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Dr Steven Greer speaks...

J_Frank_Parnell

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well worth a watch if you've got just under 50 minutes to spare. no doubt he's been suffering from sleep paralysis or out of focus ice crystals etc. still, you'd probably trust his judgement if he was operating on you (he's a medical doctor, although that in itself will give you plenty of reason to immediately dimiss him out of hand).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ion%3Along
 
I stoped watching after aroung 7 1/2 minutes. I found the whole thing distastfull and a waste of my time. Is this how Ufology in the US has ended up? you poor folk. This guy just said all the right things to those gullible idiots in the audience. Why do Americans have to use the term ' smoking gun of evidence ' so much? This guy is a lying turd, its the sort of stuff that almost made me give up on the subject. The faster folk like him arn't around the faster Ufology can move on, but I doubt that'l happen any time soon ( say in the next 20 years ) too much cash to make yet :cry:
 
mothman8 said:
I stoped watching after aroung 7 1/2 minutes. I found the whole thing distastfull and a waste of my time. Is this how Ufology in the US has ended up? you poor folk. This guy just said all the right things to those gullible idiots in the audience. Why do Americans have to use the term ' smoking gun of evidence ' so much? This guy is a lying turd, its the sort of stuff that almost made me give up on the subject. The faster folk like him arn't around the faster Ufology can move on, but I doubt that'l happen any time soon ( say in the next 20 years ) too much cash to make yet :cry:

how do you know he's lying?
 
The most absurd aspect of Greer's belief system is that the 'government' (by which he means the US government, none of the others being important enough) have got access to reverse engineered alien energy technology, and they could use this to solve the world's energy problems at a stroke.
But, it appears, they choose not to do this, instead involving themselves in dangerous and morally dubious wars in oil producing countries instead, to protect the supply of a resource they (apparently) do not need.
 
so you think that if this technology were available, a government, run by an oil man and with huge backing by the oil industry, and the oil industry and all its related industry and service providers would suddenly give up their huge wealth and power for the good of humanity? that, sir, is absurd.

if this technology does exist and it is kept secret to develop weapons to which potential adversaries would have no match then this would be highly plausible.

why though not just get rid of conventional weaponry? there is no need. as eisenhower was only too aware, the military-industrial complex is a big big thing. it would loose cash and power if it got rid of conventional weapons. secondly, conventional weapons serve a number of purposes. they are probably cheaper to maintain, keeps the rest of the would unaware of knock-out blow technology and just keep those budget cheques coming.
 
Yes, it is an interesting world view; unfortunately it is complete fantasy. No UFO energy tech exists in the wings waiting to save us from the effects of Peak oil.
There are many arguments I could make to back this up; but the most compelling to me it the fact that ZPE is thought nowadays by top physicists to be unusable.
If ZPE enegy technology had been retro-engineered by US army physicists decades ago, then the rumours would be rife in the physics community.

not a whisper.
The xenobiology community is even leakier- no rumours there either.

I'm sorry, but if there were any aliens or alien tech anywhere in the world, we would know by now.
 
J_Frank_Parnell said:
if this technology does exist and it is kept secret to develop weapons to which potential adversaries would have no match then this would be highly plausible.

Then why not use it to dig themselves out the hole that is Iraq, or any of the other miltary holes that the US has dug itself into over the years? Alot of the time the drooling over alleged super technology that goes on in the conspiratorial wing of ufology seems to interfere with rational thinking. Somehow we have to believe that this super-duper military technology is not being used at all in any military situations.
 
Jerry_B said:
J_Frank_Parnell said:
if this technology does exist and it is kept secret to develop weapons to which potential adversaries would have no match then this would be highly plausible.

Then why not use it to dig themselves out the hole that is Iraq, or any of the other miltary holes that the US has dug itself into over the years? Alot of the time the drooling over alleged super technology that goes on in the conspiratorial wing of ufology seems to interfere with rational thinking. Somehow we have to believe that this super-duper military technology is not being used at all in any military situations.

what hole? it's all going to plan. keep firing does bullets, keep making me rich , kid. its a puppet war. they want to prolong it anyway.
 
eburacum said:
Yes, it is an interesting world view; unfortunately it is complete fantasy. No UFO energy tech exists in the wings waiting to save us from the effects of Peak oil.
There are many arguments I could make to back this up; but the most compelling to me it the fact that ZPE is thought nowadays by top physicists to be unusable.
If ZPE enegy technology had been retro-engineered by US army physicists decades ago, then the rumours would be rife in the physics community.

not a whisper.
The xenobiology community is even leakier- no rumours there either.

