Dyatlov Pass Incident

gordonrutter

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Would you have done it with inadequate equipment in freezing conditions though?
I did the climbing without any equipment and if it had not been in the conext of the exercise I owuld not have done that. As for the freezing conditions I did the training for my summer ML in the Welsh mountains in winter!
 

EnolaGaia

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Here's my next installment in response to AlchoPwn ...

... The group was making good time ...
No, they weren't ...

The weather during the first few days - during which time they were approaching the pass along the Auspiya River - was notably warmer than expected. They'd originally planned to ski up the frozen river, but the unexpected temperatures caused the river's frozen surface to be slushy. This required the party to repeatedly stop and clean accumulated frozen slush off their skis, slowing them down. They eventually gave up and switched to skiing alongside the river, which was itself a slower mode of travel than expected.

As of the night before they ascended to the pass they were already running behind schedule - quite possibly by as much as a full day.

This would not have been considered a major concern that early in the trip, insofar as schedules for backcountry trips are realistically kept somewhat flexible.

However, the evidence indicates they lost even more time the next day when they ascended the pass. Kolmogorova's journal from the night before stated the plan was to cross over the pass into the Lozva River watershed beyond (where their bodies were found) and establish their cache there on the other side of the pass before trekking onward toward Mount Ortoten.

One of the most overlooked aspects of this case (IMHO) concerns what happened early on 1 February. The journal entries on the subsequent (fatal?) night indicate they got a late start in ascending the pass. One reason for this late departure - and to my mind a significant mystery in itself - was the fact they built their cache near their previous night's campsite (on the opposite side of the pass from what was planned) before setting out.

This represents a substantial change in plan occurring overnight, or perhaps first thing in the morning. It's not clear how much of their 1 February delay was entirely attributable to building the cache versus debating (arguing?) the change of plans it represented.

Perhaps even more relevant is the notion that a decision changing the cache location might imply they'd changed their planned route - e.g., skipping a dip into the Lozva valley and electing to stay high on the ridge in hopes of making up some of the time they'd already lost. Unless there's some heretofore unreported diary entry illuminating this point I presume we'll never know whether they'd intended to camp atop the pass / ridge or down in the Lozva valley when they set out on 1 February.

In any case, they were pushing their luck (time-wise) on 1 February - even if camping atop the pass / ridge was their intention. The last photos of them atop the pass and digging into deep snow to clear a place for setting up the tent clearly show miserable weather conditions in late afternoon.* The tent site digging photos have long been estimated to have been taken circa 1700 (as the light was fading), and I've never found any cause for questioning those estimates.

* ... And this was before the strong winds and precipitous temperature drop hit that night.

One outcome of losing time again on 1 February was failing to hang the portable stove as they'd done on earlier stops. This failure - on the one evening during that trip when the stove was going to be most relevant - strikes me as a clue to having set up camp in atypical haste and / or recognizing the wind conditions were so challenging that hanging the stove threatened the tent's very stability.

Because we have no (known) evidence of their intentions when setting out on 1 February, we're left to wonder whether their situation on the evening of 1 February reflected (a) failure to travel as far as originally planned (over the pass into the valley beyond) or (b) camping in a newly-intended general location that turned out to be more than they'd bargained for.

In summary ... No, they weren't making good time. Furthermore, the events of 1 February (however they related to plans / intentions) couldn't have left any of the trekkers with the impression things were going well.

This last point was particularly relevant to Dyatlov himself, who wrote in his journal the night before he'd fretted over the sound of howling winds from the pass above and dreaded the idea of being up there rather than down in his 31 January campsite in the Auspiya valley. Given this apprehension through the preceding night, I find it extremely odd he would have set out the following day with the intention of spending the next night up at the very place he'd dreaded being stuck in only hours before.
 

Krepostnoi

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I have a new theory that pretty much ticks all the boxes on the Dyatlov Pass Incident. My time away has not been wasted. The theory relies on no flying radioactive yetis, katabatic wind,or Soviet death squads but on the evidence that is known about the case.

My first clue was that every which-way you turn the information in the case, it seemed as if the evidence had no consistency, as if there was something fake going on. Not a cover up per se, but something that seemed to contradict the evidence at every turn.

