Dyatlov Pass Incident

Human_84

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#61
Why does no-one start from the top? From the very beginning... The tent.

THE TENT:
Why does a ripped tent draw the conclusion that the zipper wasn't fast enough? If this were the case and the tent was ripped open because the 2-second zipper was too time consuming, who really has an unsheathed knife at their bedside and (in a panic situation) makes a split second decision to reach for the knife rather than the zipper? They then start hacking away at the tent (destroying their main survival lifeline) just to exit for a breath of fresh air???! Must have been one seriously repulsive fart.

It's tough to believe. Almost as extreme as breaking the window out of your car instead of reaching for the door handle. It's not something an ordinary person would do, regardless of the situation. Eerie and captivating--which makes for a good story, yes, but it's not a realistic conclusion that the tent was ripped open because their situation was so incredibly dire.

2 additional points:
  • [1] Why did the investigators believe the tent was ripped open from the INSIDE? Can you really tell (just from the tear pattern on the fabric)?

    [2] There is no mention of the zipper, or whether the zipper was found closed or open. Knowing the state of the zipper is an enormous clue that we haven't been given.


THE TEAM LEFT WITHOUT PROPER CLOTHING:
Probably the 2nd most intriguing aspect of the Dyaltov Pass Incident is that the team left the tent wearing very little clothing. Perhaps the moon and stars were incredible, and it was an great night (unseasonably balmy) for a twilight stroll? (kidding) But they could have fled the tent in the daytime (in the hours before sundown or early morning).

In short, fleeing the tent, if that's what happened, didn't need to happen while they were startled awake in the middle of the night (and to revisit my earlier point, it didn't necessarily happen by ripping open the tent. They could have used the zipper, and the tent was damaged for another reason altogether).

If the clothing had become wet, the team were smart enough to shed the wet clothing and build a fire away from the wind-torn the hill, down inside the cover of trees (also for kindling purposes). Possibly later, it was decided that the clothing could be dried out near the fire (which they planned on increasing in size) and so they headed back for the rest of the wet clothes.

Strangely though, the final 4 who died in a "4 meter ravine" were very well dressed. This is seldom mentioned, but certainly proven in at least 1 photo.

Why? Did they hang back at the tent to dress properly, or did they typically sleep with most of their clothes while the others hadn't?

In any case, we can conclude that the abundance of clothing worn by these 4 people did NOT primarily come from borrowing clothing from the deceased. They were well dressed from the beginning of the incident. They might have been separate from the rest of the group during the whole thing, only stopping at the campfire location to scavenge a few additional clothing items.



DEATHS OF THE LAST 4, IN THE RAVINE:
With all the snowpack for padding, they couldn't have sustained their injuries only from the short fall. Even if it were possible, how could they all have fallen simultaneously? Nearly impossible. Much like the tent zipper, this is another seriously doubtful item that is rarely questioned. The short fall could not have caused their injuries.

The lady with a missing tongue was found (according to one report) with a stomach full of blood, meaning her tongue was removed while she was alive, ruling out scavenging animals (if this report is genuine).

They were found only 75 meters from the campfire, meaning their journey was extremely short-lived after picking up clothing from the 2 deceased near the fire. If they were well-dressed and had eaten within 8 hours (according to autopsy reports), what was their main complex?

We'll need to take ALL the tiny details into account to have ANY chance at solving this one. Overlook nothing. The tent zipper, the 4 meter ravine deaths, and plenty more items that I didn't even mention.
 

Cochise

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#62
kamalktk said:
If you look at the references for the page, all references that are in russian are marked as "unreliable", except a reference that is an internet forum.
That is the point that concerns me. But as I've said, its only a doubt, I'm not asserting it is a fake.
 

kamalktk

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#63
Cochise said:
kamalktk said:
If you look at the references for the page, all references that are in russian are marked as "unreliable", except a reference that is an internet forum.
That is the point that concerns me. But as I've said, its only a doubt, I'm not asserting it is a fake.
Since every printed Russian language source is marked "unreliable", it seems this has more to do with wikipedia's editorial issues than anything else. The sources referenced are available via internet, allowing anyone who speaks russian to read for themselves. Though for thoroughness, you'd want to find copies of the actual books, printed before your 1996 date.
 

