Do Sigils Really Work? Desperate Journalist Wants to Know

[Onix_Martinez]

As for late my situation at work is that my boss is a total prick, he's based in New York (me and my office mates are in Mexico City) and so he has all the excuses needed to blame us on all the mistakes the New York personal makes, since they are affiliated to a sindicate they can do anything and he simply has no balls to stop it. And his boss, based here, seems to be unable to do anything about it. I am just getting tired of this guy and his machinations, so I really, really need to find me another job (not that I really need to, but I just can't take this crap anymore.)

Problem is, finding a good enough job is not that easy. I am journalist and I make around $2.200 a month, and that's quite good down here, but the average person in my position makes around a thousand dollars if they are lucky and I just could not survive on that, with two kids and the payments of my new house.

So bassically, I am itching between the wish to tell this guy to fuck off and find a better job, with nice humans instead of monkeys, and just try to bare this until one of us finally croacks (did I mention I've worked the overnigth shift for the last 3 years?). And I am utterly desperate. And as a desperate person, I am willing to try almost anything.

After reading all this stuff about sigils, I have to wonder if they are for real and if there's some sort of "payback" for what you get. Like, if I find a better job, I am going to have something bad happening to me in another area of my life?

So, guys and gals, any opinons, commentary, support, hugs? Pretty please?

 

[Anonymous]

No sigils don't work - why should they? From a psychological standpoint, this type of belief is known as having an outside locus of control - people who trust in fate etc rather than take responsibility for their own lives. Clearly, you are a hardworker and good at your job. I would suggest that, as your post clearly indicates you want, you start putting your hard efforts into looking for similar paid work elsewhere...It might be a struggle, but ultimately, it could be very rewarding.
But for sake of argument, pretending that they (sigils) could work, then the thrice fold law of return comes into affect. Basically, this states that should you do something nasty to someone with 'magic' there will be 3 times the amount of shite coming back to you. Think of it as fast action karma.

 

[_Lizard23_]

No sigils don't work - why should they? From a psychological standpoint, this type of belief is known as having an outside locus of control - people who trust in fate etc rather than take responsibility for their own lives.

But for sake of argument, pretending that they (sigils) could work, then the thrice fold law of return comes into affect. Basically, this states that should you do something nasty to someone with 'magic' there will be 3 times the amount of shite coming back to you.

I don't understand this. Why would sigil magic only have a negative psychological effect? All supernatural mystical magicalness aside, if you can convince yourself in the threefold law of return and thus perceive / invite 'three times the amount of shite', why can you not convince yourself of the effectiveness of a working along the lines of 'I will get a better job' and thus receive some sort of motivational / confidence benefit?

Taken as a psychological or magic(k)al device (and there's about a million miles of middle ground and yet no distinct line between the two as far as I'm concerned) I would say something like finding a new job (something you expect to have to do rather than expect to just fall in your lap) is an ideal opportunity to experiment with sigil magic(k).

As far as 'payback' is concerned, magic(k)al types, as usual, have all sorts of conflicting opinions. The most common conception is that there is only rebound if you deliberately or accidentally cause harm ... that is, obviously, if you wish your father dead so you get the inheritance, you have deliberately intended harm and might expect the suffer for it, or, if you carelessly wished your sister could lose weight she might lose a limb instead of keeping off the biscuits a bit and then you've accidentally caused harm and might also get a psychic slap for it. Thinking about it, of course, this is ludicrously simplistic and seems to depend on some all-powerful accountant to be constantly weighing up the rights and wrongs of every action and doling out rewards accordingly. And if you believe all that sort of thing why not just have a little old pray?

As a rule of thumb I'd say formulate your statement of desire carefully and don't worry too much about magic(k)al ethics, which is mostly a matter of personal conscience like pretty much everything else.

 

[Anonymous]

I didn't say the psychological effect was negative per se, but the belief pattern was indicative of an outside locus of control. An outside locus of control while possibly giving a subjective good psychological feeling e.g. I was lucky and won the pools etc Thank you lucky mascot, is clearly fine in its place. However, often when things go wrong in life we start to question thus: why am I unlucky. Or things of that nature. Once one starts relying on an outside medium, one starts putting responsibility or blaming those mediums for failure. Therefore, to have an internal locus of control, that is to say, one believes in oneself and his/her abilities, then the person is the master (if you will) of their own destiny...

