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Villeneuve's Dune Films

Dune: Part Two: Sand, Sand, and more effing Sand! There is a certain Monty Phytonesque touch to Dune: Part Two. Paul insists he;s not the Messiah yet we get a scene straight out of Life of Brian with a gaggle of Fremen giggling as they proclaim him as the Messiah. This is a serious issue though; Chani (Zendaya) and other young Fremen reject the idea of a Messiah as something that holds them back and oppose the more conservative people. Chani still admire Paul though and their relationship flourishes as the narrative unfolds. Lady Jessica (Rebecca Fergusson) becomes Reverend Mother of the Fremen, surviving a grueling, deadly ritual. she heads south to win over the Fundamentalist Fremen to Paul's cause as the Messiah. The Emperor Christopher Walken) also casts a beady eye on Arrakis, his daughter, Princess Irulan (Florence Pugh) however is very much a creature of the Bene Gesserit. The Harkonnens continue to oppress the Fremen but the failure of Glisssu Harkonnen (Dave Bautista) to inflict a telling defeat lead to his replacement by Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen (Austin Butler), Baron Vladimir Harkonnen's (Stellan Skarsgård) youngest nephew and heir ("na-Baron") to House Harkonnen. All of these threads eventually entwine as the film heads towards it's conclusion.

Great battle scenes which at times reminded me of Lawrence of Arabia as armies on foot clash in great numbers and engage in sword fights. The one to one duels are also captivatingly cruel. The desert is very much a supporting actor as Paul earns his spurs as a Fremen fighter with the help of Chani. The guerrilla tactics of the Fremen are convincingly displayed as they destroy ornithopters and spice gathering machines, The war of the Flea at work. Villenue appears to be drawing analogies as he shows the ornithopters targeting people on the ground and the destruction of a Fremen habitat as collective punishment but make yiur own mind up about that. Butler plays Feyd-Rautha as a murderous sociopath who will do anything to achieve results to please Baron Harkonnen. He kills at will to provide human food for his three cannibal concubines. Too many in the ensemble cast to name them all but some great performances. All in all a triumph, Villenue may not be minded to make any sequels but I hope his directorial baton will be lifted by a suitable successor. Directed by Denis Villeneuve who co-wrote the screenplay with Jon Spaihts. 9/10.

In cinemas.
 
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Stormkhan said:
I think the Guardian's possible luke-warm reception of it comes from ambiguity.
The don't want to be seen promoting a 'fascist' movie (whatever that is) yet don't think the viewing public understand subtle things like satire or clever criticism (such as in Troopers). I don't read news papers, so have any reviews dipped their toes into the world of Dune being - on the surface - a story about a nomadic desert people rising up against alien occupiers who want to exploit the natural resources? I'd think this is more obvious than any 'fascist' interpretation.

Please note: this is not to open up debate about current affairs - this core implication (?) was in the original novel that the films are based on. You could use exactly the same premis on *boke* Battlefield Earth.
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There is also the whole "white Messiah" thing which, naturally, would give any self-respecting Guardianista an attack of the vapours.
There are those who would describe Paul Atreides as a thinly disguised Lawrence of Arabia.
 
ramonmercado said:
Dune: Part Two: Sand, Sand, and more effing Sand! There is a certain Monty Phytonesque touch to Dune: Part Two. Paul insists he;s not the Messiah yet we get a scene straight out of Life of Brian with a gaggle of Fremen giggling as they proclaim him as the Messiah. This is a serious issue though; Chani (Zendaya) and other young Fremen reject the idea of a Messiah as something that holds them back and oppose the more conservative people. Chani still admire Paul though and their relationship flourishes as the narrative unfolds. Lady Jessica (Rebecca Fergusson) becomes Reverend Mother of the Fremen, surviving a grueling, deadly ritual. she heads south to win over the Fundamentalist Fremen to Paul's cause as the Messiah. The Emperor Christopher Walken) also casts a beady eye on Arrakis, his daughter, Princess Irulan (Florence Pugh) however is very much a creature of the Bene Gesserit. The Harkonnens continue to oppress the Fremen but the failure of Glisssu Harkonnen (Dave Bautista) to inflict a telling defeat lead to his replacement by Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen (Austin Butler), Baron Vladimir Harkonnen's (Stellan Skarsgård) youngest nephew and heir ("na-Baron") to House Harkonnen. All of these threads eventually entwine as the film heads towards it's conclusion.