Human_84

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#64
I've got a contact who used to do Russian translations for me, but he is a pretty distant contact who I'm never in touch with. It would be like calling up a second-cousin to borrow money, but I could ask him to translate something if we have a specific block of text. It would be better to have a translator as part of the forum with an actual interest in this, though..
 

EnolaGaia

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#65
The tent was a do-it-yourself affair of canvas. To judge from the photos, it didn't have a zippered entrance.
 

Urvogel

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#66
One thing that's always puzzled me...doesn't the whole 'they had tanned skin' come from the testimony of someone who was 12 at the time and saw them at the funeral?

Firstly, would a 12 year old be a reliable witness? Was he familiar enough with the appearance of corpses to know if they were actually tanned or if it was a result of decomposition/embalming? Is his memory reliable after all this time?

Secondly, wouldn't there be other witnesses to back up his story? Morticians, undertakers, family, other people at the funeral. Why is it only him?

Has there been anymore evidence to the tanned skin beyond one person's testimony?
 
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#67
Urvogel said:
One thing that's always puzzled me...doesn't the whole 'they had tanned skin' come from the testimony of someone who was 12 at the time and saw them at the funeral?...
If correctly attributed some of the more gruesome photographs available on the web suggest that it would be very difficult to make a judgement about skin colour beyond the fact that they weren't exactly in the pink.
 

kamalktk

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#68
Urvogel said:
One thing that's always puzzled me...doesn't the whole 'they had tanned skin' come from the testimony of someone who was 12 at the time and saw them at the funeral?

Firstly, would a 12 year old be a reliable witness? Was he familiar enough with the appearance of corpses to know if they were actually tanned or if it was a result of decomposition/embalming? Is his memory reliable after all this time?

Secondly, wouldn't there be other witnesses to back up his story? Morticians, undertakers, family, other people at the funeral. Why is it only him?

Has there been anymore evidence to the tanned skin beyond one person's testimony?
Well, there's also tanned from a day at the beach versus tanned ala the leather production process. A 12 year old boy in a remote region might be familiar with the latter, as tanning leather would be a reasonable activity in such a place.
 

Cochise

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#69
EnolaGaia said:
I don't see why the story should be considered suspicious simply because it didn't become a widespread staple of Forteana of the period.
That wasn't quite what I was suggesting. It's more that an event with these elements, especially the potential UFO or Russian secret weapon angles, well, you would expect it to be exploited and publicised more than it is. I chose the date of 1996 arbitrarily, because its a significant date to me, and I'm sure I never heard of this before then.

To put it another way - does anyone know when this was first heard of in the West? I'm not dissing Russian sources, but it is difficult for us to verify them - how could you or I tell if, for example a Russian coroner's report was genuine?

Has anyone checked with say the Russian embassy? I remember years ago (during the cold war) needing some details of their WW2 tanks for a project - I wrote them a letter asking if they could suggest some sources (and explaining why I wanted the data) and they gave me specific and very helpful answers. (Ballistic performance of the T34's 76.2 mm gun for example - they said sorry they couldn't give me details of the later 85mm gun because it was still in service!)

The discussion on Wikipedia at the very minimum suggests I am not alone in thinking this _might_ be a recent invention rather than a genuine event.
 
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#70
Some time back I pointed out that every single source I could find on the internet at the time (02-03-2008) linked back to the same Moscow Times newspaper article* - this included the more often referenced St Petersburg Times article, which is word for word the same as the former. I couldn't find a single reference anywhere that was independant of this. I also noted that, at the time, the Wiki page was up for deletion. (Is there any way of retrieving an old Wiki page, I wonder? I've tried deciphering the relevent revision history but can't find an obvious indication.)

kamalktk said:
...If you look at the references for the page, all references that are in russian are marked as "unreliable", except a reference that is an internet forum.
Yes, it still looks to me that all references which predate the February 2008 Moscow Times article are either not specifically about the Dyatlov incident or, if they are, are marked as unreliable.

