Doctor Who 2 (Avast! There Be Spoilers!)

GNC

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OK, who else laughed out loud when they saw those Brain of Morbius faces?! Obviously a sticking point for over forty years! Must admit, I thought she was a goner, but O me of little faith. That's a better explanation for how the Doc has over 12 regenerations than the one Moffat dreamt up, and it provides a nice mystery too. Top insanity acting from Sacha, even if the Cyber Time Lords were a bit throwaway.

Now we know why Mandip Gill said she didn't know if she would be back when asked in that interview. Next up: Revolution of the Daleks... I've really enjoyed this series.
 

eburacum

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I noticed that. They appear to be trying to clear up all the loose ends from Classic Who as well. It's the Cartmel Masterplan all over again.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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OK, who else laughed out loud when they saw those Brain of Morbius faces?! Obviously a sticking point for over forty years! Must admit, I thought she was a goner, but O me of little faith. That's a better explanation for how the Doc has over 12 regenerations than the one Moffat dreamt up, and it provides a nice mystery too. Top insanity acting from Sacha, even if the Cyber Time Lords were a bit throwaway.

Now we know why Mandip Gill said she didn't know if she would be back when asked in that interview. Next up: Revolution of the Daleks... I've really enjoyed this series.
Yes. A great hat-tip to the classic Tom Baker story.
Thought Sasha Dhawan's maniacal Master stole the show.
 

BaronHardacre

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Just watched it and... hmmmmm....

I have no real issue with fiddling with canon, but this just all felt a bit contrived, and rather more than that, illogical.
Why would the Master be quite so enraged...? I get that he's a mad villain (and by "mad" I mean, way overacted. Missy was rather better), but the way it was shown didn't really make much sense.

It would have been far more interesting having it be the Master who was the Timeless child, thus better explaining his rage at being experimented on for eons, and adding a layer of guilt to the Doctor for being part of the race that was responsible, as well as knowing that she was part Master.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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"having it be the Master who was the Timeless child "

I was thinking the same, but remember that the Master has only regenerated half a dozen or so times, as opposed to The Doctor's 13 or 14, so I suppose they needed to explain how The Doc could beat the 12 and you're out limit.
 

GNC

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But The Master had reached his 12th regeneration in The Deadly Assassin, which was why he was decaying so badly. Since then he's used Masterly magic to appropriate other's living bodies. Not that I have an issue with the Doc beating the 12 rule, it was always an arbitrary number anyway.
 

owenhere

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Nice to see the FT letter reassuring us that just because The Master had an entire run of the mag, it didn't mean the mag was for baddies, it was because the mag is for goodies and The Master was fooling the Doc by possessing such a publication. Personally, I'm relieved.
Glad to be of service
 

DougalLongfoot

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But The Master had reached his 12th regeneration in The Deadly Assassin, which was why he was decaying so badly. Since then he's used Masterly magic to appropriate other's living bodies. Not that I have an issue with the Doc beating the 12 rule, it was always an arbitrary number anyway.
I think he was given an extra cycle of regenerations as part of a deal to fight in the Time War wasn't he?
 

BaronHardacre

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The more I think about it, the more illogical and irritating it becomes*.

In trying to tie up loose ends, they've just created another issue; two hearts.
If the Doctor is a different species, then why do they have the same two hearts as the Gallifreyans...?

Basically, Chibnall has just created nothing more than a somewhat dark superhero origin story.
An orphan, with powers beyond the like of which their adopted world has never seen...? SuperWho, anyone...?

It's annoying, because up until the final episode, I'd rather enjoyed this series (season if you talk American).

*I'm aware I'm getting annoyed by a kids TV show, and probably just need a morning coffee.
 
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Kryptonite

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The more I think about it, the more illogical and irritating it become*.

In trying to tie up loose ends, they've just created another issue; two hearts.
If the Doctor is a different species, then why do they have the same two hearts as the Gallifreyans...?
I believe that his biology was altered when they wiped his memories. After all, if they were trying to hide his existence, it makes total sense that they would want him to be biologically the same as everyone else on Gallifrey and not attract attention.
 

BaronHardacre

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I believe that his biology was altered when they wiped his memories. After all, if they were trying to hide his existence, it makes total sense that they would want him to be biologically the same as everyone else on Gallifrey and not attract attention.
Okay, I realise that I'm thinking *way* too deeply on this, but how would that survive a regeneration...? 10 made a specific point about new teeth.
 
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Kryptonite

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Okay, I realise that I'm thinking *way* too deeply on this, but how would that survive a regeneration...? 10 made a specific point about out about new teeth.
What I meant was that they would alter his genes to make him indistinguishable from any other Gallifreyan. So, when the Hartnell Doctor is born (or loomed) he would be biologically exactly the same as any other Time Lord: 12 generations and a Gallifreyan body.