Great battle scenes which at times reminded me of Lawrence of Arabia as armies on foot clash in great numbers and engage in sword fights. The one to one duels are also captivatingly cruel. The desert is very much a supporting actor as Paul earns his spurs as a Fremen fighter with the help of Chani. The guerrilla tactics of the Fremen are convincingly displayed as they destroy ornithopters and spice gathering machines, The war of the Flea at work. Villenue appears to be drawing analogies as he shows the ornithopters targeting people on the ground and the destruction of a Fremen habitat as collective punishment but make yiur own mind up about that. Butler plays Feyd-Rautha as a murderous sociopath who will do anything to achieve results to please Baron Harkonnen. He kills at will to provide human food for his three cannibal concubines. Too many in the ensemble cast to name them all but some great performances. All in all a triumph, Villenue may not be minded to make any sequels but I hope his directorial baton will be lifted by a suitable successor. Directed by Denis Villeneuve who co-wrote the screenplay with Jon Spaihts. 9/10.

In cinemas.
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Sorry Ramon!
I've just got home and posted my reply to Stormkhan before reading that you'd* already made a comparison to Lawrence of Arabia.
That does sound like a valid observation.

*and Yith.
 
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blessmycottonsocks said:
There is also the whole "white Messiah" thing which, naturally, would give any self-respecting Guardianista an attack of the vapours.
There are those who would describe Paul Atreides as a thinly disguised Lawrence of Arabia.
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That is a 'thing' all the way from the original material.
The Fremen (and Arakis) needed a saviour - a messiah as it were. The planet hadn't got one, home-grown? They were not capable of self-determination? The concept of guerilla action and pressure hadn't occurred to them?
Nope. Stay in slavery until someone else comes along to give a solution.
Along comes House Atredes - involved in it's own long-held conflict with House Harkonnen, and with no input from the 'natives' - and gives them a ready-made messiah and cause celebre.
"Well, the prophesy said nothing about the Messiah being homegrown, eh?"
Forget the chest-beating of various media outlets, we're expected to spend a lot of money to go to see what looks like visually as a real dramatic treat! We all can judge on what we see and not what others tell us what we should see.
"Read this book. Now ... we'll tell you what you take away from it."
 
Stormkhan said:
The concept of guerilla action and pressure hadn't occurred to them?
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They were already engaged in a guerrilla war, they hadn;t managed to get the Fundamentalist Fremen in the South involved though. It's worth noting .that both Paul and Lady Jessica had to undergo potentially lethal rituals before they were accepted by the Fundies, Pail also had to prove himself as being proficient in desert craft and effective in a guerrilla attack before he was recognised as a Fremen Warrior. Without Chani's tutoring he wouldn't have survived the desert ordeal, She never accepted him as being the messiah. He had been trained to be a warrior and commander from an early age.

Anyway it's just a movie, not real life, we shouldn't get all Popular Front/ Peoples Front about it.
 
It’s all a bit fanciful for a car repair manual isn’t it?

TIL that after being rejected by 20 publishers, Frank Herbert's 1965 sci-fi classic Dune was finally picked up by Chilton Books. The publisher was previously known only for those big car repair manuals sold in auto parts stores.​

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I watched the new Dune II and loved it of course, and like many others it drove me to start re-reading the original novel. And it's so different - it would have to be, to be filmed of course. One notable point is that while a lot of the plans and scheming is rather obscure and unexplained in the movies (
what are the Harkonnens scheming with the Emperor? What is the Bene Gesserit's plan?
), in the book the characters just literally tell you. In detail. In the first two chapters. So that cleared a few things up for me. Another difference is the philosophical content/musings/ramblings, which I think is actually the point of the novels - quite literary themes about self-discipline, ecology, the cult of leadership, etc, are discussed in detail.

