• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Evil

A

Anonymous

Guest
Do you believe in "evil"?
Does is exist? Is it merely an old name for "mental illness", and so on?
What or who is evil? Anything, anyone?
Is evil simply the opposite of good, or does it represent something deeper and more complex? Can evil be understood at all or, in the case of people, do we have to disguise it in terms like "psychopath" etc.?
Personally, I don't know. I believe there are people who do bad things because, well, they just enjoy causing misery and suffering to others.
I think (I don't say I know) evil does exist in the sense that a small number of minds are driven toward destructive and sadistic behaviours. This may be the result of suffering at the hands of similarly depraved people during the formative years of life, but on the other hand, it may not.
Who is to say what defines "evil"? Is the term redundant in this modern, scientific world of psychology and analysis, or is there another, rather more - dare I say it - spiritual dimension?
Is evil culturally peculiar or is there a universal definition (I doubt it)? Similarly, is it not also historically and socially determined?
I'd like to hear what you lot have to say about it.
 
Scummy psycho rapist child killers do it because it gives them an orgasm. Simple as that. They don't want to talk philosophy. It's a primal white trash thing.

Deal with it.
 
I think evil means different things depending on the context. We tend to use it rather freely, often without closely defining it.

For individuals, finding the line between mad and bad is very difficult. It's too easy to assign labels based on an emotional response; a lot of people would think of, for instance, serial killers when asked to describe evil human beings but I would classify them as psychologically dysfunctional rather than immoral.

It's when it events like the holocaust or the massacres in Rwanda and Sbrencia happen that I personally employ the word 'evil'. Individual psychology has no place here- these events are the result of conscious, premeditated decisions freely made by mentally competent people. What occured in the childhoods of the people who carry out these crimes can have no real relevance to the horrific acts that they commit on a grand scale.

I also think that many people that we classify as evil are really amoral. They aren't actually bad, they just lack empathy and a sense of right and wrong. They can be perfectly intelligent and even have a good intuitive sense of how other people think (completely different from caring how they feel, mind) and they can be very successful in life. I may be being cynical here, but I think those qualities often carry people far in politics, business and public life generally.

Came over all Machiavellian there.
:confused:
 
Wastrel, that is a very good replyl!

When a mentally disturbed person kills someone, I suppose it is the act that is evil, not necessarily the person, because of his'her mental state. Doesn't make it any better for the victim or victim's family/friends, though . . .

Mental illness aside, does anyone here think it is possible to be 'possessed' by an 'evil spirit' and thus carry out horrific acts?

Carole
 
Call me an old-school intentionalist, but I have to say that to me the motive for an act is very important. Ethical questions are horrendously tricky and I really don't know enough about the area to go into much depth but I would suggest that to be truly evil one must be acting of one's own volition with the awareness of what one is doing.

There are many problems with this stance of course- how many of us are really aware of what we are doing? But it is the closest thing to an answer that I can see.

I don't believe it to be an effect, because if someone is trying to do the right thing but they get a terrible result then it is a very sad thing, but it is not an evil thing. The person who made that decision would regret that their attempt had failed but an evil person does not feel regret- although they may feign it if it suits their ends.

I guess that's not very consistent, but it is how I look at things.

As to whether there are evil or otherwise entities from Elsewhere capable of intervening in human affairs I do not know. I don't think those responsible for the most terrible events of recent years are a consequence of their acts if they are- either they are subtle in their acting or they are not very good at achieving their ends on a large scale, if they exist.
 
If you commit an evil act then you are presumably evil, but the definition of an evil act depends on a moral code. Most of us share that code and would agree what constitutes evil. However if we are discussing universal good/evil beyond society ,then you cannot say that acts that take place in the galaxy ( or at atomic level) are evil. A comet that destroys the earth or positron that destroys an electron is not evil. So it's a human thing!
However, plenty of psychics have experienced some sense of "evilness" in phenomena, especially with a sense of place, and describe this feeling as one of "universal" evil of a terrible intensity. Anyone any experience of this first hand?
 
Evil is a thing. Good is a thing.
Good can not control you; that is not it's nature.
Evil can, and will, control you if you are not strong enough to resist it.
Most people sort of skirt it's edges now and again, a few fall in.