However, I'm now kind of drawn to the idea - which has already been suggested - that this is all a product of the way that information from the former Soviet Union filters through into the public domain. This would not have been the type of story that the Soviet authorities of the time would have wanted doing the rounds; if it had been about martyrdom in the name of scientific progress, then maybe - but this smacks more of tragic disaster.

Having said that, when the provenance of a story does seem odd - as in the online appearance lagging decades behind it's supposed genesis (the original Wiki entry appears to date from 2006) - it would be silly not to be at least a little circumspect.

* The original 04/02/2008 link has been superceded by a more recent reissue of the article (27/02/2013) - however, as the first paragraph makes clear, the article is from February 2008. If you don't want to take my word for the precise date of the 4th of February, there are references to that date elsewhere on the net - for instance here, here and here. (You might have to hunt around a bit - but it's in there.)
 

emina

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#71
I speak Russian, although far from perfectly, and I've just given the Russian Wikipedia article a (very) quick glance. The coroners reports from the incident are actually referenced in the bibliography.

All the references are in an on-line database, along with witness statements diaries, scans etc., which you can check here:

https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/ ... kolevatova

I will stress though, it's an enthusiast's site, not an official site.

And, as for the Russian links being labelled 'unreliable', that would seem to be an issue with the policy foreign language links in Wikipedia.
 

Cherrybomb

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#72
Just my two cents - Could the tent have been torn open by an animal, or they heard a bear or wolf or some such thing and thats why they escaped so quickly and ran for it with little clothing? Just an idea....
 

EnolaGaia

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#73
The tears in the tent were relatively regular, and were concluded to be cuts done from within. It's not clear why the searchers / investigators were so confident that all the tears were cuts and all were the result of cutting from inside the tent. The searchers / investigators reported no signs indicating animals or humans other than the 9 members of the group.

There were two large rectilinear holes along one side of the tent - either of which would have been large enough to allow persons to get out. These are in the middle section of the tent wall. There was also a long vertical slash or tear at the rear end of the tent.

There are also a number of smaller elongated holes (some aligned like a dotted line) which are suggestive of someone slashing the fabric multiple times.

As far as I can tell, all the holes are on the side of the tent facing toward the valley into which they descended from the pass and died - away from the nearby mountain slope.

It's worth noting that their homemade tent was made of canvas, which will tear in a relatively straight line once sufficiently stressed.

I've never been totally convinced all the holes in the tent were cuts made by people trying to escape. I still think it's possible one or more of the holes could represent tears in the fabric (i.e., fabric failure).

It was a homemade tent assembled from two older tents to make a larger / longer one. The main holes are in the center section - the section found collapsed. This is the section intended to be supported by multiple guy-lines (as illustrated in photos of the tent earlier in the expedition). This section wasn't well supported on that final night, because they could tie any lines only to ski poles.

They'd made camp on an exposed slope during snowy / windy weather, in a location I seriously doubt they'd intended (they pitched camp around sunset, so it's likely to have been a position circumstances forced on them). I suspect Dyatlov had planned to traverse the pass and make camp down in the valley into which they fled that night, but their progress had been slower than expected and they had to give up atop the pass.

Based on photos and their journal, that tent was ill-supported and probably subject to windy conditions unlike any encountered thus far on the trip. They weren't using their stove that final night, and there are conflicting claims as to whether they even had any firewood on hand at the pass. (The purportedly official version is that they had none; there's a claim one of the search party students mentioned a single log.)

It also bears pointing out that the day before they'd built a storage place and set aside approximately 55 - 60 kg of food and equipment (to be accessed again on the way back). They only traveled circa 2 miles to get from that cache site to the top of the pass - a relatively short amount of progress compared to previous days, even considering it was an uphill climb.

