Enid Blyton

[Anonymous]

Re: Little Black Sambo

I made sure I bought a copy for my twins. It's not racist at all, the name Sambo has unfortunate connotations these days, but I'm not sure it did at the time the book was written. And Sambo is black.

The problem is, we are pointed out that he is black! However, from the pictures it si obvious, so why point it out at all?

After all, we don't have books called 'Just White William' or the 'White Famous Five' or 'White Jenning and White Darbyshire' do we?

The fact that the author feels attention should be drawn to his skin colour is in itself discriminatory.

Know what I mean?

 

[Anonymous]

lol a bit course but since reading this thread ive been on the lookout for somthing funny on every page

from Michaels Moorcock's von Bek
"He was arm deep in muff........"

 

[marion]

I don't know if it bad to be too PC with kids , I was brought up to be totally un racist , to the point where I thought for a while that black people were better than white people , that soon levelled out and now to me people are whatever they are inside .
Older children's books aren't all bad . I have a wonderful one called Tommy Smith's Animals , first published in 1899 . Tommy Smith is a foul child - cruel to animals and cruel to his dog if it fails to catch small creatures for him . The animals fight back - by deciding to tell him about themselves and their lives . I particularly like this book because one of the animals featured is a rat which manages to get Tommy to admire his wiley ways.
I wasn't allowed to read much Enid Blyton , my mother said she was twisted and hated children. I didn't like what I did read - too much spanking .

 

[carole]

Re: Little Black Sambo



The problem is, we are pointed out that he is black! However, from the pictures it si obvious, so why point it out at all?

After all, we don't have books called 'Just White William' or the 'White Famous Five' or 'White Jenning and White Darbyshire' do we?

The fact that the author feels attention should be drawn to his skin colour is in itself discriminatory.

Know what I mean?

When the book was written (I don't know if the author was British, but I'm assuming so), a black person would have been a rare sight, therefore his colour would have been remarked upon. Yet another example of the PC brigade taking offence where none was originally intended.

If you want to see a prime example of black people being treated atrociously, you ought to go to Nigeria. The country is very badly run due to chronic corruption, the currency is almost worthless, there is widespread lawlessness and lots of very, very poor people. Yet Nigeria has billions in oil revenue - where does it all go to? To a comparatively few corrupt and very rich people. They're all the same colour, it's not a case of white exploiting black, but black exploiting black, so I think there are more important things to be concerned about in the world than the name of a book which is more than 100 years old!

Carole

Carole

 

[Anonymous]

Fair points, but the long and short of it is: times change. Popular culture changes, as does the consensus view of what is acceptable. After all, how many parents would read 'Shock Headed Peter' to their children nowadays?

Mind you, think on the mighty Dahl:

'And then, with one enormous Chew
They bit the lady's tongue in two...
She spent her life shut up in some
Revolting sanatorium'

I used to love that one. That and:

'A hundred knives go slice slice slice
We add some sugar, cream and spice'

 

[FelixAntonius]

Or:-

"Oh piglet you must never trust,
Young ladies of the upper crust,
For now when Miss Hood goes from place to place,
She has not just TWO wolfskin coats.
BUT, a pig skin traveling case!!!!!

i.e. Never trust them uper class b****rds!!!!!!

 

[Kondoru]

Roald Dahl is one of my favorite authors, but I do believe a lot of his writing is a tad corrupt.

I used to like Enid Blyton too, but was told it was upper class nonsense and would end in me reading C Cookson and other kack novelists...

another favorite of mine is A A Milne...what `were` his characters up to in the 100 aker wood??

(besides a lot of homosexuality)

I watch a lot of anime and the baddies are always european (often from that same middle european country that features in E Blytons books) and the goodies japs.

 

[chockfullahate]

i have an old comic called comic kuts i think, would have to dig it out, which has a comic strip in it called the "3 little nigs", dates to the '30s i think.

 

[escargot]

I was at a funeral in June where a bit of AA Milne was read. Fans will know which extract - it's where a couple of characters are discussing a time when one of them won't be there any more.
Very simply written, and extremely moving. The whole church was in tears. Beautiful.