It dawned on me that what I was looking at is not an altogether spontaneous chain of events, there is an element of simulation about it. But how to account for it?

Then I saw the following like in the Wikipedia entry that clued me in...

"Each member of the group, which consisted of eight men and two women, were experienced Grade II-hikers with ski tour experience, and would be receiving Grade III certification upon their return."
-Eichar, Donnie (2013). Dead Mountain: The Untold True Story of the Dyatlov Pass Incident. San Francisco: Chronicle Books. ISBN 978-1-4521-2956-3. page 32.

What I was looking at was evidence of a training exercise gone wrong.

The USSR in the late 1950s was mending itself and had a new sense of its own purpose under Krushchev, but was in many ways a very dangerous and tough place to live. Russians have also never been overly safety conscious, and often the simplest tasks have an historical butchers bill in human lives that would make other European nations blanch. Training expeditions undertaken by organizations such as the military and the young pioneers were seen as a way of proving the worth of the citizens and constituted a measure of elitism in a society that was not supposed to recognise or laud the individual, thus personal competence was subordinated to group competence. This was the spirit, spoken or not, behind the Dyatlov Expedition.

So what happened at Dyatlov Pass? Let me offer you the following explanation...

The group was making good time and Igor Dyatlov, an experienced hiker was adequately impressed by them, and a number of the hikers had expressed an interest in undertaking fresh challenges in their training. Dyatlov, a young man of 23 and an experienced hiker with high certification is prone to agree with this request, and so he offers them some extra training. remember that young men sometimes take silly risks without quite meaning to. So he asks everyone if they would like to do an avalanche drill at some stage in the next couple of days, and they all enthusiastically agree, eager to test their skills and what they have learned.

So when they reach the pass, Dyatlov gets them to pitch camp in an area under absolutely no risk of avalance, but still on a slope. The weather seems clear, and Dyatlov has prepared the group over the days as to what to expect. He waits for them to start getting settled in the tent, but before they have the stove installed, then he starts the avalanche drill, which starts with everyone having to evacuate the tent in under 10 seconds. This is achieved well, as the group cut their way out. Dyatlov is not concerned about the damage as they have ample material to stitch the tent back up again, and that will form the last exercise. Note that this accounts for the state of undress of the group, as they had to abandon what they were doing and face the next challenge with what they were wearing. Dyatlov leaves a lantern to mark the position of the tent so they can hopefully find it the next day, even in the unlikely event that bad weather sets in and they face a fog or snow.

Next Dyatlov asks them each separately what they do when they are out of the tent and they see an avalanche bearing down on them. They are all prepared for the question, and answer that they run laterally away from the path of the avalance. Rather than making them do this, Dyatlov then says that they were all correct and so they don't have to physically do this.

The next exercise is that of winter survival. Dyatlov poses the problem "It is dark and the tent is buried under snow. You will have a better chance of recovering your supplies with the morning light, but for now you need to find shelter." It is generally agreed that the group will find better shelter and fuel for a fire below the tree line, but after that, the group splits as to how to proceed next. The main group is convinced that starting a bonfire will solve their group survival needs best, but 4 members are of the opinion that they would be better served by digging an ice cave to shelter in, using their combined body heat to stay warm with the snow insulating them (yes, this is known to work and is the main principle behind the success of igloos).

Then everything goes to hell in a hurry. The group splits into two. What Dyatlov hasn't quite anticipated is the weather. It doesn't snow, but the clear skies presage a viciously cold night, far worse than he ever suspected. Dyatlov has seriously miscalculated the risk. The 6 who engage in making the bonfire quickly find themselves in serious trouble as the temperature plummets. Try as they might to get warm, they just can't as the wind chill rips their body heat away. Some of them think better of their choice and try to get to the other group or to the ravine where they can make their own snow cave, but everyone dies.

The group who were digging the snow cave have also made a serious mistake. While the snow bank they are digging into would be safe enough for a single person to dig a personal shelter, they hoped to pool their labor, cooperatively, in good Soviet fashion, so that the whole group would benefit. What they don't realize is that the ice and snow above them is very unstable, and while 4 small caves might have kept each of them alive as individuals, when they group together to make a much bigger group cave, they undermine the structure and they wind up dead and buried under tons of ice and snow with cracked ribs and skulls, because the tons ice and snow acts just like tons of rock.

