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@Gizmos Mama

I also wonder about a fight amongst them.
Mixed gender group, possibly a love rivalry sparks a brawl?
 
@Gizmos MamaI also wonder about a fight amongst them.
Mixed gender group, possibly a love rivalry sparks a brawl?
The original investigation looked at that angle and went so far as to check to see if they had been sexually active. The conclusion was no.

Also there's no physical evidence for that sort of thing. None of the journals has anything like that in it. Also that as the reason they left the tent seems... suspect at best.
 
The original investigation looked at that angle and went so far as to check to see if they had been sexually active. The conclusion was no.

Also there's no physical evidence for that sort of thing. None of the journals has anything like that in it. Also that as the reason they left the tent seems... suspect at best.

They might not have been sexually active on the trip, especially in those temperatures, but it's mainly a group of mainly university students....who knows what went on back at campus.
 
They might not have been sexually active on the trip, especially in those temperatures, but it's mainly a group of mainly university students....who knows what went on back at campus.
Well apparently people did a lot of interviews related to that. 'cause they had friends and family who were still alive. Unless it was something that started during the trip the answer was no.
 
... What if it wasn't an external factor that made them flee the tent? Maybe a serious fight broke out, due to the harsh conditions and the earlier mistake that left them in that shitty situation, where they couldn't use the stove for warmth? ...

As I've mentioned before (check earlier posts in this thread) there are grounds for arguing group bonhomie might have been wearing thin.

The party's progress had slowed in the prior couple of days because warmer conditions generated slush on the frozen river's surface, they could no longer efficiently ski upstream, and they were forced to continue on foot using the snow-covered path alongside the riverbank in a much more laborious fashion.

The preceding day they'd arrived below the pass early enough to attempt to climb it, but had to turn back owing to strong "warm" winds. The following (last known) day they'd adjusted the trip plan and spent most of the day building a cache before ascending the pass. By the time they surmounted the pass the weather had deteriorated and they elected to not descend into the valley beyond as originally planned (according to one of Zina's journal entries*). Instead, they elected to pitch camp atop the pass.

*NOTE: When Zina wrote of the plan to cross the pass the intent was to establish their cache in the valley beyond. The fact they established the cache in the valley they were already in before ascending the pass suggests there'd been another change of plan sometime after Zina's written entry. This change of cache location means it remains unclear whether they'd also changed their plan to camping atop the pass versus continuing to the valley beyond.

There's a photo of their ascent to the pass showing them paused, with T-B and Dyatlov engaged in conversation. It looks like a serious conversation. I'm not sure whether this photo was taken the preceding day (when they turned back from the first pass attempt) or the final known day.

I suspect Zolo and T-B - the older and quite experienced "outsiders" relative to the others - were becoming concerned about the progress and prospects of the expedition. These two guys would end up as the best-clothed / shod corpses. I don't think that was a random coincidence.

Over the years I've mulled over this incident I've come to increasingly believe there was at least some measure of growing dissension in the group, and it didn't have anything to do with the mixed gender composition of the party. I think Zolo and T-B had reached an actionable level of concern by the time the party had hastily encamped atop the pass. Under this interpretation there was discord, and this discord influenced the course of events that resulted in all their deaths.

I have no firm opinion on whether the discord erupted into argument or even fighting within the tent. I do have a long-simmering suspicion that Zolo and T-B departed the tent separately from the others, and they did so earlier than their other / ill-clothed fellow trekkers.

Beyond these points it becomes impossible to clearly envision the course of events without generating a lot of possible storylines. The two questions I'd most like to have answered are:

- Did the party abandon the tent site all at once during that first night atop the pass (as has long been assumed), and if not - who left when?

... and given the answer to that ...

- Who discarded the flashlight several hundred meters downslope from the tent?
 
CHILLING TALE Deaths of ski trip students found half-naked & mutilated was blamed on aliens – but now the mystery has been SOLVED

THE mystery of the nine students found dead during a Siberian ski trip once blamed on ‘aliens and yetis’ has finally been solved after 61 years.