 

[Imperial_Call]

I used to be an avid Famous Five reader as a child, I never noticed anything "wrong" with them but now as an adult I think they're decidedly dodgy ...

Backaways there, someone mentioned the "Jill" books, I have the whole set of them [bought in the 70s/80s], and Jill's pony was a piebald (black and white) called Black Boy, although before she bought him [and was told his real name] she called him Patchy.

 

[marslight]

Sambo's? Did you say SAMBO'S???

A bit off-topic, but back in the sixties there was a chain of coffee shops in California called Sambo's. Seems hard to believe now, and even then their cartoon Sambo was obviously Indian, with turban and sycophantic tiger at his side.

The chain is gone now, but menus and matchbooks from Sambo's are quite collectable items. In more than one antique/collectable shop I have seen them in with "Black" collectables. I have never had the nerve to ask the proprietors why

 

[chockfullahate]

i have an old comic called comic kuts i think, would have to dig it out, which has a comic strip in it called the "3 little nigs", dates to the '30s i think.

was the rainbow not comic kuts. strange comic indeed.

 

[Anonymous]

In German speaking countries there's a children's game that starts with "Who's afraid of the Black Man?" ("Wer fürchtet sich vorm Schwarzen Mann?").
The term "Schwarzer Mann" actually means a Bogeyman, something that lives where it's dark and spooky, like the basement, or the attic, or an old wardrobe, and supposedly abducts naughty little children.
And yet, for obvious reasons, it's considered rather un-PC nowadays, and the "Schwarzer Mann" part of the game is usually exchanged with something a bit more harmless like, for example, "Octopus".

 

[oll_lewis]

Insidentally if i remember correctly the chocalate cock story the thread starts with was used in one of the definitions of the words in 'rogers profanasaurus' the dictionary of swear words in Viz, as fas as I'm aware thats where it came from as they useully write their own material in Viz

 

[carole]

Re: Little Black Sambo



The problem is, we are pointed out that he is black! However, from the pictures it si obvious, so why point it out at all?

After all, we don't have books called 'Just White William' or the 'White Famous Five' or 'White Jenning and White Darbyshire' do we?

The fact that the author feels attention should be drawn to his skin colour is in itself discriminatory.

Know what I mean?

The book was written for white children at a time when a black person was an uncommon sight, which is why attention is drawn.

Why does everyone get all jittery at the mention of a person's colour? If you say a person's skin is brown, black, purple with yellow spots, whatever, you're just pointing out a fact, you're not saying that that person is any less worthy because of his (or her, don't want to be sexist, do we? ) colour.

At least that's my point of view . . .

Carole

 

[hedgewizard1]

A further example of censorship

There's an old Looney Tunes cartoon that involves one character being hit over the head time and again, and changing nationality/ethnicity with each blow. He starts out ostensibly white American, and goes through several changes, including Chinese, American Indian, a few European types (Italian and French, maybe?), and African. I saw it several times over the years growing up (I would guess that it dates back to the 1940's. Last time I saw it, the African transition had been edited out. Which struck me as peculiarly PC. ALL the changes were potentially offensive parodies. So why leave them alone, except for the African one? As an attempt to forestall negative comments from the Black community, it makes a certian limited sense. But the other peoples are portrayed just as offensively. If the goal was to avoid offending people, just dump the whole thing. Or is it more important, in the eyes of whoever made the decision, not to offend only certain people?

 

[Leaferne]

It's a tricky question...I know that sometimes people will joke about German stereotypes when they find out I'm German-Canadian, something along the lines of "Please don't put me in a boxcar" or "Invaded any countries lately?" Yet these same people would not dream of "humourously" asking, say, an African-Canadian, if they like watermelon and fried chicken. So why is it OK to needle me and not them?

 

[marslight]

German stereotypes

A: "You lost the war, you miserable kraut!"