The above should also help to provide an answer for your second point too.

 

[_Lizard23_]

So is it a belief in or use of magic(k) generally that is 'indicative of an outside locus of control'?
The process of sigil magic(k) would appear to me to be a method of externalising/manifesting your own will in symbolic form in an attempt to encourage the rest of the world to bend itself to that same shape. It relies on no external agency as such but consists of 'I'm thinking about what I want', 'I'm making what I want into a symbolic physical thing', 'I get the real thing I want'.
It is not like e.g. Christianity with its trust in and petitions to god and saints, or demon summoning with its bargains with noncorporeal others, or even lucky mascots, in so much as the only external object involved is created by yourself to represent your goal.
It is more like a company logo or a grafitti tag than anything else, a real world representation of, for want of a better word, a self.
There is no external agent, really.
I suppose feeling the need to do something when undertaking something which is not materially connected with the task at hand could possibly lead to slightly odd compulsive behaviour, but most people have their little rituals in daily life, do they not?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, in regards to rituals in daily life it depends on what you mean. If one talks about habits and routines then yes,if one talks about rituals for an effect that takes placeby putting belief in god(s), sigils and magic, then no, not everybody does.

By writing sigils down and hoping they effect a change, you are behaving in a manner that indicates an outside locus of control. If you are practicing positive thinking then why write down sigils? Sigils themselves are a method of contacting 'power'. Writing in English 'I must set four goals today' is a combination of rehearsal, recall and perhaps elaboration, and is clearly (for the sake of this example) a reminder for self reliance. We can argue about the nature of script, but that would be removed from the point. Sigils.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Anyway...

OM: You will want to read through these:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=451

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4587

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9213

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26197

Plenty of people around here have found them helpful.

Does that mean they work? Thats a bit of a tricky one. Even if they have no intrinsic magic(k)al effect but allow you to visuaisel goals and help provide the incentive to work towards them then they clearly could be said to work.

It really sounds like you want to tell your boss to stick his job where the sun don't shine (which form what you say, sounds perfectly reasonable). The problem is you may have to take a hit on the pay front and you will need the strength of will to push on through to better things and in theory sigils could be helpful.

You will need to plot out what you want to do and then work on making it happen - casting some sigils and walking out of your job is probably going to end in tears (unless you get lucky).

Perhaps, for example, now might be the time to write that novel. filmscript, etc. that you've always had at the back of your mind. If so then a plan might involve getting a few sample chapters out there before quitting your job.

 

[crunchy5]

I hope this link helps.

http://www.boudicca.de/max1-e.htm

 

[Anonymous]

Indeed. by all means write out the sigils, but believe in yourself and your abilities first.

 

[James_H]

Not in my experience, but I haven't really had the need to investigate very much.

 

[Onix_Martinez]

Most interesting replies and advices (and Gadaffi Duck, yours is the coolest knickname I've heard in years). I am not ready to just walk away and go for the sigils, hoping for the best. I am not one who takes a step without wearing my combat boots, sort of speak. I'll be looking for a job or trying to figure out how to survive my boss and stay here. One of two choices. But I guess I'll try the sigils anyway, once I make a very clear decision about what I should do, stay or leave. In the end it just seems like you have to wish for the best and for the best only, not harming, not getting even. Thanks and keep the opinions coming.

 

[_Lizard23_]

Well, in regards to rituals in daily life it depends on what you mean. If one talks about habits and routines then yes,if one talks about rituals for an effect that takes placeby putting belief in god(s), sigils and magic, then no, not everybody does.

Well no, clearly. What I'm getting at here though is whether you think there is something inherently unhealthy about doing so.
I mean you reckon you're a trick cyclist or whatever (hey it's the internet, you could be a 12 year old majorette for all I know) so is it basically your professional contention that any form of religious/supernatural (however you want to call it) belief system is essentially undesireable? How do christian psychologists deal with that one? Or those of other faiths? Or people like Dion Fortune or Israel Regardie or (struggles to think of more modern example ... but I am sure there are some) other magician psychologists? Are they just cranks? All nutters? A disgrace to the profession? Just from a different school? Just individual people entitled to their own opinion so long as it doesn't interfere with their work?
I've had run ins with shrinks occasionally and discussed magic(k) with them and found they mainly just shrugged ... perhaps just the least of my worries heh .... certainly not considered it to be the cause or contributor to any problems I may have been having, rather more or less said 'it's good to have a hobby'.