IMHO the evidence suggests they were probably extra-tired from the work of the day before and had a bad day by the time they had to pitch the tent on the pass (itself a hard task, as illustrated in the final surviving photos). As a result, I'm not sure they were at their best when confronted with whatever event(s) caused them to leave their campsite.

If the tent fabric failed, they would have been effectively exposed to the elements. If the tent also collapsed, they could have understandably panicked (above and beyond probably being exhausted and stressed over the final day's disappointing progress). They weren't using their only heat source, and there's reason to believe they didn't even have any fuel on hand.

The story has typically been portrayed as the mysterious abandonment of a workable campsite for no apparent reason. Except for the avalanche (or fear-of-avalanche) theories, nobody seems to have seriously explored the possibility that their campsite (specifically the tent) had become dangerously untenable - forcing them to decide to descend into the adjacent valley to get firewood and / or set up a temporary site with fire to wait for morning.

The obvious next question becomes: "If they were trying to execute such an extemporaneous plan, why were some of them reasonably clothed and others mysteriously under-clothed / without shoes?" The variations in clothing might have resulted from a panic to get off the pass ASAP, no matter how clothed some of them were.

However ...

This also assumes they all left the tent at the same time. There was no willy-nilly rush down into the valley. The search party found footprints accounting for the entire group, all clustered together in a common path. All this proves is that whoever came last followed the path set by the earliest one(s). It doesn't prove they all left the tent together.

It's always struck me that the notion of the entire group fleeing downslope to eventually die in different states of (un-)dress, in different locations, and apparently in the course of heading in different directions was a little too odd (this impression is, after all, the basis for all the mystery). It makes more sense to me that they weren't (at least weren't _always_) operating as a single group.

For example ... What if they found themselves untenably exposed on the pass, and a party of (prepared; adequately dressed) members were dispatched to either get firewood or start a fire (the fire site under the prominent tall cedar) to which the others could evacuate? As the group leader Dyatlov would have been a likely candidate for this dispatched sub-group. The adequately-clothed bodies of Dyatlov and 2 others were the only bodies found between the cedar / fire location and the tent, and all 3 bodies were oriented so as to suggest they were heading uphill toward the tent when they expired. If they'd been delayed in returning in accordance with their mission, the ones left at the exposed campsite - quite possibly weakened / 'maddened' by hypothermia some time later - could have set off into the valley out of desperation, following the path of their footprints but possibly never finding the first party. This is one scenario that makes more sense to me than all of them leaving in disparate states of dress, with Dyatlov and 2 others being the last to die in a vain attempt to get back to the tent as the final scene (as some accounts would have it).
 

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#74
EnolaGaia said:
I've never been totally convinced all the holes in the tent were cuts made by people trying to escape.
Totally agree. I implied this earlier. Doesn't make sense that they'd need to slice the tent open in desperation, especially in multiple places (save for an avalanche, which the evidence refutes).



EnolaGaia said:
This section wasn't well supported on that final night, because they could tie any lines only to ski poles.
What gives you the idea that the tent wasn't well supported; and what was their normal alternative to ski poles?



EnolaGaia said:
....nobody seems to have seriously explored the possibility that their campsite (specifically the tent) had become dangerously untenable....
Totally agree. Perhaps a bear attack? Snow melted through (or blew in through an existing fabric tear - or a tear FROM the bear) and soaked everything while they were sleeping? The absence of animal tracks doesn't say much because of the time gap and animal tracks being quicker to fade in the elements.



EnolaGaia said:
It makes more sense to me that they weren't (at least weren't _always_) operating as a single group.
I mentioned this earlier, too. I totally agree. In my opinion, the well-clothed people either left the tent at a different time than everyone else, or had slept in their clothes while the others hadn't.



EnolaGaia said:
The adequately-clothed bodies of Dyatlov and 2 others were the only bodies found between the cedar / fire location and the tent
Are you sure? Maybe I had this mixed up. I had thought the 4 who died in the ravine were the only well dressed people.