Now everyone is dead. Scavengers moving thru the area have a gobble at what exposed flesh they can find.

2 weeks later investigators arrive on the scene and can't figure out what happened. Having gathered the evidence, nothing makes sense. Every logical path towards explaining what happened leads to absurd conclusions. The whole thing becomes a legend.
Good to see you back, @AlchoPwn . It's an interesting theory, and seems to tie together some of the looser ends. That said, I'm going to raise an objection: the training scenario you outline doesn't ring true for me from what I know of Russian approaches to team activities, as it suggests too much of a horizontal power distribution. My experience of Russian instruction has been: "I am the instructor, you are the instructee. Listen to me and do what I say" as opposed to "Ok, what would you do in this situation? All right, let's give that a try and see what happens." Actually, much of my instruction in younger years followed the same pattern, and that was in the UK. It is only relatively recently that the learner has been recognised as an active participant in the learning process, and that reconceptualisation hasn't necessarily percolated through into Russia even now, let alone sixty years ago.

What's more, the idea that one group might embark on separate solutions also seems out-of-kilter: at the risk of sweeping generalisations, Russians tend to act more collectively than Westerners might. So, even if there was disagreement about the optimal course of action, I'd argue the vast majority of groups would somehow eventually settle on one (most likely by dint of the group leader dictating this to them), and they would all pursue that. Even without the benefit of an education based on horror films, they would not readily have split the group, especially as part of a training exercise.

If these had been Western European or North American hikers, and/or of a later vintage, I probably would have bought your version of events. As it is, I confess I am not yet convinced.
 

Yithian

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Interesting point, but I'm not going to rule it out on those grounds.

I'd first want to know about the nature of the training Igor Dyatlov typically conducted, and whether he was typical or atypical.

I was looking at some military training instructions from the British Army in 1949 just a couple of days ago and I was surprised by how forward-thinking they were in terms of active participation and the amount of flexibility granted to the instructor.

Of course, if you say that the Russians are less culturally inclined towards the experimental and interpersonally responsive in this area, I believe you, but I'd want to assure myself that Dyatlov wasn't an outlier in this respect.
 

RaM

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There was a film about it on the Horror ch in the last few days, they sort of stick to the story
then go off into a cave full of aliens with a attitude problem, may be on catch up.
 

Mythopoeika

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There was a film about it on the Horror ch in the last few days, they sort of stick to the story
then go off into a cave full of aliens with a attitude problem, may be on catch up.
That film is about a modern-day expedition that goes off to investigate the area where the incident occurred.
 

AlchoPwn

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Good to see you back, @AlchoPwn . It's an interesting theory, and seems to tie together some of the looser ends. That said, I'm going to raise an objection: the training scenario you outline doesn't ring true for me from what I know of Russian approaches to team activities, as it suggests too much of a horizontal power distribution. My experience of Russian instruction has been: "I am the instructor, you are the instructee. Listen to me and do what I say" as opposed to "Ok, what would you do in this situation? All right, let's give that a try and see what happens." Actually, much of my instruction in younger years followed the same pattern, and that was in the UK. It is only relatively recently that the learner has been recognised as an active participant in the learning process, and that reconceptualisation hasn't necessarily percolated through into Russia even now, let alone sixty years ago.
Having now read the diaries recovered from the incident, I get the distinct impression that this was a group of young people who were enjoying each others' company, and were resentful of arbitrary authority. For example, when Yuri Krivo is arrested for singing in Serov, you get the impression that the author (who I assume is Dyatlov) is more than a little annoyed at the police for their "hospitality". I don't think Dyatlov was a power mad instructor type normal of a 30+ person who is doing the work for a living and doesn't want any trouble from "annoying youngsters who know very little". I think Dyatlov was normal 23 year old uni student with good hiking certification who wanted to go hiking with his friends. The diaries certainly seem to bear this out.

