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Elves

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The subject of Elves must have been covered in the Fortean Times or this very forum in the past. What I want to know is what is the true depiction of an Elf? The reason I ask is Hawk the Slayer was on last night and their depiction differs greatly from Lord of the Rings. Hawk the Slayers Elf is rather short, dark haired and speaks like a robot. The only similarities that spring to mind between the two films are the ears and their skill with a bow. It can be confusing because if you didn't know Hawk the Slayers Elf was an Elf you'd be more inclined to think him more of as a Hobbit!! I know this all seems very silly. But who is right? Hawk the Slayer or Lord of the Rings?
 
Doug, you should be less obvious when trolling. You might as well wave a red flag as mention Hawk the Slayer (the quintessential Beloved Bad Fantasy Movie) in the same sentence with Tolkien.

You do give me an opportunity to put off working and pontificate on the frequency with which people speak of fictional works in terms of "right" and "reality," when a moment's reflection should make them re-phrase; and the way other people engage in these terms without protest. It's a work of fiction. Nothing "really" happened. The door never opens, but forever conceals both the lady and the tiger. (For the record, I think the princess chose the lady and took steps to have her murdered before the wedding could be consummated.)

What matters in fiction is whether it works at the fictional level - aesthetically, emotionally, artistically, in the context of the whole work. In that regard, Tolkien on his worst days will still be "more right" than Hawk the Slayer. A more appropriate comparison would be Tolkien and Shakespeare. The Quenya and Sindarin are very different elves than Puck, Titania, and Oberon; yet both Tolkien and Shakespeare achieve artistic success. The creators of Hawk the Slayer - oh, well, if you like the thing I'm not going to diss it to you.

Which version of elves is "right?" Phrasing the question that way makes the extraordinary assumption that we have a known elf to compare fictional depictions to - which we do not.

Questions of authenticity, in the sense of reflecting real folklore as opposed to literary fakelore or the author's independent invention, are arguably more legitimate than questions that presume the physical, objective reality of elves; but pinning down folk traditions is harder than it sounds. Real folk belief works just like real FTMB belief - it varies from person to person and place to place, and even people who believe that they agree have different visions. It's the nature of the material. Tolkien and Shakespeare both draw on authentic folk traditions to get their very different sorts of elves. In this respect, too, they are equally "right." It would surprise me very much to find that the creators of Hawk the Slayer drew on primary folk sources rather than having them mediated by other fictionwriters and the limitations of their special effects budget; but I am not up on HtS scholarship.

The Fay are a protean species. They are shapechangers, timewarpers, mischiefmakers, helpers, dwarfs, giants, illusionists, immortal, and the dead. If you want to understand fairy traditions, you have a lot of reading, and possibly interviews, ahead of you. Katharine Briggs is your best entry point if you can find her. Try the public library.
 
That's one hell of an answer you've given me there! I just thought movie makers had templates for this sort of thing. If a fantasy film had been made in a similar vein to Hawk the Slayer, say a year later, I'd expect a similar looking and acting Elf to be cast. Rather like aliens. They're generally depicted as Greys or elongated, etheral beings with hearts of gold. The aliens in A.I and Mission To Mars are very similar in apperance. One could be mistaken in thinking they're the same ones! Do you get my drift? Did Peter Jackson look at a typical Hollywood depiction of an Elf and think "Jesus! I ain't gonna have my Elves looking like the one in Hawk the fucking Slayer! We've gotta change how they look!" Hence the tall and attractive Scandanavian look for his Elves, rather than the short, ugly gypsy look in Hawk the Slayer.
 
Peter Jackson made his elves (and every other character) appear pretty much as Tolkien described them.

Where he got the description from I don't know!

I think the alien greys all came from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind". An incredibly successful film. I guess subsequent film makers built on the winning formula.
 
Interesting. Now I wonder how Elves in other fantasy books are described as? Has Tolkien set the precedent for how they're supposed to look? If I decide to produce and direct a fantasy film with Elves in it can I use Tolkiens? Would I be sued by the movie studio behind the Lord of the Rings films for plagarisim? Would I be better directing a Western?
 
Peter Jackson based his elves on the descriptions Tolkien gave, as was only right. Tolkien based his elves directly on the elves in Nordic mythology - hence the "Scandinavian look" - but not slavishly.

