• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Eerie East London

I think this helps to clarify how the isle of dogs might have got it's name. . .
https://www.theundergroundmap.com/wp/isle-of-dogs/
Was known as Stepney Marsh.
'The chapel,' later a farmhouse was the only building.
'Isle of Dogs (Dogges) Farm' (originally known as 'Pomfret Manor') shown on a map of 1683.
And the word Dogger, turns out to mean a two masted Dutch fishing vessel - might be a connection there to?
Dog (n) : "Its origin remains one of the great mysteries of English etymology". At some point in the 16th century, the word 'dog' replaced the Saxon/old English 'hound' (hund) but no-one (ie Stephen Fry) seems to know where it came from. Dogge, as in Dogger Bank (remarkably unhelpful directions on Google map) was from the Dutch barges as mentioned. I do remember reading about an area of London near the Jewish Quarter where all the dead dogs were collected and dumped in a trench outside of the London Wall - Houndsditch
 
Dog (n) : "Its origin remains one of the great mysteries of English etymology". At some point in the 16th century, the word 'dog' replaced the Saxon/old English 'hound' (hund) but no-one (ie Stephen Fry) seems to know where it came from. Dogge, as in Dogger Bank (remarkably unhelpful directions on Google map) was from the Dutch barges as mentioned. I do remember reading about an area of London near the Jewish Quarter where all the dead dogs were collected and dumped in a trench outside of the London Wall - Houndsditch
This seems odd behaviour. Why would anyone (or people) collect and dump just the dead dogs? What about the cats, and pigs and other animals which died in the streets? Was there something particular or special about the corpses of dogs, that caused them to be picked up separately and dumped together? Or is there a kind of reverse etymology going on here, and Houndsditch was just where there were a lot of dogs about, snuffling around and eating all the bones and offal that got dumped in the ditch?

Not wanting to pick holes in your story @Bad Bungle, and there may well have been a very good reason for dead dogs to all have been dumped in one place, but I'm just curious.
 
This seems odd behaviour. Why would anyone (or people) collect and dump just the dead dogs? What about the cats, and pigs and other animals which died in the streets? Was there something particular or special about the corpses of dogs, that caused them to be picked up separately and dumped together? Or is there a kind of reverse etymology going on here, and Houndsditch was just where there were a lot of dogs about, snuffling around and eating all the bones and offal that got dumped in the ditch?

Not wanting to pick holes in your story @Bad Bungle, and there may well have been a very good reason for dead dogs to all have been dumped in one place, but I'm just curious.
I think you're right, the ditch outside the Wall was probably filled with dumped rubbish and that was where stray dogs (hounds) congregated. The original article I read (long time ago) concentrated more on the fact that the less salubrious parts of London (eg near a ditch of dead dogs) was where Jews were allowed to settle and run businesses.
 
Within these web pages (if you scroll down a good way), it shows maps which depict the Isle of Dogs as being a tiny part of the island peninsula in the South West corner, actually called the 'isle of dogs.'
Absolutely crammed full of info.
https://islandhistory.wordpress.com/
There does also mention somewhere, that it had a natural channel in which fishing boats were repaired.
 
Last edited:
@Sid

No concensus of why it is called The Isle of Dogs.

I was actually there today...should that be in "Minor coincidences" lol?

The best article on it's history I have read is this:

https://islandhistory.wordpress.com...f-dogs-is-not-named-after-royal-hunting-dogs/

I go by the best guess that author has, and think it is because dead dogs washed up on the sandbank.

@Ronnie Jersey

If you ever visit, you simply must go on a tour of the East End (Whitechapel is in the East End).

Try and book Rachel Kolsky as your guide, she's awesome.

I took this today...it's the flats at Dundee Wharf on the site of the old Limekiln Dockyard. (About 35 minutes' walk from Whitechapel.)

I took the photo, (am not in it) am facing East, so the Isle begins where the tall residential buildings are, that is the North West corner of the Isle near Westferry Circus.