B: "You are white and Northern European, so you are fair game"

C: "Political correctness doesn't apply to you, or to other Northern Europeans"

D: "It vass chust a choke! Can't you Chermans take a choke? It vass all in fun!"

E: "It's your fault you are German! If you had any sense at all; you would have been born a Readily Ascertainable Member Of a Certified Minority Group. Have you considered becoming Black or Asian? I hear there are openings available amongst Native Americans/First Nations."

 

[Leaferne]

Re: German stereotypes

A: "You lost the war, you miserable kraut!"

OK, now you sound like my bf.

 

[Anonymous]

Slightly ot but i worked for a German company (staffed by 60% Germans) and it's right about them not having a sense of humour. Most of them thought it was hilarious to fart while i was under/behind the desk checking out the network/computer cables but few of them found anything else funny.....

 

[escargot]

:laughing:
Sorry.
What a bunch of w*nkers. I'd have refused to do anything for them.

Off-thread, but related-
The BF sometimes has to go into a factory site where there are some very coarse women. He and other men are subjected to quite vile verbal abuse in the form of obscene 'teasing' ('Whoah, here's a big boy, let's see if he's big all over!' etc) and 'joking' threats to forcibly undress them.

I said, the minute they start that, turn round and walk out, and don't return until you get an apology. Nobody has to put up with that, and they'll soon mend their ways when they find they can't resume work until you've fixed the computer. Simple.

He says, no, that's like being scared of women, I'd never live it down..........

A woman spoken to like that would be justified in bursting into tears, going on immediate sick leave and phoning her lawyer, all the time rubbing her hands in glee.

 

[Anonymous]

The BF sometimes has to go into a factory site where there are some very coarse women

Being originally from the North East where men are not known to be easily intimidated a friend of mine who worked at the Tudor crisp factory a few years ago said there were women who worked in there who actually frightened him and he would get out of their way as soon as was humanly possible saying as little as possible whilst in their company.
I was never a great fan of the series but some of the characters from Bad Girls spring to mind.....

 

[nambo2]

It's a tricky question...I know that sometimes people will joke about German stereotypes when they find out I'm German-Canadian, something along the lines of "Please don't put me in a boxcar" or "Invaded any countries lately?" Yet these same people would not dream of "humourously" asking, say, an African-Canadian, if they like watermelon and fried chicken. So why is it OK to needle me and not them?

Here in England, the only people it is still acceptable to riducle and stereotype is the Germans, even the national gutter press will print offending material and I think the reason is that Germans are big enough, and grown-up enough to not be offended by it, they certainly dont complain. They are proud to be German and so any reminder of the fact can only be a compliment, the crap that goes with it is just that, crap, and so can be shrugged off.

By the same token, whereas most White people dont have a problem with the colour of a Black mans skin, Blacks themselves give the impression that they are obsessed by it and will take every oppurtunity to take offence. We had a black felt manikin in our shop in Brixton to desplay jackets on, we had to take it down as a Black woman found it racially offensive.
Its got so that untill you get to know a Black person, its too risky to even talk to them, never mind excange playfull insults and micky-take with each other that was allways an important part of bonding with your workmates.

My last job, the most fun person I liked to be with, was a Black lady, we had a generator delivered that looked like a big box with a door at each end, knowing my Father to be German, and the generators reasemblance to a gas chamber, she once put on her innocent coy face and said to me "whats that?, you must know what its for?" before creasing up in fits of giggles and indeed I joined her laughing, yet despite our closeness, I could never bring myself to do similar to her, even though I dont think she would have taken offence.

I too think PC has caused a lot of harm and no good whatsoever.

 

[Beakmoo]

Here in England, the only people it is still acceptable to riducle and stereotype is the Germans,

Also the French, who are supposed to be arrogant and unwashed (totally untrue) and the Belgians, who are apparently boring and mad. :hmph: (also untrue). (Sally excepted )

 

[TheQuixote]

By the same token, whereas most White people dont have a problem with the colour of a Black mans skin, Blacks themselves give the impression that they are obsessed by it and will take every oppurtunity to take offence.

