, besides the fact people have seen UFO's eject material and when tested it turns out to be common steel slag but they saw it, it a great little trick the phenomena plays, misdirection but in this case consider the source of the source of the information
 
Paul_Exeter said:
There is an issue also for us Forteans: I've posted over 4,000 times on here and if I genuinely see the ghost of the old lady who used to live here in my kitchen tonight, will my experience be dismissed because I am involved with the Forteana Forums?
Click to expand...
Just post your experience. In the end, does it matter if anyone believes you or not? I've posted various odd experiences on the board over the years, they've generally been well received but I think the most relevant one for this discussion was a recent weird stay at an inn in north Devon. Brief recap - jolted out of sleep by the noise of something dragging across the floor of my room, sounding very loud and very close - best guess, the shower door being slowly and deliberately slid closed. Later woken up by voices of people coming back from a night out and going in the adjoining room - but the room was unoccupied and undisturbed when I got up the next morning. Discussion following this arrived at the conclusion that it was probably staff getting up to hanky panky - I actually don't agree because it doesn't really fit in with what I heard. But in the end, what does it matter? Post your experience, at the very best there will be intelligent discussion, whether you agree with the general conclusion or not. It's also a decent way to log your anecdotes, so they don't just disappear into obscurity.
 
SimonBurchell said:
I have always thought an article back in the good ol' Fortean Studies was very illuminating. IIRC it was called Bodies of Evidence but I don't remember which volume it was in, but listed the surprising amount of non-native cats that have turned up as roadkill. That list can only have gotten longer.
Click to expand...
It was Volume 2, an article by Karl Shuker, a quick glance had at least one Leopard Cat to add to the tally.
 
PeteS said:
I've seen cats adopt that pose though, ours certainly do. Could simply be a close up or enlarged shot of a domestic cat. Pretty rare to see a domestic cat though which is totally black without any markings, although we had one that looked identical to this picture. Can't rule out it being a big one though.
Click to expand...
We had a totally black cat that the Girls called 'Ooty'.

Old Ooty was a bit of a Trickster - we had no porch light and every now and again, we'd hear this 'Bang!' on the front door. Until we got wise, we'd go to our front door, open it, and no one's there. We'd shut the door, settle in and 'Bang!' again. Same old procedure - open the front door and no one's there.

The last time we heard the 'Bang!' we went to the door and opened it - nowt. Then, like the Cheshire cat, this pink mouth appeared out of the dark...it was bloody Ooty all along!

He continued to do this, which became a bit of a joke for him. He'd jump against the door, move back from the door, and close his mouth and eyes when we came to the door - he was one of those cats who didn't reflect light so we saw nothing until he opened his mouth.

Old Ooty thought it was a great joke...Ooty had longer legs though, than this image. (maybe this Puss is walking in a hollow -)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top