The cross-country skiers were killed by hypothermia in the notorious Dyatlov Pass in the Ural Mountains, Russian prosecutors have ruled.
...Senior state prosecutor Andrei Kuryakov said the group's tent was in danger from an avalanche and they party rushed to shield behind a ridge.

He said: "This was a natural avalanche limiter. They did everything right.

“But here is the second reason why the group was doomed.

“When they turned around, they could not see the tent. Visibility was 16 metres (52ft)."

They lit a fire and then searched for their tent - but it had vanished in the whiteout after the avalanche and they froze to death in temperatures of between minus 40C and minus 45C.

He said: "It was an heroic fight. There was no panic, but they had no chance in these circumstances.”

An experiment was conducted in an attempt to recreate the circumstances faced by the Soviet skiers.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12098078/dyatlov-pass-mystery-solved/
 
Interesting... I didn't think about white out conditions, and you may be underestimating how disorientating they can be.

I'm quite familiar with whiteout conditions (having spent considerable time in snowy climes).

It's entirely possible the final group evacuation down-slope occurred during heavy snow conditions. That would explain the lack of apparent running and people taking care to step in the footprints left by the person(s) in front of them. In other words, the apparently cautious and deliberate progress evident in the footprints may indicate dire environmental conditions rather than psychological calm.

Perhaps, if they pitched the tent and the wind was blowing, say, down the mountain, then, while they were inside, the wind direction changed? When they bailed from the tent, (for whatever reason) they were confused as to direction and in a panic, went downhill instead. Panic made them initially overlook they were running downhill until it was too late. And got separated. Each group camped at the nearest tree line, and could only figure out where the tent was and their mistake once the storm passed and daylight broke. By then, they were too weak from cold and injuries* to make it back.

It is known that there was a major change in wind direction reported by the "geologist's party" on Chistop. It is almost certain there would have been a major change in wind direction and intensity when the cold front invaded their location.

However, I doubt these experienced backcountry trekkers would have been relying on wind direction alone for navigating their course away from the tent, and I strongly doubt they would not have realized they were descending the slope rather than following the ridgeline. The path downward into the valley is circa 90 degrees off the path from which they'd arrived, and the entrance end of the tent was aligned back toward their arrival path.

The issue of their separation into 3 distinct groups (snow den; the cedar / campfire site; the trio attempting to climb back toward the tent) has usually been interpreted to mean they descended as a single group and divided while down in the valley. Even though this interpretation is still in play, I no longer believe it's the only way it could have happened.
 
I suspect Zolo and T-B - the older and quite experienced "outsiders" relative to the others - were becoming concerned about the progress and prospects of the expedition. These two guys would end up as the best-clothed / shod corpses. I don't think that was a random coincidence.

Over the years I've mulled over this incident I've come to increasingly believe there was at least some measure of growing dissension in the group, and it didn't have anything to do with the mixed gender composition of the party. I think Zolo and T-B had reached an actionable level of concern by the time the party had hastily encamped atop the pass. Under this interpretation there was discord, and this discord influenced the course of events that resulted in all their deaths.

I think this is what really happened, and the dissension, perhaps along with frayed nerves or erratic behaviour due to exposure, the tent was abandoned in the middle or just before the polar vortex hit. They couldn't find the tent, or they were to weak or stubborn to regroup, so they perished.

It would be really tempting to just say the local weather, bad decisions and deteriorating group dynamics were the cause of their deaths by simple exposure, but this still doesn't really explain the injuries, and why the tent was destroyed.

So many questions!
 
CHILLING TALE Deaths of ski trip students found half-naked & mutilated was blamed on aliens – but now the mystery has been SOLVED

THE mystery of the nine students found dead during a Siberian ski trip once blamed on ‘aliens and yetis’ has finally been solved after 61 years.


The cross-country skiers were killed by hypothermia in the notorious Dyatlov Pass in the Ural Mountains, Russian prosecutors have ruled.
...Senior state prosecutor Andrei Kuryakov said the group's tent was in danger from an avalanche and they party rushed to shield behind a ridge.