As a brand new idea: Are we certain everyone died at nighttime and that Dyatlov was with his team during the entire incident? If EnolaGaia is correct and the 3 who attempted to return to the tent were the only well-dressed ones, perhaps they weren't returning to the tent at all, but instead it was their first journey to the tent (a proverbial "diaper changing" (aka taking care of his lesser experienced team) in a last ditch effort to fix their mistake and save everyone's lives). In other words, maybe Dyatlov and the other 2 had seperated from the others earlier in the day to handle the food and items storage, and were making their first journey to the tent when they died. This explains why they were so well dressed, because they never undressed to sleep in the first place, and had never even BEEN to the tent while pitched in this location.
 

EnolaGaia

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#75
Human_84 said:
EnolaGaia said:
This section wasn't well supported on that final night, because they could tie any lines only to ski poles.
What gives you the idea that the tent wasn't well supported; and what was their normal alternative to ski poles?
A photo of the tent erected on one of the previous days of the expedition, among trees, can be found at:

http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/fg3/images/TAU0020.jpg

Notice the multiple guy-lines supporting the center 'roof', connecting to two rings or other appurtenances on the peak of the tent. This suspension was done by running the lines upward from their connection points on the tent. Also notice that this suspension of the center roofline involves the tent's most numerous and densely-co-located such tied connections at any one area. A lot of that tent's 'erect integrity' was vested in those center connections.

My guess is that they tied the center connections to skis erected upright in the snow when they made camp that last time.

NOTE: This photo also shows the difference in coloration between the two ends of the tent. This was the result of having spliced together two older tents into a larger hybrid.

NOTE: Of the two large rectilinear holes found in the tent's side, the rearmost one was directly underneath these two rings / grommets / whatever they were.

NOTE: Some accounts specifically claim the search party further ripped (and / or maybe cut?) the tent open to access the interior. This means that the subsequent photos of tent damage don't represent the results of 1 February alone.


Human_84 said:
In my opinion, the well-clothed people either left the tent at a different time than everyone else, or had slept in their clothes while the others hadn't.
Clothing items identified as belonging to the two least-clothed bodies (under the cedar) were found on others. So the least-clothed bodies didn't mean anyone left the tent so scantily clad as they were when found.

NOTE: According to my older notes, the search party claimed the mysteriously unused outerwear and footwear articles were collectively stacked / piled in the center of the tent, with some along the tent's outer edges - precisely the locations most likely to be obstructed if the tent had collapsed in the center on 1 February (and as it was found over 3 weeks later).


Human_84 said:
EnolaGaia said:
The adequately-clothed bodies of Dyatlov and 2 others were the only bodies found between the cedar / fire location and the tent
Are you sure? Maybe I had this mixed up. I had thought the 4 who died in the ravine were the only well dressed people.
The two underneath the cedar were not naked, but they were the least clothed bodies. This is often taken to indicate they died first. Articles of those two men's clothing were found on others - presumably taken from those who no longer needed them to try and help others survive. For example, the radioactive sweater and pants found on Dubinina (the female among the 4 found in the ravine) belonged to Krivonischenko - one of the two found beneath the cedar.

The best-dressed of all the victims (the mysterious Zolotarev) was among the ravine bodies. As far as I can tell, he was the only one found with footwear on both feet.

The 3 victims found between the cedar and the tent (all oriented so as to suggest they died attempting to get back to the tent) had multiple layers of clothing, but no footwear save for one boot on Slobodin. For example, Dyatlov was wearing a coat over a shirt and a sweater. The other two had two shirts; one had two sweaters while the other had only one. All were wearing at least 2 layers of pants.


Human_84 said:
As a brand new idea: Are we certain everyone died at nighttime and that Dyatlov was with his team during the entire incident?
Maybe and no, respectively. These are among the possibilities that arise once you drop the 'everyone fleeing at once' theory. The official reports claim evidence indicated the party had eaten early in the evening and died circa 8 hours after last eating. Accepting these conclusions means accepting the idea everyone was dead by circa 0200 - 0400 (before dawn). In contrast to all the useful items left in the tent, they took at least two flashlights. One was found atop the tent itself, turned off, and in working condition. A second was found in the valley into which they descended, batteries dead and the switch in the 'on' position (implication: died and tossed aside).