But the big one for me is the visual aspect. As is well known, the movies are a sumptuous, visually-stunning spectacle, and of course a lot of changes had to be made to make it coherent, filmable, and contemporary. However, I had forgotten how different the visual world of the book is - and part of me wants to see a film of that world, with Arrakis' dark skies and white sun in daytime, the Baron's office in gauche pink marble with gold highlights like some space oligarch, the ancient, dusty, feudal castles of the great houses, the conservatory room full of fountains and tropical plants, the cities of Arrakis with Leto Atreides' propaganda posters hastily plastered up - it's a luscious, chaotic, living world which feels very real to me and is full of striking images.
 
Mark Kermode seems quite impressed with Dune II, with the exception of Christopher Walken, who can only ever play Christopher Walken.
Referring to the film as "Space Jesus" and the references to Monty Python were amusing.

 
blessmycottonsocks said:
I agree and I'm a great fan of Paul Verhoeven - Flesh and Blood, Robocop and Starship Troopers were absolute masterpieces!
Verhoeven did though pile on the satire pretty thick with Troopers that resulted in me rooting for the bugs by the end!
The novel, which I read back in my student days, just like Dune, was rather more straightforward gung-ho fare and, IIRC, lacked the caustic cynicism of the movie.
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I could never properly enjoy Starship Troopers, since the powered armour was such a massive part of the book, to strip it out of the film made no sense.

Edit: In fact it would be like making a Dune film but deciding not to have any sandworms or spice.
 
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SimonBurchell said:
I could never properly enjoy Starship Troopers, since the powered armour was such a massive part of the book, to strip it out of the film made no sense.

Edit: In fact it would be like making a Dune film but deciding not to have any sandworms or spice.
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I think the powered armour made an appearance in Starship Troopers 3.
 
Anyway, Dune Pt. 2: BLUF: Superb.

The memsahib and l saw it at our local iMax on Saturday. l would rate it as a 9/10. That’s a half-point lower than l assigned to Part 1, simply because Pt.2 has a lot of ground to cover, so the first reel can seem a trifle expository. (There’s also the clanging Life of Brian echo. Surely by the time it went before a test audience - if not before - Villeneuve should have been aware and handled it differently?) Anyway…

There’s too much to comment on for this enthusiastic amateur, but high points included our Riefenstahl-esque introduction to the chilling Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, as he demonstrates his undoubted courage and combat skills in a black-and-white arena set piece. Beast Rabban shows his essential gutlessness as the Baron sets Feyd-Rautha in position over him.

Chalamet drives home the fact that he isn’t simply a girly-boy by showing Paul Atreides’ growth from dubious incomer to accepted warrior to messiah.

Jessica accepts her destiny as Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother to the Fremen and future mother of Saint Alia of the Knife, and we see a glimpse of Anya Taylor-Joy in that role. (Quibble: Does A T-J have to be in everything these days? One of the trailers in the iMax featured her in the new Mad Max flick…)

Having started fairly quietly, the film ends with a bang. ln fact a lot of bangs! Jessica, in her final frame, announces that Paul Muad’Dib has set the stage for a forthcoming Holy War, and this viewer is well up for it!

I was thrilled, fascinated and even stirred to tears, and it’s been a long time since a film had that effect on me.

Unmissable.

maximus otter
 
ramonmercado said:
They were already engaged in a guerrilla war,
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That's what gets me. The books say the Fremen are such good fighters even an 'untrained' Fremen housewife can take out a platoon of the best soldiers in the entire empire, the Sardukar. How are they losing versus the Harkonens, it made no sense in the books.
 
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kamalktk said:
That's what gets me. The books say the Fremen are such good fighters even a Fremen housewife can take out a platoon of the best soldiers in the entire empire, the Sardukar. How are they losing versus the Harkonens, it made no sense in the books.
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Because the Harkonens have advanced weaponry. The Fremen have old rifles, some captured heavy stuff. In hand to hand fighting the Fremen are superb but they don't win every fight.
 
kamalktk said:
That's what gets me. The books say the Fremen are such good fighters even a Fremen housewife can take out a platoon of the best soldiers in the entire empire, the Sardukar. How are they losing versus the Harkonens, it made no sense in the books.
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The Fremen are keeping a low profile under the Harkonens, content to be neglected by an incurious regime that has vastly underestimated their numbers and has no conception of their clandestine ecological project.
 