All source material undergoes transformation as it passes through the artist. In Tolkien's case, he was a Conlang hobbyist long before the term was coined. He invented Elvish as an amusement; he then needed to invent Elves to be the people who used that language, and the stories to be the mythology and folklore told in that language, and the maps to be the countries inhabited by the people who told the stories. Since he was primarily writing for his own and his family's amusement, he was not consistent - see Christopher Tolkien's massive compilation of his father's papers for examples - and even when he wrote for publication, his vision evolved as he worked. Compare Elrond and Rivendell of *The Hobbit* to the same character and place of *Lord of the Rings.* It's a bit of a shock and requires some creative activity on the part of the reader to reconcile the two sets.

The cat just got settled in my lap and I'm not going to disturb her to go pull references for you, but again the public library will be helpful. Because of his popularity, Tolkien scholarship is readily available outside of academic venues, and his source criticism is among the most straightforward in the business, as he was an academic and talked and wrote freely about his sources.

Now, as for the aliens and movie templates - these templates are called "stereotypes." Lesser artists use these out of laziness and greater artists make creative use of them, explore them, and create new ones. The Little Grey Alien stereotype began with Betty and Barney Hill. Prior to that, the stereotypical alien was a Little Green Man. Barney recovered the gray image under hypnosis. I have seen, but do not have readily available to me, an analysis which convincingly connected the crucial hypnosis session with the first airing of "The Galaxy Being" episode of The Outer Limits TV show, which did not show a Grey per se but contained images which could easily be taken over and transformed by Barney Hill's creative process (assuming either that his abduction was primarily a psychological event and not a real, physical one, or that the process of trying to remember included creative work). The Little Grey Alien stereotype overcame the Little Green Man stereotype gradually over the decades, with its use in Steven Spielberg's *Close Encounters of the Third Kind* marking the point at which it achieved ascendancy in the public mind. Spielberg used variations on the grey alien theme in the climax of that film, and not one of them has not appeared in subsequent CE3/4 reports.

Digression - For those, like me, who believe based on the accounts that most CE 3/4 narratives are shaped by cultural expectations regardless of what really happened, it at first seems odd that the ET type alien (which makes its first appearance in Close Encounters) does not appear more in eyewitness accounts. However, the Little Greys of Close Encounters, the Hill Abduction, etc., are not perceived as distinct individuals, and ET is. Whatever phenomenon is fronted by the cultural concept of the Grey Alien, it involves groups, not persons.

Incidentally, the other alien stereotypes in current use - Reptiloids, Insectoids, and Nordics - as well as the Greys and the Little Green Men bear a strong resemblance to traditional Fey imagery. *Passport to Magonia,* by Jacques Vallee, is the seminal work collating resemblances between the fairy tradition and the ET tradition.

Goodness, what a lot of reading I'm directing you to! But it's all good and it's all interesting and it's especially fun to read this sort of thing while lolling in the summer sun eating potato chips and drinking the cold beverage of your choice.
 
So to conclude this rather silly and time wasting thread, thanks to yours truly, elves are in fact aliens. It makes sense in an insane kind of way. I expect this revelation to be in next months edition of the Fortean times. With a picture of an Elf standing infront of a UFO.
 
According to my family genealogy, Ellwood derives from the Saxon name of Aelfweald as a corruption, the meaning given variously in translation as "Having the power of the Elves" ( i.e. a seer, a psychic), "Elf Ruler", "Elfin dweller in/by the wood." Take your pick! My photo available for a template (and a fee) is on the mb foto thread... however, I don't have pointy ears, pointy shoes, don't wear green and can't stand Tolkien. Sorry, but there you go!!!:D
That should kill this off.
 
Tolkien pretty much based his elves on the Norse model, and really idealised the Ljossaraflr, the light-elves who lived near to the gods and were generally benign; the Svartlafr were more like Tolkien's orcs, dark elves who lived in the earth and were malignant toward humans. Other creatures like dwarves, trolls and other beasties looked much like Gollum, I think.
 