Here's my next installment in response to AlchoPwn ...
No, they weren't (making good time)
As to Enola Gaia's post, I would love to find out where you got those passages that you refer to EG, where people are dreading the climb up the pass. The best resource I could find for the diaries is the one in the menu in this link, and it doesn't mention the passages you mention. There is an extensive list of recovered diaries and having read them all now I couldn't find it. If you could provide a link to your source I would certainly appreciate it.
 

EnolaGaia

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Both items I cited came from 31 January entries in Dyatlov's and Kolmogorova's diaries. The sources were English transcriptions from a Russian site I visited on a deep dive years ago. I don't know if those files survived the fire that destroyed my residence some years ago.
 

brownmane

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In response to the social dynamics of the group, I did read of a question of whether the group acted communally with their decisions or if there was a possible rift developed to cause the seemingly different responses to them leaving the tent. The facts that Zolotaryov was quite a bit older than the group, was not well known by most of the group members (iirc) and had military training background had some people speculating whether he and Dyatlov may have not agreed on how things should be handled.

This is possible, despite a culture of working together communally.

Unfortunately I don't remember if it is this thread directly, or other articles I read. This thread alone has several years worth of discussion and information, which took me 2-3 weeks to read from the beginning. @EnolaGaia is one of many who have contributed the links and discussions regarding Dyatlov Pass.
 

AlchoPwn

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Both items I cited came from 31 January entries in Dyatlov's and Kolmogorova's diaries. The sources were English transcriptions from a Russian site I visited on a deep dive years ago. I don't know if those files survived the fire that destroyed my residence some years ago.
So you don't have the actual docs? Because I do. There was no "Dyatlov diary", there was a group diary that was likely filled in by Dyatlov:

"31 January 59
Today the weather is a bit worse wind (west), snow (probably from the pines) because the sky is perfectly clear.
Started relatively early (around 10am). Took the same Mansi trail. Till now we walk along a Mansi trail, which was crossed by a deer hunter not long ago. Yesterday we apparently came across his resting stop. Deer didn't go much further. The hunter didn't follow the beaten trail and we are now in his steps. Today was surprisingly good accommodations for the tent, air is warm and dry, despite the low temperature of -18C to -24C. Walking is especially hard today. We can't see the trail and sometimes we have to advance gropingly. All we can do is 1.52 km (1 mile) per hour.
We are forced to find new methods of clearing the path for the skis. The first member leaves his backpack on the ground and walks forward, then returns and rests for 10-15 minutes with the group. Thus we have a non-stop paving of the trail. It is especially hard for the second to move along the new trail with full gear on the back. We gradually leave the Auspiya valley, the rise is continuous, but quite smooth. Fir trees are replaced by wispy birch-wood. We came out of the tree line. Wind is western, warm, penetrating. The speed of the wind is similar to the air draft created by a taking off airplane. Firn, open spaces. I can't even start thinking of setting up a storage. It's close to 4. We have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We are going south in Auspiya river valley. This apparently is the place covered with the deepest snow. Wind is not strong, snow cover is 1,22 m. Tired and exhausted we started the preparations for the night. Not enough firewood. Frail damp firs. We started fire with logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.
Dyatlov (last record in the diary)"

As for Kolmogorova's Diary, the last entry isn't on 31st

"30.1.59 We go on Auspiya
cold (ayserm). Mansi trail ended. Pine forest. There was sun in the morning, now is cold (ayserm). All day long we walked along Auspiya. Will spend the night on a Mansi trail. Kolya didn't get to be a watchman so me and Rustik will stay on duty today. Burned mittens and Yurkin's second quilted jacket. He cursed a lot. Today, probably, we will build a storage.
(note: blank turn, on the left page, a mirrored impression of the previous page)
(note: last turn - left page is blank)
(note: on the right one):

The brighter, the greater diaphragm number, if the diaphragm is lower, there will be less light on the film, the shutter speed is longer. Aperture - closed
(note: vertical arrows pointing up below each of the last two words)
(note: on the last bookend, left page):"


Now I admit that there is no mention of training, but there is also no mention of "dreading the Pass".
 