 

[Anonymous]

Ah, I see where you are coming from now. No, I don't say that religious beliefs are non desirable. For whatever reason, humans seem to like mystery, the numinous, supernatural, call it what you will. The major religious beliefs have been around a long time and, in effect, offer good counsel in regard to the tennents of the (relevant) faith. As these religions are so ingrained into the culture, separating desirable from non desirable psychology is impossible. My own view is that when religion impinges on freedom and forces people to damage etc others, then there is a fundamental flaw in thinking. I have read Dion Fortune and others, and have enjoyed them very much. Psychic Self Defence being one of the first MagicK books I ever read.

The problem with explaining things from a psychological perspective is that many areas seem as though common sense should explain them and research shows the opposite. In regard to non desirable beliefs and perception, I always use this example: A man in a loin cloth is walking down the high street claiming to be the sun of god. Result, in the UK, he will probably be taken away for mental assessment. 2) A man in a loin cloth is walking down a road, claiming to be the son of god, but has 100 followers behind him. He may be considered a religious leader (in the UK he will probably get 'done' for disturbing the peace). So, cultural perception of belief is a vital component in determining psychological functioning. I get worried about terms like desirable or non desirable - I prefer to think of issues of mental health in terms of how well an individual can function in society, and how the people close to them can deal with that person's cognition and behaviour.

Anyhoo, my concern about sigils is that it is a piecemeal discipline; it is outside the mainstream of western belief patterns. So, by using them, if telling others, you may provoke a reaction. Now, you may say this doesn't matter. But approval from others is vital to our mental health. How would it be if some people started doing the behind your back? How would you eventually be perceived? In essence, you will probably find more problems with your life. If you keep the sigils quiet, well...nice if the situation changes, but what if it doesn't? What if your belief and trust and want of change become so tied up in the process (c.f. people who spend a lot of the money on the lottey).?

I have no problem with people wanting to experiment and see if there is an effect with sigils or magick, I have problems when somebody is clearly in distress and wants to change their life. Sigils, are not the answer and may very well cause more problems, via disapointment. My advice is self belief and effort. Play with sigils as a past time, but don't count on them.

 

[zoltan_g]

But for sake of argument, pretending that they (sigils) could work, then the thrice fold law of return comes into affect. Basically, this states that should you do something nasty to someone with 'magic' there will be 3 times the amount of shite coming back to you. Think of it as fast action karma.

Nahh, that's just for those fluffy wiccan types, curse the hell out of the bugger.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: Now if I said that, the number of ignores on my account would treble.

 

[gridban]

I don't know whether sigils work or not as I've never tried them myself, but I don't think using them indicates belief in an outside locus of control. If you use sigils, you're not just trusting in fate, you're actively working to change your fate. Nevertheless, if you want a better job, I'd start by looking for one, I don't think the sigils are likely to work on their own. Reminds me of a Buddhist friend of mine, whose fellow Buddhists advised her to chant for a better job - unless you're actively looking for a better job, it's like praying to win the Lottery, without buying a ticket.

 

[Anonymous]

Gridban wrote:

don't know whether sigils work or not as I've never tried them myself, but I don't think using them indicates belief in an outside locus of control. If you use sigils, you're not just trusting in fate, you're actively working to change your fate.

Well, you say if you use sigils you're trying to change your fate. How? how is this accomplished? Surely one must believe in the efficacy of said sigils? If so, then this outside power that effects change would be an outside locus of control. I should point out, as I have above, that the idea of in and out (loci) are not categorical, but along a dimension. If one is crossing one's fingers and hopping up and down (at a horse race) and doing all of the usual praying to the gods of the turf, then if this is something that is fitting within the environment (and not a gambling problem etc) then that is fine and would not, from the one behavioural set, indicate any particular loci. If you are saying that a person can play with sigils, then I say fine too. If you say that they should do so with an expectation (key point) of change, then I have to take issue. Note: have I taken your point correctly?

 

[Anonymous]

In a scenario like this maybe only direct experience can determine the effectiveness of something like sigil work.