He said: "This was a natural avalanche limiter. They did everything right.

“But here is the second reason why the group was doomed.

“When they turned around, they could not see the tent. Visibility was 16 metres (52ft)."

They lit a fire and then searched for their tent - but it had vanished in the whiteout after the avalanche and they froze to death in temperatures of between minus 40C and minus 45C.

He said: "It was an heroic fight. There was no panic, but they had no chance in these circumstances.”

An experiment was conducted in an attempt to recreate the circumstances faced by the Soviet skiers.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12098078/dyatlov-pass-mystery-solved/

Well that's it then. Close the thread! :p
 
.... It would be really tempting to just say the local weather, bad decisions and deteriorating group dynamics were the cause of their deaths by simple exposure, but this still doesn't really explain the injuries, and why the tent was destroyed.

Some of the injuries on some of the victims were reasonably attributable to the circumstances of their final locations. Certain injuries on the two found at the cedar / campfire site were entirely consistent with the physical evidence that one or more people had attempted to climb the surrounding trees (presumably to break off limbs for firewood). The internal injuries of the four victims found in the "ravine" by the den site are consistent with four people falling 2 - 3 meters onto a rocky stream bed (with each person falling on the one(s) who'd fallen before).

The injuries most suggestive of a fist fight were found on Dyatlov and Slobodin - 2 of the 3 who apparently died attempting to climb the slope back to the tent. Along with Zina (the 3rd in the trio found up-slope from the cedar site) these were probably the persons most vested in maintaining the group's coherence as a unified party. This is especially true of Dyatlov, who was the designated party leader.

I have no problem envisioning a conflict in which these 3 represented the "status quo" and came to blows with others who were in a panic, conducting a virtual mutiny, or both. The question remains as to whether this conflict started at the tent prior to its abandonment or ignited once they were at the cedar / campfire site.

As to the tent ...

Circa three and a half weeks later the tent was found half-buried in snow. The first two searchers who discovered it (both personally acquainted with one or more of the missing trekkers) admittedly cut their way into the tent to check inside it. It's always been unclear how much of the damage to the tent represented its state "as found" versus its state after being cut open by frantic friends of the missing, taken down, moved a couple of meters to expose the contents on the separate canvas floor sheet, folded up, transported to the local investigation headquarters, thawed out, and hung up inside the headquarters where the eventual photos were taken.

The only hole in the tent that unquestionably pre-dated its discovery was the hole in the up-slope side of the entrance end, into which Dyatlov's own jacket had been stuffed.

At least some of the linear slits or rips in the tent fabric may well have been caused by the fierce winds known to have accompanied the cold front or snow load / wind during the circa 3.5 weeks the tent sat abandoned.
 
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Subsequent to the recent report, The Daily Mail has published a response from a lawyer representing the victims (or some of the victims'?) families.

The lawyer contests the findings of the report, and

Claims the deaths were linked to a nearby rocket.
Claims that the KGB took organ internal organ samples from the dead.
That he was in possession of "evidence" to contest the report's conclusion.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...reject-Russias-explanation-1959-incident.html
 
Anyone read Dead Mountain and Mountains of the Dead? Is one better thant the other? Looking for a recommendation

I prefer the Donnie Eichar book - his conclusion seems more realistic to me, and I'd say it was better written (although I may be being a bit unfair there, it's ages since I read the McCloskey book).

They are both worth a punt - but if I had to choose, I'd go Eichar.

(Not that it really matters, but McCloskey's book also has that terrible cover - the incongruous and very obvious addition to the archive photo just makes it look like a tacky 70's airport novel.)
 
I prefer the Donnie Eichar book - his conclusion seems more realistic to me, and I'd say it was better written (although I may be being a bit unfair there, it's ages since I read the McCloskey book).

They are both worth a punt - but if I had to choose, I'd go Eichar.

(Not that it really matters, but McCloskey's book also has that terrible cover - the incongruous and very obvious addition to the archive photo just makes it look like a tacky 70's airport novel.)
Thanks, I know what you mean about the cover, no need for it!