I am standing in the next neighbourhood of Limehouse, and the odd structure as the main subject of the photo are balconies on the Thames walkway used by the residents of Dundee Wharf.

Dundee Wharf balconies.jpg
 
Last edited:
@Sid
I took this today...it's the flats at Dundee Wharf on the site of the old Limekiln Dockyard. (About 35 minutes' walk from Whitechapel.)

I took the photo, (am not in it) am facing East, so the Isle begins where the tall residential buildings are, that is the North West corner of the Isle near Westferry Circus.

I am standing in the next neighbourhood of Limehouse, and the odd structure as the main subject of the photo are balconies on the Thames walkway used by the residents of Dundee Wharf.
I was in the area on Friday afternoon. We had a couple of pints in The Grapes, a tiny, ancient pub once frequented by Charles Dickens. It's currently owned by Sir Ian McKellen, and Gandalf's staff is mounted behind the bar. A very friendly pub.

After that we walked to The Prospect of Whitby, another ancient tavern on the waterfront that sounds as though it was the model for every fictional pub of cutthroat pirates and thieves offered by the fantasies of fiction writers. It's the oldest riverside tavern, we're led to believe. A noose dangling from a gibbet overhanging the Thames sets the tone, and commemorates the hanging of pirates there. Its reputation once gave it the name The Devil's Tavern. There are information boards dotted around that talk of the history of the place.

It's much improved since then. The staff were very friendly. Our food was late, but when they realised we'd been waiting a while the house bought us a round. The food was worth the wait.
 
@Sid

No concensus of why it is called The Isle of Dogs.

I was actually there today...should that be in "Minor coincidences" lol?

The best article on it's history I have read is this:

https://islandhistory.wordpress.com...f-dogs-is-not-named-after-royal-hunting-dogs/

I go by the best guess that author has, and think it is because dead dogs washed up on the sandbank.

@Ronnie Jersey

If you ever visit, you simply must go on a tour of the East End (Whitechapel is in the East End).

Try and book Rachel Kolsky as your guide, she's awesome.

I took this today...it's the flats at Dundee Wharf on the site of the old Limekiln Dockyard. (About 35 minutes' walk from Whitechapel.)

I took the photo, (am not in it) am facing East, so the Isle begins where the tall residential buildings are, that is the North West corner of the Isle near Westferry Circus.

I am standing in the next neighbourhood of Limehouse, and the odd structure as the main subject of the photo are balconies on the Thames walkway used by the residents of Dundee Wharf.

View attachment 57499
I have a feeling that if we had stayed in England, I would have been involved in the 'Jack The Ripper Tours', right up my alley!
 
Last edited:
I was in the area on Friday afternoon. We had a couple of pints in The Grapes, a tiny, ancient pub once frequented by Charles Dickens. It's currently owned by Sir Ian McKellen, and Gandalf's staff is mounted behind the bar. A very friendly pub.

After that we walked to The Prospect of Whitby,

That's another coincidence because...

Just after I took this photo, I walked back to Narrow Street, and saw a group of men ask someone for directions.
The person they asked looked confused.

So I asked if I could be of help.
The men pointed East, and asked how far Wapping was.
I replied that they were walking the wrong way, and should walk 15 minutes West, as Wapping is the next neighbourhood to the West.
They asked if it had nice riverside pubs and I mentioned the Prospect Of Whitby.
They said they were on a pub crawl of riverside pubs, having just left The Grapes.

I have drunk at The Grapes, The Prospect of Whitby and several pubs in Wapping.

Dickens drank at most of the pubs in London!
 
Jack The Ripper Territory no less!
One of my maternal great grandfathers was a publican in Whitechapel/Spitalfields before during and after the Ripper murders. My Nan once told us he was in the downstairs flat under Mary Kelly’s on the night she was killed and made a quick getaway when the hoo hah started. Looking at the photos available on the net it doesn’t look like there would be a downstairs flat, there is no airy for instance, so this may be the equivalent of a family urban legend, maybe a scary tale he told his children when they were little.
 