I'm sorry, but if there were any aliens or alien tech anywhere in the world, we would know by now.

can you please explain how you know everything in the universe, please?
 
J_Frank_Parnell said:
what hole? it's all going to plan. keep firing does bullets, keep making me rich , kid. its a puppet war. they want to prolong it anyway.

But that's an assumption you're making. How do you know that 'they' want to do that? There's no point trying to make money if the world's economy goes belly up because of potracted wars.

If all of this super-duper technology was in place and able to be used, it would make more sense to use them and thus totally dominate and region (i.e. the Middle East). They could also have been used to wrap up Vietnam in a way that was more favourable to the US. But somehow we have to believe that these super-duper weapons are never used when they're needed most by the US. And as theories such a Greer's are decidedly America-centric, he doesn't seem to have relised that such technology could effectively lead the US and the US alone from totally dominating the world - something which would make far more money than the war in Iraq ;)
 
Anybody else think that he is a disinformation agent. Which leads me to believe that the british hacker guy that was looking for covered up ufo info actually did find the disinformation cover up that is the disclosure project. I've listened to greer interviewed multiple times and he hasn't said one thing that hasn't already been speculated to death in the field. I'm not sure what has been actually "disclosed?" Please correct me if I'm wrong about greer.
 
Saying that he's a disinformation agent probably gives him more credit than he's due ;)
 
Well, he makes me laugh - I'll be kind and give him credit for that at least ;)
 
I watched it all the way through. Some very impressive name dropping, if true. Kind of lose him when he gets to 'Zero Point Energy', Tesla and Faraday. But, definitely an entertaining talk, about, what has to be the ultimate, 'Conspiracy Conspiracy'. Even though he says that he's 'not a conspiracy buff, but...'
eburacum said:
The most absurd aspect of Greer's belief system is that
the 'government' (by which he means the US government, none of the others being important enough) have got access to reverse engineered alien energy technology, and they could use this to solve the world's energy problems at a stroke.
But, it appears, they choose not to do this, instead involving themselves in dangerous and morally dubious wars in oil producing countries instead, to protect the supply of a resource they (apparently) do not need.
But, he doesn't actually say any of that in the video. His Government is much more shadowy and run on a 'need to know' basis, by MegaCorporations, the ultra-rich and Above Top Secret (Military) Departments. All, hiding the the truth about new (alien) technologies to preserve their grip on World (fossil) Energy & World Power.

Strictly X Files territory with Governments within Governments.
 
Saying that the megacorporations and the military/industrial complex/shadow government is suppressing reversed engineered ZPE is as absurd as expecting a stone age culture to hide steel tools in order to preserve the flint-knapping monopoly. Vacuum energy would make the megacorporations rich beyond the dreams of avarice. and ensure that whichever faction controlled it would dominate the world for the foreseeable (and unforeseeable) future.

ZPE was looking quite feasible about twenty or thirty years ago, when a lot of speculative articles and science fiction were written about it. These articles and stories have no doubt influnced Greer, and other ZPE nutters like Haisch and Puthoff. Since that time the reality of vacuum energy has become a little more apparent- it is very, very thinly spread out, and could never be useful as a large scale energy source.
And ZPE (as originally envisaged) would be so useful that it could be used without limits; the galaxy and universe would be full of waste heat from ZPE power stations. A ZPE wielding civilisation could move planets and stars around, re-arrange galaxies, create new suns to burn in the skies.

Rather than the dominant souce of energy in the sky being stars and suns, the major part of the light from the sky would come from ZPE wielding aliens. It doesn't, so that suggests that vacuum energy doesn't work, or there are no aliens. Or both.
 
eburacum said:
Saying that the megacorporations and the military/industrial complex/shadow government is suppressing reversed engineered ZPE is as absurd as expecting a stone age culture to hide steel tools in order to preserve the flint-knapping monopoly. Vacuum energy would make the megacorporations rich beyond the dreams of avarice. and ensure that whichever faction controlled it would dominate the world for the foreseeable (and unforeseeable) future.