It occurs to me (as I put off going to bed, where I expect to lie sweating with my brain running on a pointless hamsterwheel as I once again fail to sleep) that I should make clear that, although I'm having trouble keeping the distinction plain in each sentence, when I speak of the cultural origins of aliens and elves, I'm not stating one way or another any belief about what elves and aliens are in fact. I believe in fairies, actually - I'm just not sure what I'm believing in when I do that! They might be extraterrestrial, or they might be supernatural beings who live in hollow hills, or all of the phenomena I conflate into a single "fairy phenomenon" may have different causes, or the same effects might be achieved by different causes at different times, or -

*Something* happened to Betty and Barney Hill. *Something* happened to all those abductees, whether Thomas the Rhymer, Cherry of Zennor, or Betty Andreasson. The way they, and we, and the guy in the corner interpret what happened to them is strongly influenced, not only by our beliefs about the world we live in, but by the imagery of the fiction we consume; and the our interpretations of the world in turn influence fictional representations of elves, aliens, monsters, and motherships. At a fictional level, it's all legitimate. At the experiential level - your guess is as good as mine. Or better.
 
Although largely eclipsed by Tolkien, WB Yeats is arguably the other great modern source of elf lore in modern English.

At the close of the nineteenth century, Yeats toured Ireland gathering anecdotes on the fairies, having already established his writing career as an expert in Irish folk literature. They emerge in his poetry, short stories and plays, but the most striking manifestation is 'The Celtic Twilight', where Yeats speaks of Elves in a quite matter of fact way, suggesting that fairy abductions were still occurring.

As far as I know, there is no evidence Tolkien was indebted to Yeats; Tolkien was scrupulous in mentioning his sources in his letters, and while the debt to sources as diverse as Edward Gibbon and the Kalevala is evident, Yeats barely gets a look in (if at all). This was probably due to Tolkien's lack of interest in anything Celtic; his sources were Nordic or Germanic, with references to late Roman/Early Byzantine history thrown in.

Yeats' elves are darker than Tolkien's; their motives are difficult to discern, and likely to lead to ruin when they cross our paths.

The other significent difference between Yeats and Tolkien was that Yeats believed Elves existed, and conducted his oral research like a contempory anomolies researcher. In that respect, the Celtic Twilight is a forgotton Fortean classic.
 
I enjoy Hawk The Slayer as a good ol' fashioned sword and sorcery film. Yes, it has moments of lousy special effects and poor acting ... but it's entertainment, people, not a serious social or historical presentation. I liked both the "new" style of dwarf (bearded but not a Tolkein-style cliche) and giant (huge and strong but not 40 ft. tall) - Ray Charleson, IMHO, played Crow the Elf in a slightly wooden but strangely emotional manner. His stilted speech, the way he always stands slightly apart from everyone ... they were all attempts to give the feeling of being alien and distant from the others. Okay, so he didn't pull it off but at least he tried.

The point is, Hawk attempted to be a fantasy film, with the usual elements of magic and mystic races, but with attempts to break away from templates written by Tolkein. There is a huge difference between Tolkein and Hawk - neither is better, both should be taken at their own values.

Tolkien, in drawing on his knowledge of Scandanavian myth, is not the final authority on what an elf or dwarf is or should be. And Jackson's films are not the benchmark by which other fantasy films should be set against. They are good - but they are one take on a very complex and ancient myth.
 
Of course not, Stormkhan, nobody's the final authority on anything, certainly not on elves! I hope I wasn't too rude about HtS; all the fans of it I know (and I'm a gamer - I know quite a few!) class it as Good Crud. When you consider particularly the film-fantasy wasteland of its time period, you really can only be so hard on the thing. But you can only be so kind, too. If nothing else, it's re-watchable, as evidenced by the number of gamers who watch it every time it comes back to cable in their area.

There's even an issue of Knights of the Dinner Table in which Dave, Bob, and Brian weight HtS against LotR, and find LotR wanting. I have no idea which one, alas. I could track it down if anybody really wanted to know.
 
Cherry of Zennor
Peni Tell me about something about that - Zennor is just up the road from me, and I have vague recollections of taking my kids years ago to see a puppet theatre show by a group called "Kneehigh" which included this story. Is it a changeling tale?
 
Ah, Zennor! A wonderful village that I miss, what with it's boundary millstone, the mermaid legend and damn fine coastal scenery!

The legends surrounding the "wee folk" mostly apply to knockers or, if you're really desperate, piskies (who are more closely related to imps).
Cherry of Zennor - new to me too! Tell all, Peni! Did she get seized by the Knockers? Was this the name of the Zennor mermaid?
 
Cherry of Zennor

It's a new one to me too.

