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Do Spirits Have A 'Real' Existence?

when multiple people all see something, each one of them is seeing something different? Or would a dominant personality 'project' their own image sufficiently that others could see it? (Telepathic transmission is something I consider a strong possibility in multiple sightings).
If some phenomena happens at telepatic level, then you cant have never a physical proof of it, but it would keep on having the same properties of the material experience like the persistence and the sharing of the experience, but maybe only to the group that is connected to that
 
Therefore, if there is some way that a person's spirit/life force/essence or whatever goes on beyond their corporeal death, then it does so in a way not bound by the laws of physics so they are either in another universe, an unknown dimension of this universe
The experience of the mistic and magicians reaching the akashic or spiritual level, refer some interesting qualities that maybe are not completely out of a rational view. Of course apart of the usual reference to a perception that is out of time and space there is another treat of this kind of experiences that can be very interesting from the point of view of the research. Peolple on this levels say that they see a kind of film, but, as the films, it lacks of real deep dimension. Is like watching a cinema screen were you cant move your head from side to side viewing the proportions of things changing. So it gives to some hipotesis that can bound all this informations without being irrational. And the hipotesis is that this kind of phenomena happens when we can reach the perception of the universe in 2D. We are adjusted to perceive the universe in 3D and in the third dimension space and time arises. But if there is a 3D it implies that there are a 2D and even a 1D dimensions.
Some noticeable scientist are interested on this aproach is called the "Holographic theory" of the universe. One of the most important on that aproach were physician D. Bohm, who at the same time realized of the implications on many mistery phenomena, of that theory.
 
Anyone here have any experiences with a Ouija Board??
Hah! There's a whole thread on here about the ouija...

There are multiple Ouija threads. The two main ones are:

The Ouija Board in general:
The Ouija Board
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-ouija-board.245/

First-person experiences with the Ouija Board:
Experiences With The Ouija Board (IHTM)
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/experiences-with-the-ouija-board-ihtm.23113/
 
I tend to think that ghosts are more a cultural construct than a supernatural phenomenon. The ghosts of Japan are very different to the ghosts of England, the ghosts of the plains native Americans are very different to the unquiet spirits of the Meso-americans. A classical Greek ghost is very different to a Hebrew ghost.
Are we to believe that these are all manifestations of the same phenomenon?
Prof Brian Cox is on record as saying that we have a pretty good idea of how energy behaves in this universe, with our laws of physics. And energy without material form dissipates and cannot maintain coherence. Therefore, if there is some way that a person's spirit/life force/essence or whatever goes on beyond their corporeal death, then it does so in a way not bound by the laws of physics so they are either in another universe, an unknown dimension of this universe, or only in the imagination of people.
I think that perceived traits of spirits are transference by observers of their interpretation of what the observed phenomenon is.
Look at how many researchers, scientists and debunkers have passed on. Do you think Houdini would not have come back to prove his point were he able to do so? And by the same token, look at all the adepts, enlightened ones, religious leaders and believers that have passed on, were they able to, do you not think they would have given a sign?
I know many argue they have, but never in any definitive way recognisable by all.
It just doesn't make sense. If it was a real phenomenon, no matter how rare, or difficult to accomplish, if it was possible, it would happen more than it does, given the legions of the dead.
It just doesn't add up.
At least, not in my view.
Do you think Houdini would not have come back to prove his point were he able to do so?
LOL no, to prove his point he'd NOT come back!

Think you're onto something with the cultural construct but I also think it might be a cultural (christian? maybe other religions too) construst to interpret "ghosts" as "spirits"...
 
Telepatic, and cultural construct are not opposite hipotesis. Anybody would trend to get more conexion with people that share similar mental topics, and in other way they would be more ready to read quite abstract perceptions in a way that fits on some cultural topic.
 
I tend to think that ghosts are more a cultural construct than a supernatural phenomenon. The ghosts of Japan are very different to the ghosts of England, the ghosts of the plains native Americans are very different to the unquiet spirits of the Meso-americans. A classical Greek ghost is very different to a Hebrew ghost.
Are we to believe that these are all manifestations of the same phenomenon?
Prof Brian Cox is on record as saying that we have a pretty good idea of how energy behaves in this universe, with our laws of physics. And energy without material form dissipates and cannot maintain coherence. Therefore, if there is some way that a person's spirit/life force/essence or whatever goes on beyond their corporeal death, then it does so in a way not bound by the laws of physics so they are either in another universe, an unknown dimension of this universe, or only in the imagination of people.
I think that perceived traits of spirits are transference by observers of their interpretation of what the observed phenomenon is.
Look at how many researchers, scientists and debunkers have passed on. Do you think Houdini would not have come back to prove his point were he able to do so? And by the same token, look at all the adepts, enlightened ones, religious leaders and believers that have passed on, were they able to, do you not think they would have given a sign?
I know many argue they have, but never in any definitive way recognisable by all.
It just doesn't make sense. If it was a real phenomenon, no matter how rare, or difficult to accomplish, if it was possible, it would happen more than it does, given the legions of the dead.
It just doesn't add up.
At least, not in my view.
Houdini knew he was dying:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/what-caused-harry-houdinis-mysterious-death