...
There's historical precedent for the suppression of new technology, a bit more recently than that, during the Iron Age, in the original Roman Empire.
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/003933.html

July 14, 2003
Monday


Terence Kealey on the fall of the Roman Empire
Brian Micklethwait (London) Historical views • Science & Technology
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The dominant 'story' of economic development is that science gives birth to technology, and technology makes money. But who pays for science? That has to be the government, the community, all of us. Because, who else will? So, economic development depends on a strong state, because only a strong state will pay for all that science.

Terence Kealey, in his book The Economic Laws of Scientific Research, tells a different story. Strong states destroy freedom. Weak states allow it, and thus allow capitalism, which pays for technology, which stimulates, pays for and is in its turn stimulated by science (the causal link between technology and science is that technology causes science at least as much as science causes technology), and technology also (Kealey accepts the usual causal link about this bit) causes increased prosperity.

The early chapters of this book supply an excellent potted history of pre-industrial Western Civilisation and its development. Here are the paragraphs that describe the fall of the Roman Empire:

So unconcerned with research did the Roman State become, that the Emperors actually suppressed technology. Petronius described how: 'a flexible glass was invented, but the workshop of the inventor was completely destroyed by the Emperor Tiberius for fear that copper, silver and gold would lose value'. Suetonius described how: 'An engineer devised a new machine which could haul large pillars at little expense. However the Emperor Vespasian rejected the invention and asked "who will take care of my poor?".' So uncommercial had the Romans become, their rulers rejected increases in productivity. In such a world, advances in science were never going to be translated into technology. Thus we can see that the government funding of ancient science was, in both economic and technological terms, a complete waste of money because the economy lacked the mechanism to exploit it.

...
Greer explained that it's not all about money in his talk. It's a 'power thing' and the need 'not to upset the applecart.'

Maintaining the 'status quo', that's latin, you know. ;)

Greer reckons that the release of alien technologies would mean the democratisation of energy production. The monolithic corporations would collapse and the World, as we know it would be utterly transformed. Capitalism would fall, as the means of production finally fell into everybody's hands, from outer space. Or, at least, that's what the shadowy conspirators fear, allegedly.
 
Its going to be interesting to see if America does use any of this so called hidden technology once China overtakes it both in Economy and militaraly might. In the next 20-25 years I can see China becoming the largest economy inthe world and not soon after have a military presence America will struggle to deal with. China taking ove top spot is one of the main reasons I don't beleive in the new world order, suppressed tecnology etc as this rising of a nation contradicts it all. So many on the web go on about how a secret governnment and or America controls everything yet how come this is happening?? If this were true we should see America use all this hidden crap to get back to top spot. Am I right or barking up the wrong tree :?:
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Greer reckons that the release of alien technologies would mean the democratisation of energy production. The monolithic corporations would collapse and the World, as we know it would be utterly transformed. Capitalism would fall, as the means of production finally fell into everybody's hands, from outer space. Or, at least, that's what the shadowy conspirators fear, allegedly.

I think all that really shows is that Greer fails to understand economics. The thing about corperations is that they have enough money to snap up and develop new technology, something which is beyond the man in the street. Corporations have become the main drivers of new technology and it's utilisation in a widespread sense over the past 100 years or so, so they would have the most to gain from any new technology. The energy wouldn't be 'free' - someone is always going to have to build the technology that creates it, and all of the components needed within that. I don't think it would bring about the fall of capitalism, any more than the introduction of the petrol engine did.
 
mothman8 said:
So many on the web go on about how a secret governnment and or America controls everything yet how come this is happening?? If this were true we should see America use all this hidden crap to get back to top spot. Am I right or barking up the wrong tree :?:

No, you're right. The conspiracy is very much orientated towards the West, and doesn't explain China's rise whatsoever.
 
Jerry_B said:
...