Eichar it is.
 
Some of the injuries on some of the victims were reasonably attributable to the circumstances of their final locations. Certain injuries on the two found at the cedar / campfire site were entirely consistent with the physical evidence that one or more people had attempted to climb the surrounding trees (presumably to break off limbs for firewood). The internal injuries of the four victims found in the "ravine" by the den site are consistent with four people falling 2 - 3 meters onto a rocky stream bed (with each person falling on the one(s) who'd fallen before).

The injuries most suggestive of a fist fight were found on Dyatlov and Slobodin - 2 of the 3 who apparently died attempting to climb the slope back to the tent. Along with Zina (the 3rd in the trio found up-slope from the cedar site) these were probably the persons most vested in maintaining the group's coherence as a unified party. This is especially true of Dyatlov, who was the designated party leader.

I have no problem envisioning a conflict in which these 3 represented the "status quo" and came to blows with others who were in a panic, conducting a virtual mutiny, or both. The question remains as to whether this conflict started at the tent prior to its abandonment or ignited once they were at the cedar / campfire site.

As to the tent ...

Circa three and a half weeks later the tent was found half-buried in snow. The first two searchers who discovered it (both personally acquainted with one or more of the missing trekkers) admittedly cut their way into the tent to check inside it. It's always been unclear how much of the damage to the tent represented its state "as found" versus its state after being cut open by frantic friends of the missing, taken down, moved a couple of meters to expose the contents on the separate canvas floor sheet, folded up, transported to the local investigation headquarters, thawed out, and hung up inside the headquarters where the eventual photos were taken.

The only hole in the tent that unquestionably pre-dated its discovery was the hole in the up-slope side of the entrance end, into which Dyatlov's own jacket had been stuffed.

At least some of the linear slits or rips in the tent fabric may well have been caused by the fierce winds known to have accompanied the cold front or snow load / wind during the circa 3.5 weeks the tent sat abandoned.

Thanks for the details on the searchers cutting the tent. I hadn't read that anywhere before, and makes more sense for them to have done it. T
 
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Thanks for the details on the searchers cutting the tent. I hadn't read that anywhere before, and makes more sense for them to have done it. T

It's also important to bear in mind that the cuts eventually ascribed as having been made from inside the tent weren't alleged to suggest they'd been cut from inside until the tent was hanging up in the administrative HQ in Ivdel(?). By that time the tent had been manipulated / manhandled quite a bit, and I'm not confident the apparent direction of the cut threads constituted much in the way of solid evidence.

Furthermore ... I'm not certain the first two searchers on the scene (friends of the lost skiers who discovered the tent) formally admitted they'd hacked their way into the tent prior to the inquest (after the seamstress's comments had initiated the notion the tent had been cut from within). I'm also uncertain whether these two guys ever positively identified which rips / cuts were on the tent when they found it (versus ones they'd made hacking into it).

There are all sorts of loose ends subject to variable interpretations in this story. The inability to pin down these details is a big reason the overall scenario / fatal sequence of events remains a mystery.
 
It's also important to bear in mind that the cuts eventually ascribed as having been made from inside the tent weren't alleged to suggest they'd been cut from inside until the tent was hanging up in the administrative HQ in Ivdel(?). By that time the tent had been manipulated / manhandled quite a bit, and I'm not confident the apparent direction of the cut threads constituted much in the way of solid evidence.

Furthermore ... I'm not certain the first two searchers on the scene (friends of the lost skiers who discovered the tent) formally admitted they'd hacked their way into the tent prior to the inquest (after the seamstress's comments had initiated the notion the tent had been cut from within). I'm also uncertain whether these two guys ever positively identified which rips / cuts were on the tent when they found it (versus ones they'd made hacking into it).

There are all sorts of loose ends subject to variable interpretations in this story. The inability to pin down these details is a big reason the overall scenario / fatal sequence of events remains a mystery.
Also it seems a lot of the evidence was tampered with before the investigation started.