SimonBurchell said:
There's a Starship Troopers 3? Wait, there's a Starship Troopers 2?
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Indeedy.
ST 2 has different actors in it. It didn't do so well.
Then they made ST 3, with the same actors and arrogant characters that they had in ST 1.
 
Yithian said:
The Fremen are keeping a low profile under the Harkonens, content to be neglected by an incurious regime that has vastly underestimated their numbers and has no conception of their clandestine ecological project.
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Yes thats it.

Dont the Garuidian writers understand about stuff like ecology and working hard so your childrens children wont have to live in a desert?

That is what Dune is about.
 
Yithian said:
The Fremen are keeping a low profile under the Harkonens, content to be neglected by an incurious regime that has vastly underestimated their numbers and has no conception of their clandestine ecological project.
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While they don't have much weaponry during Paul's time, they do have some. And the Harkonen's don't know where the Seitches are (it's a plot point), so their wouldn't be too much fear of reprisal against the Seitches. We do know there can't be tons of Fremen though, the environment simply won't allow it. And they can't all go offworld to Jihad, while they control the Spacing Guild, there simply isn't enough ships (and some portion of the Fremen must stay on Arrakis to keep the spice flowing). And we also know the Jihad is ultimately successful, killing 60 billion people.

Based on that the Fremen's kill/loss ratio must be absolutely extraordinary. Thus a few Fremen, maybe extra angry and grabbing some of the weaponry they do have, should seemingly be able to take out an entire Harkonen settlement. The guerrilla war which the Fremen were already engaged in, should just be a slaughter.
 
kamalktk said:
While they don't have much weaponry during Paul's time, they do have some. And the Harkonen's don't know where the Seitches are (it's a plot point), so their wouldn't be too much fear of reprisal against the Seitches. We do know there can't be tons of Fremen though, the environment simply won't allow it. And they can't all go offworld to Jihad, while they control the Spacing Guild, there simply isn't enough ships (and some portion of the Fremen must stay on Arrakis to keep the spice flowing). And we also know the Jihad is ultimately successful, killing 60 billion people.

Based on that the Fremen's kill/loss ratio must be absolutely extraordinary. Thus a few Fremen, maybe extra angry and grabbing some of the weaponry they do have, should seemingly be able to take out an entire Harkonen settlement. The guerrilla war which the Fremen were already engaged in, should just be a slaughter.
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I read the book a couple of years ago and may be conflating Herbert and Lynch, but I thought the Fremen became much more powerful after Paul and Jessica taught them the Weirding Way (based on Prana-bindu training). Prior to that, they had been dependent of crysknives, which they were reluctant to take into towns and cities lest the capture of one—along with an authentic stillsuit—allow their foe clandestine entry to a seitch. Factor in also Paul's growing ability to view the future, and the Fremen led by him seem incomparably superior to those fighting a guerilla war against the Harkonnens.
 
Yup. Paul and Jessica's training in the weirding way swung the balance in favour of the fremen. In Lynch's version, it was a sonic weapon which beat personal shields; in the books, it was a hand-to-hand technique which gave superiority in combat on top of natural ability.
 
Just back from seeing Dune pt.2 and it's a 9/10 from me!

I would have preferred a bit less fighting/violence and more exploration of the metaphysical themes such as the effect of prescient visions, alternative future outcomes and the Bene Gesserit female line memory inheritance. But that's maybe just me.

I also noted that the concept of Paul becoming responsible for the spouse and children of Jamis (whom he killed in a 'fair fight') was omitted as was Alia (Paul's fully-aware baby sister, born amongst the Fremen) as a toddler who nevertheless kills Baron Harkonnen with a poison needle. Maybe these events in the novel were distasteful to the audiences of 2024?

I hope that Dune Messiah will be filmed.
 
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