I think all that really shows is that Greer fails to understand economics. The thing about corperations is that they have enough money to snap up and develop new technology, something which is beyond the man in the street. Corporations have become the main drivers of new technology and it's utilisation in a widespread sense over the past 100 years or so, so they would have the most to gain from any new technology. The energy wouldn't be 'free' - someone is always going to have to build the technology that creates it, and all of the components needed within that. I don't think it would bring about the fall of capitalism, any more than the introduction of the petrol engine did.
Greer aside, Corporate Capitalism as presently formulated, is very much based on a 'Drug Pedding' model. We're the Users and they're the Suppliers. We're the Junkies who have to have what They peddle, be it energy, or goods.

I don't think we'll be seeing home ZeroPoint energy generators, or MultiPurpose home factories, in the shops, anytime soon. Even if they existed.

Why, the Chinese might start knocking them out for the Third World Market, then where would YoYoDyne MegaCorp. and the Western Way of Life be?

I love Speculative Fiction. :)
 
Much was wrtitten about reverse engineering, how it could have been at the origin of the transistor and so on... The problem with it is that it can't exist, it is an impossibility by itself.

Terence KEALEY's statements are interesting, but flawed. It is erroneous to put evil state vs good capitalism. The conflict is between free enterprise and free society on one hand. And ruling oligarchies on the other, be they state, corporate, private or religious. If a free energy was discovered, would the major oil companies and others try to supress it? Probably. An objection is that it would be a useful source of money. But they've got no guarantee they would put their hands upon the miracle formula. If they did, it would require a complete refitting of factories and channels. So, huge investments would be needed. A disapointment for their shareholders and management. The major companies live in a world with little actual competition. And they don't intend that it changes. There's no way they would permit the release of such an invention, unless they control it. So, they'd try to steal the formula, to buy it and to silence the inventor. In case of failure, they'd supress it.
 
The problem with it is that it can't exist, it is an impossibility by itself.
Interesting.
I don't believe for a nanosecond that we have ever reverse engineered anything, or even ever had any alien technology to attempt the process on; but why do you think it is impossible?
 
That's not because we have an alien technology at hand that we could duplicate it. A discovery needs a scientific context to be made, it can't come out of thin air. So the understanding of an item needs an elaborate brackground. Without it, we could never understand the way it works.

As an exemple, I'll take this one, imagined by Jacques VALLEE and Aimé MICHEL. If a peasant from XVIIth century found a radio set, and if he gave it to a scientist, what would happen? The scientist would be extremely disappointed by this set of strange components, plastic, diodes... A chemist could probably analyse (with great difficulty) their composition. But it could never comprehend the why: what is the purpose of the impurities? What is the purpose of this strange object? Even if he saw it functionning, it would be of little help. Without a knowledge of the physical principles involved, he would be in a total darkness. He and his successors would have been forced to grope their way along. Maybe this object would have given them some ideas, but in the end, it would need probably centuries to discover the laws involved. So, not much less than the amount of time it actually took, with no outside help. And a crashed flying saucer would probably be much more far ahead of our current scientific knowledge. So, if one or more of them was recovered (and I don't believe it), it would be more probably stored In a hangar. On it, there would be a sign which reads: "couldn't be opened".

Nonetheless, the myth of reverse engineering is one of the most successful. Why is a so flawed propaganda so efficient? The problem is that the field of ufology is overcrowded with so many pseudo-scientific people as Dr Steven GREER and his followers. I don't know if he is a disinformer. Or, more probably, a naive (to the point it is pathological) misinformant, who blindly repeats what he read. But in the end, it matters not, because the result is the same. He is one of the people who so badly hurt ufology, turning it into the mess it is now. Parrotting the gibberish spread by the AFOSI and other disinformation agencies from the 70s to the 90s. To the delight of the true disinformers. So, people like him are far from finished, unfortunately.
 
"If a peasant from XVIIth century found a radio set, and if he gave it to a scientist, what would happen?"

You're way underestimating the importance of simply knowing that a thing is possible.

If a scientist from the 17th century even saw a rigid, heavier-than-air flying machine in flight, then that one glimpse could be enough to set them on the right path. As Bill Sweetman pointed out, the technology for kites, gliders and rockets was around for centuries: if anyone had realised that you could attach a couple of rockets to a glider and create a viable flying machine it could have happened centuries before the Wright Brothers.