Then there's the weird stuff. Stuff we CAN'T understand because we lack context. Like this:
Dyatlov-pass-Evening-Otorten.jpg

It's a mock publication created by the hikers as they were traveling.
In english:
Dyatlov-pass-Evening-Otorten-english-1.jpg

How much of this satirical commentary and how much is them just making jokes? Some of it seems like it's talking about their status, some doesn't.

Otorten is the name of the actual mountain that was their destination. How light-hearted is the joke about "recent reports" of yetis being seen in the area of Otorten?

What about the part discussing "birthrate among tourists"? Below it is a section talking about "lectures" about "love and tourism" by Nikolay Thibeaux and Lyudmila Dubinina. What does that actually mean? Were they romantically linked and making out in the campsite? "21st convention"? had they been making out daily for 21 days? (actually that's a silly notion unsupported by the diaries. the lectures were campfire discussions over dinner)

The group diary also mentions "discussion about love" started by Zina(while riding in a train). see: https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary Actually it also specifies that the tent is subdivided so that Zina and Lyuda have a curtain of sorts separating them from the rest of the tent.

The Sport section is interesting as it suggests that Yuri Doroshenko and Zinaida Kolmogorova found setting up their portable stove took over an hour. Hmm apparently the two had been a couple in the past, and Zina still had feelings of some sort for him, even if they weren't together.... why were the two of them working together to setup the stove?

I can see why people suggest romantic tensions might have been an issue. But more of a minor issue and not a "freeze to death in the snow" issue. Zina's diary doesn't talk about problems. The group diary doesn't suggest that there are major personal conflicts. The only one that does is an unlabeled personal diary that might have belonged to Dyatlov.

This site has a massive amount of info: https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy

One interesting thing with the diaries is that Zina, Lyuda, and Rustem had a partial Mansi>Russian dictionary written by hand in their diaries. But none of them learned to read Mansi trail markers so they just walked past them.
 
Thanks, I know what you mean about the cover, no need for it!

Eichar it is.

I know I'm late here, but I also found the Eichar book very good. Haven't read McCloskey's, but heard him on the Astonishing Legends podcast.

Also, it's interesting reading some updates here... like as far as I knew, the cutting their way out from the inside of the tent was 100% established fact.

It reminds me of being really into dinosaurs as a kid, I knew everything about them. Now when I read about them all the bones have been rearranged, they're called different things, earlier assumptions dismissed etc.

It's the same with Forteana, the still steaming boiled egg on the Mary Celeste / Flannan Isles never happened, nobody disappeared in plain sight walking across a field etc. It's very difficult to keep up.

Would love it if a new updated book in the vein of "The Rough Guide To Unexplained Phenomena" could be published (probably the best Fortean book I've read, but must be 20 years old now)
 
I know I'm late here, but I also found the Eichar book very good. Haven't read McCloskey's, but heard him on the Astonishing Legends podcast.

Also, it's interesting reading some updates here... like as far as I knew, the cutting their way out from the inside of the tent was 100% established fact.

It reminds me of being really into dinosaurs as a kid, I knew everything about them. Now when I read about them all the bones have been rearranged, they're called different things, earlier assumptions dismissed etc.

It's the same with Forteana, the still steaming boiled egg on the Mary Celeste / Flannan Isles never happened, nobody disappeared in plain sight walking across a field etc. It's very difficult to keep up.

Would love it if a new updated book in the vein of "The Rough Guide To Unexplained Phenomena" could be published (probably the best Fortean book I've read, but must be 20 years old now)
There is a second, updated edition of Rough Guide but that was 2007.

I’m nearly finished the Eichar and it’s very interesting apart from the bit where he disses Fortean Times!
 
If the case has come up again does that mean new data?

I am not an experienced outdoorperson, but I have read a bit about the subject.

While the ignorant are at obvious risk, its not unknown for the experienced to get lost and die. (Or panic, though that is mostly folk on their own. Mass panic is a possibility)

(And given that Our Comrades seem to be in different groups...)