I suggest that GaddafiDuck be a guinea pig / volunteer for a sigil magick experiment to determine its "effect" on him. This would give him a sporting chance to have direct experience of it. Would you risk your job over this debate GaddafiDuck?

What does the forum think?

 

[OneWingedBird]

If so, then this outside power that effects change would be an outside locus of control.

But what if the sigil is simply serving to focus your mind on the task and what you want to achieve, is it then still an outside locus of control, or just a tool?

I'm not sure i agree with your point on approval either, i mean, whatever course of action you choose in any situation, there's going to be someone who dissaproves of it, that's just something you have to think through and deal with...

 

[Anonymous]

Wowsa. Do what you like. Write sigils, use a crystal ball; raise a coven. Anything you like at all. :lol: The effect on me will be zero. Pray continue. Indeed, if you want to try any psychological tricks on me, tell me what you are doing...see if it alters my belief pattern. Go for it...

 

[Anonymous]

Indeed. Wagering my job? I assume you mean you will cause me to lose my job? Go go go go go for it :lol: It would be a blessing.

Edit: rather than all the wooly magic(k) stuff re: vagueness, how about informing someone here (not me, unless you want) exactly (exactly) what effect this will have and when - precise details please. They can then ask me roundabout questions etc (and some false questions so I don't anticipate) and we can see if there is any effect. 8)

Second edit: PM me as necessary

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Ooh! It's just like that film with Dana Andrews! :shock:

You know:

"Dana Andrews said prunes
Gave him the runes
And passing them used lots of skills"

:madeyes:

 

[Anonymous]

Hey Pietro...would you like to moderate the experiment?

 

[Pietro_Mercurios]

Hey Pietro...would you like to moderate the experiment?

I don't think trying to put it all in a scientific frame would be part of the magick. Not if 'a growing feeling of dread' was part of the working.

 

[Anonymous]

:lol: Never going to happen to me I'm afraid. Remember that episode of star trek (ok coral one) where spock mind melds the crew so the imaginary bullets won't hurt them. I have that mind set. I have absolutely no belief that magick effects change in the environment by the methods described for this thread. To me, it's like trying to convince a rocket scientist that a kid's gocart is capable of supraluminal speeds. I don't have much sense of fear from the dark or the mysterious. And no psych tricks (apart from those by Derren Brown type people) are really going to affect me either...as I've made it a hobby to try and work out these type of things (e.g. persuasion theory, nlp, hypnosis, covert hypnosis, suggestion, attention altering and so forth).

 

[elffriend]

Sigils do work, I have done many over the years NEVER though to influence or harm another person and always to better myself.

However just as effective is Barbel Mohr's Cosmic Ordering Service.

Book

 

[zoltan_g]

:lol: Never going to happen to me I'm afraid. Remember that episode of star trek (ok coral one) where spock mind melds the crew so the imaginary bullets won't hurt them. I have that mind set. I have absolutely no belief that magick effects change in the environment by the methods described for this thread. To me, it's like trying to convince a rocket scientist that a kid's gocart is capable of supraluminal speeds. I don't have much sense of fear from the dark or the mysterious. And no psych tricks (apart from those by Derren Brown type people) are really going to affect me either...as I've made it a hobby to try and work out these type of things (e.g. persuasion theory, nlp, hypnosis, covert hypnosis, suggestion, attention altering and so forth).

This sounds fun, I'll volunteer as a sigil caster if you like.

 

[Anonymous]

Is there not going to be a cumulative effect with all these spells? What will happen? Sigil away. Is anyone going to try and do something nice?

 

[zoltan_g]

Is there not going to be a cumulative effect with all these spells? What will happen? Sigil away. Is anyone going to try and do something nice?

Who knows? Hang on, shouldn't we get someone to 'moderate' first and give them the intentions behind the sigils to see if anything happens?

 

[gridban]

Note: have I taken your point correctly?

Yes, I think so. I don't know much about sigils although I have read about them and have a vague idea what they are and how they work. It just seems to me that using magic to effect change in the physical world is far from passively entrusting your life to fate. There may be an outside locus of control but surely the use of magic, whether sigil magic or another form, means you think you can influence said locus? And none of us has complete control over our own lives, do we?