I've never found any firm source for why they thought the final meal occurred circa 6-7 p.m. on the night of February 1. All accounts indicate the last entry in the collective diary they were keeping was for the previous day (31 January). However, some accounts give specific details about 1 February which could only have come from notes made by the victims themselves (e.g., the alleged fact that they had gotten a late start in ascending the ridge to the pass). I've never been clear on the source of these alleged factoids.

They never assembled their stove that last night, so I assume it was a cold meal (i.e., something one need not presume, absent the cooking hassles, everyone necessarily did at the same time).


Human_84 said:
If EnolaGaia is correct and the 3 who attempted to return to the tent were the only well-dressed ones, perhaps they weren't returning to the tent at all, but instead it was their first journey to the tent (a proverbial "diaper changing" (aka taking care of his lesser experienced team) in a last ditch effort to fix their mistake and save everyone's lives). In other words, maybe Dyatlov and the other 2 had seperated from the others earlier in the day to handle the food and items storage, and were making their first journey to the tent when they died. This explains why they were so well dressed, because they never undressed to sleep in the first place, and had never even BEEN to the tent while pitched in this location.
(1) I never claimed the 3 (including Dyatlov) who died while apparently heading up-slope to the tent were the only adequately (I said 'adequately', not 'well') dressed victims. By 'adequately' I only meant 'not extremely under-dressed'. See above.

(2) Dyatlov and the other two couldn't have been approaching the tent from somewhere they hadn't yet been. The party ascended the pass from a valley on the south, where they'd set up their cache. They all fled to the valley in the opposite direction (to the north). A relatively recent online graphic at:

http://byaki.net/uploads/posts/2011-08/ ... lov_09.jpg

... illustrates the scene, though not to exacting scale. Point V is the previous night's encampment (circa 2.5 miles away). Point Z is the location of the final encampment. The points 1 through 5 indicate the location of the bodies. 1 - 3 are the ones found between the cedar and the tent (Dyatlov + 2, apparently heading back). Point 4 is the cedar / fire location (2 bodies), and point 5 is the ravine site (4 bodies).

The solid red line indicates their actual path, while the larger dotted red line indicates the planned path according to Dyatlov's map(s). Notice that on 1 February they ended up drifting westward from the ostensibly planned path across the pass - thus taking more time and forcing them to set up camp on the pass itself when sunset came.

The final photos show 4 of the party digging out a hole to erect the tent in snowy / windy conditions on the mountainside February 1. Between those four, the photographer, and the skis visible upright in the deep snow, everyone can be accounted for. See:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m24sj ... o1_500.png
 

Urvogel

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#76
kamalktk said:
Well, there's also tanned from a day at the beach versus tanned ala the leather production process. A 12 year old boy in a remote region might be familiar with the latter, as tanning leather would be a reasonable activity in such a place.
Death and the cold do very peculiar things to a body.

If you've ever seen pictures of the numerous corpses that litter Everest, quite a few of them have a look I'd call 'leathered'. For everyone in the Pass, I could easily see a combination of frostbite, the cold and the natural changes of a recently deceased body causing changes to their skintone. Plus I doubt a 12 year old boy would be hugely familiar with such things. If he's not expecting such a thing I'm sure the colour change in a corpse would make a huge impression on him.

To be honest I don't think the 'tanned' skin is anything more than misidentification. If there's any decent photos and someone with good forensic knowledge can look at them that would help, but I really think there's not any good evidence for it.
 

EnolaGaia

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#77
IMHO the group was already under duress (and possibly losing their rosy conviviality) by the time they pitched camp that last time.

A late start, deviation from the planned route across the ridge / pass, and mysteriously modest progress (relative to earlier days) left them exposed atop the pass as sunset approached. All at once they attempted to spend a night:

- in an exposed location (not in a valley among trees)
- without using their stove / oven

One thing that still bothers me about that last day ... If the conditions were so obviously bad once they found themselves off-course and exposed - why didn't they simply stay on their skis and coast down-slope to the valley / forest to which they'd eventually flee anyway? How long should it have taken them to ski down (e.g., to the cedar location 1.5 km from their actual campsite)? It would have been all downhill. Did they fear making camp in the dark more than they feared weathering the night on the mountain without heat?
 