A lot of cases seem to be several incidents which on their own would be no big deal, combining to make something more serious.

I suspect that is the case here.

I know how you feel about the Dinosaura, Soul Doubt, but I much prefer these new ones...Who are, bestest of all, still very alive.

(And yesterday, using the windscreen of my car as a slide...)
 
If the case has come up again does that mean new data?

I am not an experienced outdoorperson, but I have read a bit about the subject.

While the ignorant are at obvious risk, its not unknown for the experienced to get lost and die. (Or panic, though that is mostly folk on their own. Mass panic is a possibility)

(And given that Our Comrades seem to be in different groups...)

A lot of cases seem to be several incidents which on their own would be no big deal, combining to make something more serious.

I suspect that is the case here.

I know how you feel about the Dinosaura, Soul Doubt, but I much prefer these new ones...Who are, bestest of all, still very alive.

(And yesterday, using the windscreen of my car as a slide...)
Recently the Russian government decided to do an official re-investigation to finally put an official closure on the case.

Which doesn't seem to have involved new information, but simply re-evaluating what was known to choose what explanation to support.
 
I read Dead Mountain and thought it put things very well.

But in these cases, unless one speaks and reads Russian, of necessity everything is going to have been filtered through at least one other mind before it gets to us, and, since it was a while ago now, more minds have sifted and passed on information. This is a good reminder that it's always best to go back to original sources for factual information.
 
I read Dead Mountain and thought it put things very well.

But in these cases, unless one speaks and reads Russian, of necessity everything is going to have been filtered through at least one other mind before it gets to us, and, since it was a while ago now, more minds have sifted and passed on information. This is a good reminder that it's always best to go back to original sources for factual information.
Yes I've now finsihed it and enjoyed it, a very sad situation. And totally agree with the filter aspect.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it but Josh Gates for his Expedition Unknown did a good two part look at the case.
 
https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks
There's a listing of all the registered outings. Experience varied greatly Zolotaryov had 24 recorded hikes, vs only 5 for Thibeaux.
Thanks for that.
With one exception they all had at least one level III under their belt and that seems a pretty hefty thing to have done. It seems that this journey was a level III training expedition for all of them which is why they were so meticulous with their diaries, photographs and where they were going and what type of environment. This is good because it gives us so much information about what happened immediately before whatever caused the deaths of the participants.
I've done this sort of thing myself, for some long distance walks its just a diary record and pictures shwoing you were there for my Mountian Leader stuff it was a more detailed log with specific requirements eg wild camping for x number of nights, being out x number of times, leading a certaina mount and so on and I guess this is the sort of thing that the Dyatlov group were doing with members being at different points in their journey to gaining certain qualifications.
 
Thanks for that.
With one exception they all had at least one level III under their belt and that seems a pretty hefty thing to have done. It seems that this journey was a level III training expedition for all of them which is why they were so meticulous with their diaries, photographs and where they were going and what type of environment. This is good because it gives us so much information about what happened immediately before whatever caused the deaths of the participants.
I've done this sort of thing myself, for some long distance walks its just a diary record and pictures shwoing you were there for my Mountian Leader stuff it was a more detailed log with specific requirements eg wild camping for x number of nights, being out x number of times, leading a certaina mount and so on and I guess this is the sort of thing that the Dyatlov group were doing with members being at different points in their journey to gaining certain qualifications.
They were basically studying to be certified as "expert" survivalists. They weren't experts yet, but they weren't amateurs.
 
They were basically studying to be certified as "expert" survivalists. They weren't experts yet, but they weren't amateurs.
Definitely, it seems as if their non school lives were taken up by their interest in hiking and the desire to take it further. The level III expedtions are the sort of thing where most people would just go nah, and go back to doing whatever they were doing indoors.
 
Sorry, I don't want to go over old coals but I thought Igor Alekseyevich Dyatlov was experienced and respected? I'm just wondering where this anti-Dyatlov is coming from and where did it arise?

Enola looking at you - help, please.
 
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