A common theme among the more reputable ghost experiences is that it is the 'shade' of someone who died suddenly/violently
 
I always felt like spirits are having a sad existence because they can not move on or they do know they are dead.

I don’t know of a case where a spirit caused any harm but just misunderstood.

I am staying away from some religious doctrines of devils and demons which I don’t personally believe in.
 
A good thread to simply copy and paste something i wrote on the Dreaming of the Dead thread as it may answer some of these questions if taken at face value:

In Leslie Kean's book Surviving Death, Chapter 20 is turned over to the well known expert on ghosts, Loyd Auerbach and the subject of Interactive Apparitions.

Basically in involves him and his colleagues going to visit a family seemingly haunted by the ghost of a former owner of the house they live in. She's witnessed particularly by the young son. What makes the reported case so unique is that Auerbach reports essentially interviewing the ghost via the boy. The kid can seemingly see and hear her (Lois) like Jimmy Stewart could see and converse with the otherwise invisible Harvey the rabbit. They ask her questions and the boy reports her replies. What makes it tantalising is that the information that is passed on is not only accurate about the deceased but about the investigators themselves and private conversations they were having in the car on the way to the house (Lois says she decided to hitch a ride with them as she was suspicious they were there to get rid of her and wanted to check them out!)

Anyway here's a transcript of the relevant passages in the chapter....

"Pat and her mother said they had seen the figure for fleeting moments, and she always appeared as an elderly woman. Chris, on the other hand, told me himself that he had been seeing her almost every day for more than a year and a half, since that first time he waved back at her. He told me she didn't always appear as an old woman. She often shifted her appearance, looking like a teenager, a six year old, a woman in her thirties, and sometimes middle-aged. When I asked him about her clothes, Chris said they changed all the time. Pat and her mother also admitted seeing Lois wearing different clothing, even though she was always the same elderly woman when they saw her. This was important to me, as was the appearance of Lois at different ages. Changing clothing and changing ages in the perceived visual, especially when coupled with interaction and communication, is an indicator of self-awareness and consciousness. "

During the "interview" with the ghost via Chris, the boy, it continues...

"I brought my questioning back to the issue of how Lois appeared in a form that people could see - how was that possible? Through Chris, Lois said she believed she did not have a "form". She believed she was some kind of "ball of energy" that was able to communicate by projecting her thoughts to others. These thoughts included visual and verbal information that she would "project into the minds of others" so they would "see" and "hear" her as if she were really there.
(.........)It meant that Lois was aware that she was literally telling Chris's mind what to perceive. They were not really, visually, seeing or hearing Lois. The information she "broadcast" added to their own perceptions. In communicating with Chris her "broadcast" was more intentional, directional, while with the others she was just putting out a " signal" which they turned out to be capable of perceiving.

(......) "Why was Lois appearing in different forms and clothing?" I asked. "Because that's how she felt that day," he replied. In other words it was Lois's own sense of self, her perceptions about the way she viewed herself that day (at a particular age, in particular clothing), that shaped her "projection" of herself. So why do ghosts have clothes? Because that's how most people visualize themselves...with clothing on."

Not directly relevant to this thread, you might be interested to know her reply to how and why she came to be haunting the house rather than being in some afterlife realm. She purportedly explains that as she was dying, and being a church raised believer in heaven and hell, she was concerned her love of partying left her at risk of being sent to the latter so "why take the chance". As she slipped away - she is claimed to say - she concentrated her thoughts and intentions on her beloved house and where she wanted to be at that moment. And the next thing she knew....
 
@gattino - You were the person who made me aware of Leslie Kean's works. So, a belated thank you! I highly recommend this book. Another good one: "Irreducible Mind," by Kelly and Kelly.

To respond to the question initiating this thread: yes, I think that spirits have an existence separate from living human beings, and that this existence is not dependent upon us. In other words, spirits are not (always) merely a projection, hallucination, or delusion of living human beings.