One of my maternal great grandfathers was a publican in Whitechapel/Spitalfields before during and after the Ripper murders. My Nan once told us he was in the downstairs flat under Mary Kelly’s on the night she was killed and made a quick getaway when the hoo hah started. Looking at the photos available on the net it doesn’t look like there would be a downstairs flat, there is no airy for instance, so this may be the equivalent of a family urban legend, maybe a scary tale he told his children when they were little.
That's so interesting though - supposedly only a woman upstairs heard a woman scream 'Murder!', but that was all when Mary Kelly was being murdered?
Perhaps your relative meant he was in the room next door to Kelly?
 
That's so interesting though - supposedly only a woman upstairs heard a woman scream 'Murder!', but that was all when Mary Kelly was being murdered?
Perhaps your relative meant he was in the room next door to Kelly?
My Nan said he was staying in the flat downstairs, but as I wrote in the original post, I couldn’t find any evidence from photos that there was a downstairs. From what big Sis tells me there is no doubt he was a publican, living and working in the area at the time, and as such he would have been caught up in feelings and emotions that would have been running high at the time. I believe he would have passed this on to his children and, like all good Dads, a certain amount of embellishment may have been added to his stories.
 
My Nan said he was staying in the flat downstairs, but as I wrote in the original post, I couldn’t find any evidence from photos that there was a downstairs. From what big Sis tells me there is no doubt he was a publican, living and working in the area at the time, and as such he would have been caught up in feelings and emotions that would have been running high at the time. I believe he would have passed this on to his children and, like all good Dads, a certain amount of embellishment may have been added to his stories.
In any case, I've always wondered about that Mary Kelly murder - supposedly the walls were very thin, and nothing was heard except for that one woman upstairs hearing the word 'Murder'. No kicking or shrieking? Strange, although perhaps there were some heavy drinkers in the building, did police ever check that out?
 
In reference to my earlier posts (#12, #53) in regard to my odd – if disappointingly undramatic - multiple witness, broad daylight experience:

A little while back I was having a wander round the area via street view, and realised that I could capture some older images of the locus. (Being just beyond the edge of the original plan the site survived the wholesale redevelopment which occurred as part of the Olympic 2012 build - but it has been completely demolished more recently)

...working on different ends of the same piece, maybe three metres apart and we're doing so directly in front of the open security shutters from where we can see the entire yard entrance including the security guard - who constitutes the only other living being in the entire complex on that particular afternoon - sitting in his little office on the other side...

Marshgate lane 1.jpg


Marshgate lane 2 .jpg


The shutter door in question is the pinkish coloured one in the centre distance. At the time of the event described, the door was fully raised and myself and my colleague were directly in front of the opening, just inside the building. The workshop office was just to the right (as looking at the image) of the shutters. The security guard's office would be accessed via the pink door to the left side of the main gate.

A detail I got wrong in the retelling: The guard was – as per his habit on a sunny weekend day, when site traffic was virtually non-existent - sitting on a chair in front of his office (reading a newspaper at the time of this incident), not 'in' it.
 
Last edited:
I was in the area on Friday afternoon. We had a couple of pints in The Grapes, a tiny, ancient pub once frequented by Charles Dickens.
What’s odd about the grapes Pete, is that I lived in the area for the first 35 years of my life, and have worked in Fenchurch street since 1996, and bearing in mind that I am a great frequenter of pubs (especially historical pubs) not once have I ever entered the premises but can’t think why. Pubs like the Grapes are certainly right up my street.

I’m in town on Thursday, so a quick couple of pints before I catch the train home will rectify that.

Didn’t know it was owned by Sir Ian McKellen though.
 