AlchoPwn

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Is it really feasible that they would damage by cutting their tent then leave it half-clothed on a bitterly cold night for a mere exercise?
Firstly, the tent was old, and had been cobbled together from two tents. It has been said that many of the "cuts" may in fact have been simply due to it being in poor repair. This was not some swish camping store bought equipment. This was shoddy Soviet era gear, it looks army surplus, that was likely repaired on the fly and not often enough.

Next, in terms of an exercise being valid, allow me to explain. When an avalance hits, the first thing you need to do is get moving away from the path of it. If the fastest way means cutting your way out of your tent, you do that. You then run lateral to the path of the avalanche. Once the avalanche has passed, you move in and look for survivors and recover what gear you can salvage. The key to survival after that is managing your exposure to the elements. The best answer is to dig yourself a snow cave, tho of the temperature is less threatening, starting a fire that can be used to attract attention , warm you etc is also valid. The fact is that an avalance is survivable if you follow these procedures. Then you need to worry about other matters such as food and water supplies, but first you have to survive the night. Now to be a properly certified hiker, able to lead groups into the wilds of the USSR you had to know these things, and in fact the people who survived the gulags were often dumped on a railway siding and expected to survive by digging ice caves. In some circumstances an ice cave is preferable to a tent.

It seems a bit unlikely.
A bit unlikely? Well is a UFO intervention more likely? Or a radioactive yeti? The most credible theories put forwards so far before this one have been the katabatic wind, and the avalanche theory. There is no evidence from the weather reports at the time to confirm a katabatic wind, and the avalanche theory fails because if you are scared of an avalanche you don't wander down a slope, plus they had chosen their campsite well and there was no danger of an avalanche. So how do you get behavior consistent with avalanche avoidance, such as tent cutting and being underdressed, but with crucial and obvious mistakes that no experienced hiker would make like walking down a slope? An avalanche that isn't an avalanche is a training drill.

They would've been well aware how cold it was.
The thing about temperatures is that they change, sometimes very quickly and unpredictably. Even experienced outdoorsfolk get caught out sometimes. So I put it to you... They know that their tent and their clothes are up the slope, and there is a lamp they left to help them find the tent in the dark if necessary. Why didn't they go back to the tent and start stitching it?

If escaping the [imaginary] avalanche means you freeze to death outside pretty quickly it's not much of a survival strategy.
The use of an ice cave is a very valid survival strategy that has saved a great many lives over a very long period of time. For example, igloos have kept arctic peoples alive for thousands of years, and they are just a sophisticated form of ice cave. A bonfire is less effective, but if the night isn't too cold it can work. If you are a bit more au fait with the gulag period, it might not surprise you to learn that many forced laborers who were dumped on a railway siding and expected to lay railway tracks during the Stalin Era lived exclusively in ice caves, and some of them even managed to survive years that way. That surprised me.
 

henry

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what i like about this general theory, is the elegant way it deals with a whole load of problems that are otherwise tricky to resolve ... it may not deal with them all, but it has the elegance i normally associate with something being "true"

what of the guy who turned back, i wonder why this wasnt advanced as a useful layer of meaning previously, by him or another, or maybe it was ?
 
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Denion

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Well, I admit it's a funny idea. They died escaping an avalanche they imagined for the sake of an escape exercise.

But should this be taken seriously, this could be the dumbest proposition I have ever read. It's even dumber than yeti which is outrageous.

Especially after their challenging and taxing ascent in a blizzard that very same afternoon, especially once you read their faux evening journal that clearly hints at going to bed.

No, cutting the tent and scurrying into the night unshod and underdressed is not a meaningful and purposeful exercise. It makes zero sense all throughout. Because it equals acting dumb. If you wanna get ready for something, you don't practice acting stupid and suicidal. These were smart people. Kolevatov was a nuke. Nukes are known to be some of the smartest and most intelligent people around.

Just no. Turn the page.
 

Yithian

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But should this be taken seriously, this could be the dumbest proposition I have ever read.
Is this was passes for polite disagreement in your neck o' the woods?

For what it's worth, I don't think the theory likely, but I'm glad to see some original thinking that doesn't require supernatural forces and attempts to account for a lot of the confusing mass of evidence we have.