I have to say I have read similar folktales before but never seen it referred to as Cherry of Zennor.
 
Everything I know about Cherry of Zennor I learned from my copy of Katherine Briggs's *Encyclopedia of Fairies,* an invaluable book out of which I have probably gotten more day-to-day use than anything else besides the dictionary and my Peterson's Guide.

Her version of the story is slightly different and is sourced from Hunt's *Romances of the West of England.* It's part of a tradition she calls the "Fairy Widower." Curiously, it was not the story I was thinking of! I had crossed it in my mind with that other Cornish abductee, Anne Jefferies, who was approached by six amourous little men and carried off to fairyland, only be summarily ejected when she tried to consummate the relationship with one of the men (in fairyland, she had shrunk or they had grown). I've got to go, but I'll look for a link later if Stormkhan doesn't enlighten everyone.
 
Anne Jefferies, Hunt

It turns out that Hunt's *Romances of the West of England* is online at Sacred Texts.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/prwe/index.htm

The Jefferies story is divided into two parts, one account of the abduction in the "Fairies" section, and one account of her later life, derived from a letter from a gentleman who interviewed her when she was old, in the Appendix. I decided to post the ToC, since Hunt is an important source of fairy lore and you can link to untold riches this way. In later life, Anne was fed by the fairies and received a power of healing. These fairies were unusual (not that there are any usual fairies!), in that they quoted scripture.
 
I'm sure I have Woodelf blood in me as I only feel "right" when in the woods.
 
I always assumed that elves were supposed to represent 'pre-fall' humans, with no concept of good or evil.

In other words, a sentient race at one with the natural world around them.

I lost my copy of Katherine Briggs years ago (stolen by the Unseelie Court when I forgot to leave them some milk and honey I reckon). I'm going to have to get another copy. It is a very, very good book.
 
Peni said:
... Anne Jefferies, who was approached by six amourous little men and carried off to fairyland, only be summarily ejected when she tried to consummate the relationship with one of the men (in fairyland, she had shrunk or they had grown).

So, these six elves, believing heavily in the no-sex-before-marriage morality decide to start a relationship with a girlie who's not averse to cross-species relationships ... and then are horrifed when she gets a little sexually frustrated?

Boy! No wonder elves don't get seen around much! They're too priceless for words!
:D
 
The Stahl's ear deformity occurs when an extra crease or fold is present in the cartilage of the ear. This extra fold extends through to the helical rim and tends to give the ear a prominent appearance and often a pointed shape. Some people have described the ear as looking elfish.

elf.png
 
The Stahl's ear deformity occurs when an extra crease or fold is present in the cartilage of the ear. This extra fold extends through to the helical rim and tends to give the ear a prominent appearance and often a pointed shape. Some people have described the ear as looking elfish.

View attachment 68871
Young lad who served me at the supermarket today has oddly deformed ears. I don't like to look to see whether they are like this - it's rude to stare, etc. He is deaf and has 2 huge hearing aids.
 
Ok, you describe it as a deformity but isnt it just different?
Exactly!
We know that, within the range of human body shapes, there have been Hobbit-sized humans (Homo floresiensis), human dwarfs (e.g. Peter Dinklage), human giants (e.g. Robert Wadlow), so why not humans with elf-ears?
Oh and it wasn't my description. I just cut and pasted it from the medical page.
 
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There is also the theory that many stories of 'little people' may have their root in the rare forms of primordial dwarfism that affect a very few people - the whole body is miniature and facial features can have what we now call an 'elfin' look.

Charlotte Garside's first day at school, weighing 9lb and 68cm tall (about the size of a 2 month old baby) alongside two regular sized 4-5 year olds. She has grown a bit since and is now almost 16.


World's smallest girl Charlotte Garside starts first day at primary school  | Daily Mail Online


Credit: © Daniel Meritt / Barcroft Media
 
The Stahl's ear deformity occurs when an extra crease or fold is present in the cartilage of the ear. This extra fold extends through to the helical rim and tends to give the ear a prominent appearance and often a pointed shape. Some people have described the ear as looking elfish.

View attachment 68871
Youngest daughter had this on both ears. She had rather pointy ears until she was about fourteen, when they kind of grew outwards more and erased the fold. She still (at 27) has a very slight 'tip' to her ears, but nothing like as pointy as they were.

Edited to add - she's also largely deaf. I wonder if the two are related.
 
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