What’s odd about the grapes Pete, is that I lived in the area for the first 35 years of my life, and have worked in Fenchurch street since 1996, and bearing in mind that I am a great frequenter of pubs (especially historical pubs) not once have I ever entered the premises but can’t think why. Pubs like the Grapes are certainly right up my street.

I’m in town on Thursday, so a quick couple of pints before I catch the train home will rectify that.

Didn’t know it was owned by Sir Ian McKellen though.
Now I'm confused - it seems there are two pubs in east London called The Grapes, both old. One on Lime Street and one on Narrow Street. Charles Dickens apparently frequented the one on Narrow Street, but DT seems to be referring to the one on Lime Street. I've never been past either of them, that I recall.
 
Now I'm confused - it seems there are two pubs in east London called The Grapes, both old. One on Lime Street and one on Narrow Street. Charles Dickens apparently frequented the one on Narrow Street, but DT seems to be referring to the one on Lime Street. I've never been past either of them, that I recall.
Sorry Simon. It is me that is causing the confusion.

I was getting confused with the Grapes in Narrow street (which I have been into a few times) with the Hoop and Grapes in Aldgate High Street (which I have never been into). The Hoop and Grapes was the pub I was referring to and which I will be popping into this week for the first time.

Sorry for any confusion mate.

The Grapes in Lime street (technically the City of London) I am a frequent visitor to as it’s on my way home to catch the train from Liverpool St..
 
Sorry Simon. It is me that is causing the confusion.

I was getting confused with the Grapes in Narrow street (which I have been into a few times) with the Hoop and Grapes in Aldgate High Street (which I have never been into). The Hoop and Grapes was the pub I was referring to and which I will be popping into this week for the first time.

Sorry for any confusion mate.

The Grapes in Lime street (technically the City of London) I am a frequent visitor to as it’s on my way home to catch the train from Liverpool St..
So there're three! Aaaarrrrgh!
 
I don't remember a pub of that name in Father Ted.

c2cd73ea6d77ca6a4a6416e308098c9e_w200.gif


Your dodgy taste aside, I seem to recall that the Romans used actual grape-bearing vines outside a building to indicate its status as a tavern, and that prior to the advent of physical signs, various plants were used for this purpose in Britain—vines and grapes being ill-suited to the climate.

Accurate or myth?
 
Now I'm confused - it seems there are two pubs in east London called The Grapes, both old. One on Lime Street and one on Narrow Street. Charles Dickens apparently frequented the one on Narrow Street, but DT seems to be referring to the one on Lime Street. I've never been past either of them, that I recall.
There is also a pub called the grapes at 160 Borough High Street, close to our family church, St George the Martyr. It is also a spit from the George, where Dickens also reputedly hung out, so it is feasible he may have popped in for a swallow there as well.

Given that Dickens is associated with so many pubs, is it possible that his death from a stroke at 58 may have been drink related?

https://londonwiki.co.uk/LondonPubs/SouthwarkStGeorgeMartyr/Grapes.shtml

https://www.greeneking.co.uk/pubs/greater-london/george-southwark

Edit: And is he reputed to haunt any of them?
 
View attachment 73429

Your dodgy taste aside, I seem to recall that the Romans used actual grape-bearing vines outside a building to indicate its status as a tavern, and that prior to the advent of physical signs, various plants were used for this purpose in Britain—vines and grapes being ill-suited to the climate.

Accurate or myth?
Accurate. . . sort-of, as it seems it all started, when Romans moved into Britain. Called the 'Taberanae,' (The 'Tavern'), they hung 'vine' leaves outside their establishments - which was a rare thing at the time, because of our climate being too cold, but they did attempt to grow grapes in certain places, so they substituted vine leaves for green bushes.
The 'Bush' being one of the first drinking house signs, alternative signs were also hoisted on long poles and they would display both if they sold both types of brews.

https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/Pub-Signs-of-Britain/
 
Last edited:
Back
Top