If you have a counter suggestion that does something similar, we'll politely read and comment on it.
 

feinman

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I don't think we will ever know what happened to those folks. As far as lights in the sky terrifying people, if such occurred at Dyatlov, I would lean this way:

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SBS1972...txt-txIN-nuclear+strange+flying+object-------
San Bernardino Sun, 1 July 1972
Page 21
Text

Why may this text contain mistakes?
Correct this text
1
c
Voice of the People
UFOJs Return - Swooping and Swishing .
Because so many OTHER people saw this strange "thing" late Saturday night and early Sunday June 13, this small mention of it in The Sun puzzles me greatly. George Airmen Sight a Bright Orange Object GEORGE AFB Two airmen verified each otehr's report yesterday of seeing a "bright orange object" about 1 a.m. that seemed to be 375 feet in diameter as it sank behind a building southwest of their security-police beat at this base. The airmen, Gary Corley and Randolph Wogoman, said the L'FOf (unidentified flying object) sighting apparently went unobserved by anyone eise. They reported it to the air police, and to the Victorville Sheriff's Office and Adelanto Police Department. No evidence was fonnd of the object having landed, it was reported by the base information office. Our party of three stopped at the Scene of a minor accident around 11:30 p.m., Sunday, to find approximately 30 other people far more interested in watching this strange, circular, "whatever-it-was" moving quickly about In the sky above us, changing from bluish-white in color, at higher altitude, then to a weird orange-yellow as it, came down into the smog-filled lower atmosphere. One man in this mixed group of spectators told us that he had been tolde several times, by Air Force personnel, that the "thing" he had seen before was a highly-secret "craft" and he should not talk it over with others who have also seen it. Three U.S. airmen, in uniform, who claimed to be from Air Base in Nevada, (on official leave, we supposed) said they would surely know about, such craft, even though they might be under orders to remain silent about it, but they were as mystified as the rest of us. The thing that sickens me about this entire deal is the harm I saw in what it had done to one family on the preceding Saturday night. (The family of four whose pickup camper and trailer had run off of the dirt road where the 30 or more of us were assembled.) I talked with the two almost-hysterical girls, one 9, the other 11, and learned that the "thing" had hovered around their family's rather isolated campsite the night before for more than three hours, hurting their ears with its strange whirring sound each time it. ascended from "almost on top of us" as "a big round orange-colored thing" which became, a second later, "just a big bright-blue dot high in the sky." The still-frightened girls told me their story between the several "dtps" this "craft" made over us while several strong men moved boulders and pushed the camper and trailer out of the ditch. Each time the "thing" seemed to move in on us, as though exploring the various automobile lights and flashlights trained on the repair job, the two little girls would cover their ears and throw themselves at their mother's feet, sobbing, while I tried to assure both the mother and the girls that there was bound to be a logical explanation
Because so many OTHER people saw this strange "thing" late Saturday night and early Sunday June 13, this small mention of it in The Sun puzzles me greatly. George Airmen Sight a Bright Orange Object GEORGE AFB Two airmen verified each otehr's report yesterday of seeing a "bright orange object" about 1 a.m. that seemed to be 375 feet in diameter as it sank behind a building southwest of their security-police beat at this base. The airmen, Gary Corley and Randolph Wogoman, said the L'FOf (unidentified flying object) sighting apparently went unobserved by anyone eise. They reported it to the air police, and to the Victorville Sheriff's Office and Adelanto Police Department. No evidence was fonnd of the object having landed, it was reported by the base information office.
 
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EnolaGaia

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I don't think we will ever know what happened to those folks. As far as lights in the sky terrifying people, if such occurred at Dyatlov, I would lean this way:
So WTF does this 1972 California story have to do with the 1959 Dyatlov Pass incident?
 

feinman

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So WTF does this 1972 California story have to do with the 1959 Dyatlov Pass incident?
So, lights were supposedly seen in the sky near the party; they have been interpreted as rocket tests or secret weapons tests by others. So, "lights". The tent was supposedly cut from the inside --a noisy intrusive glowing object might cause them to cut a hole to see what the heck was going on, etc. That's "WTF". :)
Time difference: so what? Could have happened more than once, in time, right? Why the need to curse?
 