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#78
Were there any weapons in the group? I imagine bears would be quite prevalent in the area
 

EnolaGaia

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#79
I've seen scattered claims the group was carrying a rifle, but this claim is not consistently mentioned.

The search party specifically reported they found no evidence of large animals at the tent site.

... And it was winter. Bears hibernate.
 

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#80
EnolaGaia said:
I've seen scattered claims the group was carrying a rifle, but this claim is not consistently mentioned.

The search party specifically reported they found no evidence of large animals at the tent site.

... And it was winter. Bears hibernate.
I know they hibernate. But they can be disturbed from that and a quick search shows there's also wolves in the area.

But unsubstantiated/scattered claims of one rifle does put pay to what I was thinking.
 

EnolaGaia

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#81
Update ...

The Aquiziam site (which had been mysteriously offline the last week or so) is accessible again, so I can once again check some items I'd noted from their materials.

On their Q&A page:

http://www.aquiziam.com/dyatlov_pass_answers.html

... they claim to have concluded there was no rifle. They state the notion of a rifle was based on a photo from a prior expedition - a photo widely circulated as relating to the Dyatlov incident, but mistakenly presumed to be _of_ that ill-fated group.
 

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#82
A mildly interesting video showing Dyatlov pass in full color. No exactly a perfect tour, but better than nothing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-D3h66oyKVQ


Better yet, skip to 6:38 on the video above, and 3:38 on the video below, and note that the rock formation is the exact same one. The photo with the hikers was probably taken on the morning of the indent. Spooky.


Hiker photo compilation video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttN-LSdn1zQ
 

EnolaGaia

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#83
I'm pretty sure the photo of the hikers at the big rock formation are the Dyatlov SEARCH party (over 3 weeks later), _not_ the Dyatlov party itself.

Multiple of the photos shown in that second video are ones taken by the search party.

The movie bits are also something other than Dyatlov's party. Dyatlov's party was carrying 4 (some claim 5) still cameras. No one's ever claimed they were carrying a movie camera.

It appears that the animated portions are the same as those shown on a recent Swiss multimedia presentation, which states at its beginning:

http://dyatlov.looo.ch/en/p/about-photos

... that the images / materials are sourced in part from the prosecutor's records (i.e., including materials generated during the search / investigation).

The blurry photo of who-knows-what that briefly appears is the only photo claimed to have been obtained from any of the Dyatlov party's still cameras. It's the final snapshot from one of the cameras found at the tent, and there's always been debate as to whether that shot was accidentally triggered by whomever (in the search party) handled the camera weeks later (as opposed to its having been taken by Dyatlov's party).

In any case, the photo of the hikers at the rock formation doesn't show the Dyatlov party. That upright rock formation is one of a set of such exposed boulders / formations on the middle of the three peaks on the ridge comprising the pass (the one typically labeled as being circa 880m in elevation). This middle peak is circa 1 km from the tent site, and the Dyatlov party passed well to the west of the rock formation's location.

Given its prominence and central location on the ridgeline that vertical formation is where the commemorative plaque was placed, along with a geodesic marker on the top of the rock. It's NOT where the Dyatlov party camped.

Let me illustrate ...

A photo of the plaque / memorial rock can be viewed at:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6028/589 ... 6e3a_o.jpg

Now look at this tourist photo looking westward from the monument-rock on the middle peak:

http://www.uralinform.ru/media/photo/big/04_3.jpg

The taller peak in the background is the westernmost / highest peak on that ridge, and its facing slope is approximately 1 km away. THAT peak in the background is the "Mountain of Death".

The Dyatlov party's tent was pitched on the sloping side of that distant / background peak, somewhere to the right of the monument rock in the foreground.