The problem, as usual, is defining non-overlapping categories of mysterious occurrences which have many overlapping characteristics. Ghosts, spirits, devils, astral projections of live persons, hallucinations, honestly mistaking ordinary things, etc.

I think living human beings are spirits temporarily inhabiting, and hypnotized by, consensual physical existence. It does amuse me to think of those who do not believe in the afterlife realizing after their death that they are still conscious. I hope I find Michael Shermer, when we are both dead, and comparing notes with him.
 
yes, I think that spirits have an existence separate from living human beings, and that this existence is not dependent upon us. In other words, spirits are not (always) merely a projection, hallucination, or delusion of living human beings.
For my experience on magic i can agree, but it brings a very unconfortable idea for someone that likes to keep some structure of rationality: How something that have no brain at all can have a complex will, not only some pulsions but rational análisis, strategy, and all the rest of parts that conforms the will?
 
Harry Houdini passed away on October 31, 1926 - will there be a seance planned on that night to see if Houdini comes back from the dead, 100 years to the day of his death?
 
Over the years I have seen some weird crap which I have no explanation for.

On one anniversary date in the past of my mother-in law death, my wife noticed written on a paper pad laying around the house the name of the American pianist Liberace which was her mother’s favorite performer.

Not written by us so spirits are real.
 
Surely this perceptions happen on a mental dimension. But that something happens on a mental dimension not implies that it would be simply a fantasy, a fantasy is a mental fact that happens in only one mind at the same time. But what will happen if that exact ( not only similar) fantasy will happen in 2 or 3 brains at the same time.
I wonder, too? As have posted here loads before, stepsister and I both saw the exact same thing. We know it was the same week. Because it was during a week they stayed at our house before our parents married and although the future steps visited several times before my dad married her mum, that was the only time she and I shared that certain room. But I never told her what I saw (she was asleep when I saw it) and she didn't tell me what she saw til we went out for a meal together 15 years later. My husband had heard me recount this many times before my stepsister spoke, so he nearly fainted as she recounted seeing what I had seen, too, all those years before.

We were two unhappy little girls, both recently bereaved, she was being dragged from the only home she'd ever known and we were having to get used to the idea of our home never being our own again. So it's classic, in that way - right gender, right age, and both traumatised kids.

I never told her what I saw or even hinted at it as she was a stranger and I thought she'd think I was nuts. She never told me for the exact same reason.

Why did we see the same thing in the same room? (Possibly not on the same night - we shared that room for a week, IIRC).

Should add, the house was badly haunted and I knew it, had known it my whole life. It was Borley Rectory levels. She didn't know it as nobody had told her. So not sure expectations play a part.

But this is what I struggle with. Generally I'd assume thought forms but... what are the mathematical odds two (then) strangers would see the same thing?

Should add: her story was identical to mine in terms of the fine details. Everything the same. I thought she was asleep when I saw it and she thought I was asleep when she saw it. It was closer to me than her but raised a couple of foot above floor level so she'd have seen it about as well as I did (next day when I told my dad, when none of the steps were around, he said he had indeed changed the floor level of that room before I was born, and it was originally a couple of feet higher - in retrospect I realised that detail was maybe why he believed me when I said I'd seen a ghost - he took it in his stride when I told him).

When we became stepsisters, we didn't get on - nobody's fault - two grieving kids only days apart in age and with diametrically opposite personalities and interests. So we had no mutual friends or even acquaintances. We went to a huge school and were a year apart, because my birthday fell just after the cut off date for that, her's just before. So anyone either of us ever told about it will never have spoken to anyone who was friends with the other. We had nothing to do with eachother. I wouldn't even eat in the same room as them unless forced. I never told my stepmother what I'd seen and she never told my dad. My dad was very sceptical re ghosts (or pretended to be) so he wouldn't have mentioned it to my very christian and easily offended stepmother. So I think there were no conduits through which either of us could have known what the other saw.
 
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For my experience on magic i can agree, but it brings a very unconfortable idea for someone that likes to keep some structure of rationality: How something that have no brain at all can have a complex will, not only some pulsions but rational análisis, strategy, and all the rest of parts that conforms the will?
I went to a reproduction of a wood henge recently. It was dusk and nobody else was there. And on impulse, thought I'd charge it up... Now to see whether reports of "strange things" in that area start occurring. :cool:

Somewhere on Secret Leeds is an interesting account of somebody who raised all kinds of forms in a particular house (probably in a student area)in the 1970s, that other people then saw, IIRC.
 
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