EnolaGaia

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We've been through the UFO angle before (e.g., in 2014) - to the extent of documenting what's known about a single civilian report from the night of 1 February, the lights reported by the Shumkov group on Chistop (2 February), lead investigator Ivanov's dismissal of any UFO involvement other than military / space program operations, and the possibility the Shumkov sighting represented a known rocket launch sometime on 2 February from Kasputin Yar. There's also a chance the 2 February launch occurred during the very early morning hours of 2 February (i.e., the commonly presumed fatal night), but this requires dropping the official Shumkov party time claims in favor of Ivanov's notes (which can be interpreted as stating the Shumkov witnesses actually saw the lights off toward Mount Ortoten on the night of 1 February).

There's also the more divergent interpretation that the 2 February launch happened during the evening of 2 - 3 February (as the Shumkov party originally implied), and it spooked a Dyatlov party that was still stuck (snowed in?) in the campsite they'd established the previous day.
 

feinman

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We've been through the UFO angle before (e.g., in 2014) - to the extent of documenting what's known about a single civilian report from the night of 1 February, the lights reported by the Shumkov group on Chistop (2 February), lead investigator Ivanov's dismissal of any UFO involvement other than military / space program operations, and the possibility the Shumkov sighting represented a known rocket launch sometime on 2 February from Kasputin Yar. There's also a chance the 2 February launch occurred during the very early morning hours of 2 February (i.e., the commonly presumed fatal night), but this requires dropping the official Shumkov party time claims in favor of Ivanov's notes (which can be interpreted as stating the Shumkov witnesses actually saw the lights off toward Mount Ortoten on the night of 1 February).

There's also the more divergent interpretation that the 2 February launch happened during the evening of 2 - 3 February (as the Shumkov party originally implied), and it spooked a Dyatlov party that was still stuck (snowed in?) in the campsite they'd established the previous day.
Thanks for the info; that would be a good explanation for the lights.
 

feinman

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I don't think we will ever know what happened to those folks. As far as lights in the sky terrifying people, if such occurred at Dyatlov, I would lean this way:

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SBS1972...txt-txIN-nuclear+strange+flying+object-------
San Bernardino Sun, 1 July 1972
Page 21
Text

Why may this text contain mistakes?
Correct this text
1
c
Voice of the People
UFOJs Return - Swooping and Swishing .
Because so many OTHER people saw this strange "thing" late Saturday night and early Sunday June 13, this small mention of it in The Sun puzzles me greatly. George Airmen Sight a Bright Orange Object GEORGE AFB Two airmen verified each otehr's report yesterday of seeing a "bright orange object" about 1 a.m. that seemed to be 375 feet in diameter as it sank behind a building southwest of their security-police beat at this base. The airmen, Gary Corley and Randolph Wogoman, said the L'FOf (unidentified flying object) sighting apparently went unobserved by anyone eise. They reported it to the air police, and to the Victorville Sheriff's Office and Adelanto Police Department. No evidence was fonnd of the object having landed, it was reported by the base information office. Our party of three stopped at the Scene of a minor accident around 11:30 p.m., Sunday, to find approximately 30 other people far more interested in watching this strange, circular, "whatever-it-was" moving quickly about In the sky above us, changing from bluish-white in color, at higher altitude, then to a weird orange-yellow as it, came down into the smog-filled lower atmosphere. One man in this mixed group of spectators told us that he had been tolde several times, by Air Force personnel, that the "thing" he had seen before was a highly-secret "craft" and he should not talk it over with others who have also seen it. Three U.S. airmen, in uniform, who claimed to be from Air Base in Nevada, (on official leave, we supposed) said they would surely know about, such craft, even though they might be under orders to remain silent about it, but they were as mystified as the rest of us. The thing that sickens me about this entire deal is the harm I saw in what it had done to one family on the preceding Saturday night. (The family of four whose pickup camper and trailer had run off of the dirt road where the 30 or more of us were assembled.) I talked with the two almost-hysterical girls, one 9, the other 11, and learned that the "thing" had hovered around their family's rather isolated campsite the night before for more than three hours, hurting their ears with its strange whirring sound each time it. ascended from "almost on top of us" as "a big round orange-colored thing" which became, a second later, "just a big bright-blue dot high in the sky." The still-frightened girls told me their story between the several "dtps" this "craft" made over us while several strong men moved boulders and pushed the camper and trailer out of the ditch. Each time the "thing" seemed to move in on us, as though exploring the various automobile lights and flashlights trained on the repair job, the two little girls would cover their ears and throw themselves at their mother's feet, sobbing, while I tried to assure both the mother and the girls that there was bound to be a logical explanation
Because so many OTHER people saw this strange "thing" late Saturday night and early Sunday June 13, this small mention of it in The Sun puzzles me greatly. George Airmen Sight a Bright Orange Object GEORGE AFB Two airmen verified each otehr's report yesterday of seeing a "bright orange object" about 1 a.m. that seemed to be 375 feet in diameter as it sank behind a building southwest of their security-police beat at this base. The airmen, Gary Corley and Randolph Wogoman, said the L'FOf (unidentified flying object) sighting apparently went unobserved by anyone eise. They reported it to the air police, and to the Victorville Sheriff's Office and Adelanto Police Department. No evidence was fonnd of the object having landed, it was reported by the base information office.
Sorry EnolaGaia. That little spoiler alert is evidence of poor moderation --and cognition.
 