Similarly with the radio set. If it was in working condition, the scientist would quickly realise the notion of invisible signals in the air and could be down the path of electromagnetic radiation, waves etc centuries ahead of Maxwell. They were familiar with Leyden jars, so the battery as a source of stored electricty would be fascinating. They may not be able to replicate lithium-ion batteries, but the idea beneath it of using different compounds to generate a potential difference would be fruitful.

17th century people were just as bright as present-day ones, and in some cases far more so. Do we have a Newton or a Leibniz these days?
 
I wonder what would have been discovered or invented had Leornardo Da Vinci been around for a few centuries more.

He found things, designed and presented ideas things 400 years ahead of his time so I gather.

If this really is the case, then I wonder what he would have made?

What energies would he have pulled out of the air?

Imagine a machine that can pull energy from the air.

How?

Oh, I'm just imagining it to be something to do with tiny tiny particles that we cannot see moving around very fast and vibrating and spinning and colliding...molocules or atoms or something...maybe something even smaller?

Imagine the energies in the air that we cannot see!

All those particles moving and spinning and colliding...must be lots of energy in the air - and what if it could replace the one thing none of us seem to be able to have lived without for the past 100 years...electricity.

I wonder if in 200 years time we will look back and say "I think my great great grandmother probably used electricity, thank goodness I don't have to"

:D
 
>"Similarly with the Radio set...... a potential difference would be fruitful."
I partly agree.My idea is that such a discovery might lead to new progress. But more by introducing new ideas, not so by direct study and reproduction. But anyway, it would have been a very long and painful process. It would have been too revolutionnary, disrupting any previous knowledge. Probably, the scientists would have followed a wrong path. For example, theories of ether date back to this time. They would have analyzed the data through it, and lost much time. And the understanding of the reception, the transistors, the diodes... would be extremely slow and difficult, because they would necessitate an amount of sophisticated and totally unknown principles. Such as field effect, tunnel effect... And it would be complicated by their not knowing the purpose of these parts. So, with a flying saucer...

>"Do we have a Newton or a Leibniz these days."
Well, of course... Superstrings, supergravity, irreversibility of the time arrow, chromodynamics, antigravity, big bang and so on, these theories are very sophisticated and many researchers work on them. The theories of these two great scientists were ahead of their time. But now newtonian gravity and differential calculation are studied in upper secondary school. The progress of knowledge is made easier by the stratification of former discoveries. But, as it becomes more advanced, it's making progress slower and slower (on a fundamental level, as applications are more and more diverse).
The comparison with a sighting of planes in XVIIth century is interesting. Some people like Leonardo Da Vinci had some similar ideas. Nonetheless, they were not applied before the end of XIX th century. Because of conservatism, because of the difficulty of making discoveries which seem self-evident in retrospect (but not previously)... There is a similitude with UFO sightings. We can analyse them, calculate the speeds, the accelerations, the amount of energy needed by their manoeuvres or their lights... (but it seems that Dr Steven GREER was never interested in these simple tasks, he's more interested in nonsense with more mediatic appeal...) Yet, we still have no idea of the way they work. Yes, there are several interesting theories (antigravity, MHD). But they imply so many unknown factors that we can't tell if they have a chance of being true. And any application is not for tommorow (not even for this century, I guess).
 
In many ways I agree, actually.
An alien artefact which was the product of a civilisation tens of thousands or even millions of years ahead of our own could be complex and baffling, well beyond our current ideas of engineering.

The sort of technology used could be nanotech in nature- worse than that, perhaps picotech or even femtotech.
A device could be the result of biological or biotech-like manufacturing processes; and could use distributed or emergent control systems, which we would not be able to interpret without decades or centuries of study.

As an analogy you could consider the human brain; a mechanism made of physical materials, which can produce some remarkable output. Neuroscience has not even begun to scratch the surface of the task of understanding the brain. Perhaps one day we will be able to retro-engineer the human brain and reproduce its mechanisms; already the very simple nervous systems of insects are almost understood.
An alien artefact might be expected to have a comparable magnitude of complexity to a human brain, perhaps more, perhaps somewhat less; but that this the sort of task that could face a hypothetical retro-engineer.
 
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