To get a more precise orientation, refer to the topographic map image at:

http://s001.radikal.ru/i196/1002/a8/9513e9e08557.jpg

The grid blocks are 1 km square. Let's name the blocks (x,y), where x is the row (1 - 5 from top to bottom) and y is the column (1 - 5 left to right).

The monument rock is in block (2,3). The monument rock is labeled (phonetically) as "ostanets s pamyatnikom" (outlying or remote memorial).

The tent site is the red dot in block (2,2), approximately 1 km away, labeled (phonetically) "mesto palatki".
 

EnolaGaia

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#84
This photo:

http://docs.podelise.ru/pars_docs/anima ... 1179ad.jpg

... shows the Dyatlov party's tent site on the slope of the westernmost peak (the 'Mountain of Death'). The triangle in the center of the photo is the location of their tent.

As you can see without the snowpack, there's significantly more slope than the search party photos suggest.
 

Human_84

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#85
EnolaGaia said:
This photo:

http://docs.podelise.ru/pars_docs/anima ... 1179ad.jpg

... shows the Dyatlov party's tent site on the slope of the westernmost peak (the 'Mountain of Death'). The triangle in the center of the photo is the location of their tent.

As you can see without the snowpack, there's significantly more slope than the search party photos suggest.
Any idea what the 19 degrees indicates?
 

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#87
Human_84 said:
Any idea what the 19 degrees indicates?
An estimation of the ground's slope at the campsite.

Many folks have attempted to evaluate the effective slope of the ground at the tent location, with estimates typically running in the range from 19 - 24 degrees off horizontal.

Circa 25 degrees is the commonly cited lower bound for obvious avalanche risk, though this doesn't mean avalanches are impossible at that low an amount of slope.

The estimated degree of slope at the tent site is plenty enough for a localized 'snow slip' (shift downslope of an adjacent snow mass, short of a runaway snow-slide / avalanche).

It also bears pointing out that the slope increases uphill / up-slope from the tent site further up onto the westernmost peak (the actual "Mountain of Death").

The most ubiquitous photo of the final encampment - e.g., at:

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/wp-conten ... v_tent.jpg

... is somewhat misleading. The camera angle (directed downslope) gives the impression there's not much slope, much less that they'd encamped right on the side of the largest / steepest peak. Another confusing factor is that this photo shows the tent *after* the search party had dug away a considerable amount of snow (notice all the snow chunks lying off to the side). Finally, this most famous photo fails to illustrate that they were literally on the side of the mountain, not some relatively level spot in the 'saddle' of the pass itself.

There's a variation on the avalanche theory that proposes there was a relatively localized snow slip from immediately up-slope rather than a catastrophic avalanche from farther up the mountain. One can find multiple diagrams illustrating the tent site's slope in relation to this theory, but most of these interesting diagrams (and attendant explanations) are found on Russian language sites. For example, a Russian language example of one such diagram, adopted by a German site, can be seen at:

http://www.allmystery.de/i/t4c2244_dyatlov_95.jpg

Another detailed diagram addressing slope can be seen at:

http://www.mountain.ru/article/article_img/1031/f_1.jpg

There are multiple other diagrams and annotated photos illustrating estimated slope at the tent site.
 

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#88
This annotated photo (one of the last photos taken by the Dyatlov party itself):

http://www.alpklubspb.ru/ass/dyatlov_123.jpg

... illustrates estimation of the snow pack's slope literally at the time they were digging out a level niche for pitching the tent that last day.

NOTE: There's actually a lot of interesting analytical discussions and illustrations to be found on the net - provided you are willing to prowl through Russian (and some German) sites and navigate to sites more interested in skiing / mountaineering than Forteana, etc.
 

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#89
This photo of the search party at the tent site:

http://www.alpklubspb.ru/ass/dyatlov_37.jpg

... is taken from farther away, and gives more of a sense of sloping terrain at the tent site. If you compare this photo to the 'famous one' (cited above, with two search party members crouched by the excavated tent) you'll see how the famous pic tends to downplay the slope at the site.
 
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