I'm not 100% sure I'm explaining myself properly here, but hopefully that makes sense. If not, I'll come back to this thread when my poor old brain is less tired
 

DougalLongfoot

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They showed the scientist woman listening to the timeless child's heart with a stethoscope. My guess is they had one heart, untill they spliced themselves with timeless child DNA.
Yes, I'm guessing that the Gallifreyans became like the Timeless Child, not the other way around. This is partly why the Master seems so annoyed, he now knows he is part "Doctor".
 

CuriousIdent

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Just watched it and... hmmmmm....

I have no real issue with fiddling with canon, but this just all felt a bit contrived, and rather more than that, illogical.
Why would the Master be quite so enraged...? I get that he's a mad villain (and by "mad" I mean, way overacted. Missy was rather better), but the way it was shown didn't really make much sense.

It would have been far more interesting having it be the Master who was the Timeless child, thus better explaining his rage at being experimented on for eons, and adding a layer of guilt to the Doctor for being part of the race that was responsible, as well as knowing that she was part Master.
Right up until the reveal Me and Mrs Ident were speculating the same thing. It just seems a bit vague that The Master would commit an act of whole species genocide based on the assumption that he was a bit pissed off over The Doctor having shaped his people and society. The motivation isn't quite right. It's iffy.

Personally, I think that The Master as the Timeless Child would have been the stronger play for the story, with the Doctor realising that the only way she could stop him was to literally snub out every last trace of her own people.

But I'm also aware that this was not just about a single story. It was about embracing some of the abandoned masterplan for the series which was jettisoned back with the cancellation of the show at the end of the 80s. A plan which was intended to restore some greater sense of mystery to The Doctor as a character.

It's been done in a bit of chaotic and messy way, with plotholes aplenty to explain away, but from an ongoing story POV one of The Doctor's greatest strengths is that regardless of where they are, and when, they have an implacable sense of self. Their past, their character, their moral fibre. The belief that they are a force for good in the universe. And that any race which feels otherwise does so purely because The Doctor stopped them doing something that they wanted, which would have had horrible consequences.

The hidden memories of The Division somewhat changes that. It seeds doubt in The Doctor. The realisation that there are potentially many lives which The Doctor not only doesn't remember but in which they may not have behaved quite so altruistically. Certainly badly enough to be labeled a fugitive. That genuinely they might have interfered unjustly in the lives of others. Something which has the potential to seriously mess with The Doctor's sense of values.

That's a very interesting notion. I just don't feel that it's been delivered as well as perhaps it could have been.


The more I think about it, the more illogical and irritating it becomes*.

In trying to tie up loose ends, they've just created another issue; two hearts.
If the Doctor is a different species, then why do they have the same two hearts as the Gallifreyans...?

Basically, Chibnall has just created nothing more than a somewhat dark superhero origin story.
An orphan, with powers beyond the like of which their adopted world has never seen...? SuperWho, anyone...?

It's annoying, because up until the final episode, I'd rather enjoyed this series (season if you talk American).

*I'm aware I'm getting annoyed by a kids TV show, and probably just need a morning coffee.
They showed the scientist woman listening to the timeless child's heart with a stethoscope. My guess is they had one heart, untill they spliced themselves with timeless child DNA.

That's the most viable option for an explanation that I can think of. As to whether that will ever be made plain to viewers, I guess we'll wait and see. But it's not the only loose end created here.

For one, from the recent-ish past, there's the issue of Clara. Clara supposedly saw and interacted with the entirety of the Doctor's timeline. How come she never saw the parts with The Division?

Where does the Fugitive version of The Doctor fit in chronologically? Because you would assume from the way it has been shown to us so far that The Division happened pre-first Doctor. But the Fugitive Doctor's buried Tardis is a police box. Presumably because of the legendary 'stuck chameleon circuit'. Which happened after the Hartnell era Doctor stole it from Gallifrey. So where does this fit?

Then there's The Master's past incarnation as Missy. She talked about her and the Doctor running around as Children. That now seems pretty unlikely. The timelines don't quite tally.

So, yes. Contradictions aplenty. I do think that going forward this could introduce some very interesting possibilities. But it's all a bit messy, nonetheless.
 
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Kryptonite

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Then there's The Master's past incarnation as Missy. She talked about her and the Doctor running around as Children. That now seems pretty unlikely. The timelines don't quite tally.

The Doctor speculates in the episode that the Division turned her back into a child, so I assume that when they wiped her memory, they forced a regeneration into an infant version of William Hartnell, which would have allowed her to meet the young Master.
 