EnolaGaia

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Sorry, feinman. Lobbing an irrelevant incident report without any connection to this thread's stated topic and without any explanation of its relevance / possible connection is evidence of poor posting practice -- and situation awareness.
 

feinman

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Sorry, feinman. Lobbing an irrelevant incident report without any connection to this thread's stated topic and without any explanation of its relevance / possible connection is evidence of poor posting practice -- and situation awareness.
I disagree. There are all kinds of wild theories about what happened --from secret weapons tests to katabatic winds and yetis. Sorry, when you stigmatize folks with little labels..
 

Denion

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Is this was passes for polite disagreement in your neck o' the woods?
Definitely. And not only that. If I conjure a dumb idea full of loopholes and shortcomings myself and I actually end up pushing it rather vehemently, literally blind and deaf to any and every objection, I consider it intellectually polite and honest for anyone to tap me on the shoulder and say "hey, zoom out, this is just plain dumb".

It will save me some time at the very least, and I appreciate that.

While I understand where you're coming from, I didn't chew the poster out nor did I slate him for thinking as such. I just refused his explanation as a bunch of glaring nonsense right on par with yeti and aliens.

You're free to appreciate the effort behind it, but to my mind, once shared, ideas are and should be non-personal, and also treated as such.
 

Yithian

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'Dumb' does not mean wrong, untrue, incorrect, inadequate or inaccurate. It means the idea was stupid: the product of stupid thought or a lack of thought.

This is not a seminar, but neither is it a playground.

Try saying that your boss's idea is 'dumb' instead of 'wrong'. The ensuing period of job-hunting will provide adequate opportunity to learn the distinction.
 

Denion

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'Dumb' does not mean wrong, untrue, incorrect, inadequate or inaccurate. It means the idea was stupid: the product of stupid thought or a lack of thought.
And the product of stupid thought or a lack of thought are usually wrong, untrue, incorrect, inadequate or inaccurate ideas and statements.

There is really no conflict there. Even the smartest people come up with dumb ideas, although when you label their ideas as such, they can usually see it and focus on why you consider it dumb instead of throwing a tantrum over using the word 'dumb'.

Try saying that your boss's idea is 'dumb' instead of 'wrong'. The ensuing period of job-hunting will provide adequate opportunity to learn the distinction.
Oh I did, even on repeat, and now I'm the boss. Hope it helps. Because this is it for this meta debate on my part.
 

Yithian

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Tantrum?

Moderators intervene to encourage good discussion, foster engagement and ensure that participants are allowed to make their points without being insulted.

As the boss, I'm sure you don't like having your bad manners corrected in public for the good of the discussion, but that is what will happen here. If our advice meets with a hostile response, we have the power to remove you from the discussion. Nobody wants this.

There is no more to say.
 

gordonrutter

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The thing to remember this is a forum for debate and language which stifles debate should not be used. Can we keep the discussion to Dyatlov and if you don’t like someone’s idea then provide your reasoned argument as to why the idea is lacking.
 
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