[...]

Its got so that untill you get to know a Black person, its too risky to even talk to them, never mind excange playfull insults and micky-take with each other that was allways an important part of bonding with your workmates.

[...]

I too think PC has caused a lot of harm and no good whatsoever.

Blacks themselves??? are obsessed by their skin?

Its got so that untill you get to know a Black person, its too risky to even talk to them... ah I'll have to remember that one in future.

Next time you post crap like that, you might like to put an In My Opinion in front of it.


Before I get the obligatory "PC is the scourge of the world and this only goes to prove it, can't have a discussion without someone bleating that this and that is offensive", having an opinion is fine and dandy as long as you point out it is your opinion and in this case your own sweeping generalisation of the Blacks

 

[Kondoru]

Several black people I have known have had a chip on their shoulder.

I have known people of many different races, and most arent uppity, but i too am carefull as to what I say around blacks

 

[stu neville]

Several black people I have known have had a chip on their shoulder.

I have known people of many different races, and most arent uppity, but i too am carefull as to what I say around blacks

Funnily enough, I know a lot of white people who are equally bigoted.

There just seem to be rather more of them..

Per capita, there are probably just as many bigots in any ethnic community. The majority of black people (and Asian people, and any other ethnic group you can think of) are quite sensible enough to know when something is racially aggravated, and when it's unrelated but capable of misapprehension. Ditto most white people.

 

[Leaferne]

The movie Eurotrip does a hilarious job of playing on national stereotypes. Let's see...

English: booze-soaked but curiously matey soccer hooligans, xenophobic and violent

Dutch: very blase about drugs and sex

French: annoying, fond of mimes and food

Americans: gormless, sex-obsessed

Germans: clinical, fans of David Hasselhof

Generalized Eastern Europeans: desperately poor (one character buys a hotel with spare change he gets from an American)

Italians: sleazy but charming, move their hands a lot

(OK, it sounds awful, but it's really a funny cute little movie if you like teen sex romps)

Guess I'm probably making things worse. Don't know if I feel like goose-stepping over to my David Hasselhof CD collection, or sitting down with a two-four of Molson to watch hockey tapes (they're on strike, eh) on the chesterfield with my pet moose named Gord. Maybe I'll just have a Royal Commission look into it; there must be some people from Quebec who can get paid lotsa loonies for that, eh.

 

[PeniG]

Going back several days (I was out of town), I can explain the problem with Little Black Sambo, which is - for DECADES this was the only black image in all of American children's literature, apart from incidental background characters.

On the one hand (and this is what the people who like Sambo emphasize and consider the important point), Sambo is a clever boy from a strong, loving family who, in the end, triumphs over the tigers. So the only non-incidental black character in American children's literature for decades was a positive one, and that's a good thing, right? The story has a stong narrative flow and the prose a catchy rhythm, so that makes it a good book.

On the other hand - look at the original pictures. I mean, just look at them! And the positiveness of the character doesn't seem to have influenced the behavior of very many Americans during the Jim Crow years, except in one respect - i.e., the custom of addressing every black man you met as Sambo when you weren't calling him boy or George (if he was a Pullman porter) or the n-word. Until an entire generation of black men who were consistently addressed in this fashion dies, a substantial portion of the population will be unable to hear the word "Sambo" without wanting to smash heads, and I completely understand this.

During the past couple of years, attempts have been made to rewrite or reissue the story in ways that allow its merits to appear without setting off the conditioned reflexes of those of us who survived the 60s; but it is just plain too early. The books will still be there in a generation or two or three, when they can be read innocently again. Books are patient.

Psst - ignore Nambo. If you check his other posts, it's clear that he's trolling and will go pester some other board if we don't take his bait.

 

[Yithian]

I had a golliwog. I loved my golliwog. And I had a black doll once, but I hated dolls so it didn't last long. None of them did.

My mum's got her gollywog rag doll and i used to have a collection of the Rowntree's Gollywog badges - used to wear a different one on my coat whenever i went out. We're hardly Klan members or BNP voters...