CuriousIdent

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The Doctor speculates in the episode that the Division turned her back into a child, so I assume that when they wiped her memory, they forced a regeneration into an infant version of William Hartnell, which would have allowed her to meet the young Master.

Plausibly, I guess. Again, things I think we need to see on screen rather than speculate.

At the moment there are many things which hang as loose ends but provided they get tied up at a later point it doesn't necessarily need to be a problem. I do honestly see a lot of potential in these changes. It just depends on whether the writers and series can make good use of the new status quo.
 

Peripart

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Then there's The Master's past incarnation as Missy. She talked about her and the Doctor running around as Children. That now seems pretty unlikely. The timelines don't quite tally.
Talking of time lines, I really hope that the new Master is from long before Missy, not after (from his/her own perspective, that is). Missy's eventual redemption was fairly neat, and to turn that on its head seems a bit churlish.

As I said on a previous page, I could see the new Master fitting in before Jacobi's incarnation. I doubt that's the case though. Recent series seem very willing to chuck away any inconvenient bits from previous stories, and so I expect that the Master has simply gone bad again. A bit like how he has teamed up with the Cybermen... again.
 

sherbetbizarre

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Someone on another forum said...

Hint for Dr Who fans on the last episode: Just before the guy detonates the weapon at the climax, turn up your sound. You can hear
the master yell something out that sets up future episodes.

...if someone wants to try it.
 

Kryptonite

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Someone on another forum said...

Hint for Dr Who fans on the last episode: Just before the guy detonates the weapon at the climax, turn up your sound. You can hear
the master yell something out that sets up future episodes.

...if someone wants to try it.
You can see it on the subtitles too, apparently.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Put simply. It’s proper shit.
When The Joker - SORRY Master declares "Everything we were told was a lie" that pretty well flags up the fact that nothing that has ever been broadcast since Doctor Who started in 1963 can be safely taken as canon any more.
Don't even try to reconcile Brendan and the whole Timeless Child reveal with anything that has gone before, because false memories / fake news means down that path lies madness.
The writers have given themselves carte blanche to make up anything they want to henceforth, with no regard for 57 years of DW history.
 
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GNC

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Except it's not like that at all, they've just rearranged the furniture and given the place a lick of paint. It'll still be about a mysterious alien travelling through space and time with their companions as it always was.
 

Bad Bungle

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I once read a short comic strip about Dr Who landing on a mysterious spaceship which turned out to be a troop carrier full of activating Cybermen. This was a surprise to everyone as the Cybermen were supposed to be extinct, wiped out by the ingenuity of the Human Race who had invented the "glitter gun" - a weapon firing a spray of gold that caused respiratory failure.
The Doctor was drawn a bit like Peter Davidson and I read the strip decades ago. Fast forward to the last series and I was surprised to see the Doctor landing on a mysterious spaceship ...
 

CuriousIdent

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When The Joker - SORRY Master declares "Everything we were told was a lie" that pretty well flags up the fact that nothing that has ever been broadcast since Doctor Who started in 1963 can be safely taken as canon any more.
Don't even try to reconcile Brendan and the whole Timeless Child reveal with anything that has gone before, because false memories / fake news means down that path lies madness.
The writers have given themselves carte blanche to make up anything they want to henceforth, with no regard for 57 years of DW history.

Yes, and no.

While I don't write-off the possibility of literally any show-runner ignoring past continuity to suit themselves this doesn't mean that they will. The establishing of The Division doesn't invalidate Timelord society or any of the existing principles we have to understand over the history of the show.

It exists in the shadows of it. A splinter initiative. A black-ops organisation. A group which may not even have been known by the majority of other Timelords or their hierarchy, let alone endorsed by it.

As far as we are led to believe The Doctor retired from The Division. And it was at that point that his handlers chose to erase all knowledge of it from The Doctor's memory. Having somebody going around who could reveal its existence to the other Timelords was clearly considered far too dangerous to be allowed - and of course, they would also know that simply trying to kill him was not something which was going to work.
 

Peripart

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Bring back Peter Capaldi...or am I the only fan who liked him?

;)
Not at all. He's my favourite among the "new" Doctors, just a shame he wasn't always given the best material to work with. Tennant, Smith were fine, Eccleston only did one year (which I enjoyed), but Capaldi really seemed to blend the best of the various incarnations, including a decent chunk of Tom Baker, which has got to be a good thing.

I still find myself wondering, though, about the missed opportunity that was Paul McGann... one slightly dodgy movie, 6 minutes of prologue to the 50th anniversary story, and he still owned the role whenever he was on screen.
 
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