Ye Gods. I just read that back. I had no idea how bloody Star Wars-y that sounded when I wrote it...yeeeuch
 
Superstition has worked fine for me so far; I'm not dead, but I'm fairly sure that I should have been dozens of times...
 
I think that the old saying
The road to hell is paved with good inentions.
neatly sums up some aspects of this debate, but the topic is a marvellously profound one.

Is it all down to perception and moral, social or religious values? or are there a universal commandment-like set of rules we can agree on? along the lines of:
  • Killing - bad
    Laying down your life for another - good
    Satanists - bad
    Christians - good
    Moslems - good
Do you think anyone can EVER draw up a definitive, simplistic list?
 
Arthur ASCII said:
Is it all down to perception and moral, social or religious values? or are there a universal commandment-like set of rules we can agree on? along the lines of:
  • Killing - bad
    Laying down your life for another - good
    Satanists - bad
    Christians - good
    Moslems - good
Do you think anyone can EVER draw up a definitive, simplistic list?

No, because there's too many shades of grey. Take the list above:

Killing - mostly bad, but what about voluntary euthanasia?
Laying down your life for another - noble, in principle, but what if the person for whom you lay down your life is of the Bin Laden or Milosovic variety?
Satanists - again, mostly bad, but there might be quite nice ones
Christians - what, like Torquemada?
Moslems - like the Ayatollah Khomeni, or the Taliban?

Christianity and Islam are in themselves good, as are most practitioners of them, but as usual it can get corrupted in the practical application. And if those who corrupt the central message of each (ie be nice to others) is in a position of authority in a theocratic society they can take an entire nation with them, willingly or not on the part of the citizens.
 
Christianity = Evil?

Christianity and Islam are in themselves good, as are most practitioners of them, but as usual it can get corrupted in the practical application. And if those who corrupt the central message of each (ie be nice to others) is in a position of authority in a theocratic society they can take an entire nation with them, willingly or not on the part of the citizens

If an ethical system is so badly drafted that it can be used to justify pogroms, crusades, The Inquisition and other such barbarities, doesn't that make it as evil as - say - a sweet tasting poison?

Also, isn't Christianity as Christians do, not as they say?
 
Re: Christianity = Evil?

martinhpage said:
If an ethical system is so badly drafted that it can be used to justify pogroms, crusades, The Inquisition and other such barbarities, doesn't that make it as evil as - say - a sweet tasting poison?

Also, isn't Christianity as Christians do, not as they say?

Yes - that's pretty much what I said (or at least intended to) - the very central message is tolerance and benevolence. It's in the application that things go wrong.

See threads such as "Jesus Christ - the only son of God" for a goodly discussion on how the Bible may have lost a lot in translation over the years.
 
A more fascinating question to me personally is not what psychological aspects create evil, but whether it is an external force rather than a product of psychology. Is it something that passes briefly though or resides permanently within us, then moves on once its work is done. Then we start and get into the realms of demonic possession or whatever the current buzzword is.
I'm reminded of an interview with Albert Kirby, the head of the investigation into the murder of toddler James Bulger, who when asked what he thought happened that day (the inevitable question "why?" he simply replied "Something evil visited us that day." That may be his way of rationalising something most of us cannot understand, but intrigued me from a man who must have seen plenty of vicious acts in his career.
I'm not saying I believe acts like that are more than a mixture of events and bad chemistry, but the idea is intriguing.
 
I don't think there is an external force of evil, surely it's a concept of human consciousness? Perhaps our awareness of our own mortality produces a fear of the blackness of nonexistence, the unknown (goodness is always light, warmth, the sun etc. and evil darkness, and pain etc.). Were people like hitler, stalin, shipman, the killers of james bulger evil? Is it a case of scale? Was hitler more evil than a person that commits a single murder? Whatever, I don't think a force from beyond our own world made them do these things, but i would describe their acts as evil, whatever the cause or their justification. I am not religious but i regard transgression of human rights as in the charter as evil acts. Problem is, the very concept of evil for many people today is old fashioned and out of date.
 
At the risk of completely derailing this thread, I would say that encouraging people to believe in some stuff in an old book without asking any questions, is pretty much a bad thing, no matter how benevolent the central message of that book is. Which I don't think it is. The bible is mostly about hatred so far as I can tell.
 
Also - as another slight aside - I seem to remeber that Socrates argued that no person could ever intentionally commit an evil act - all acts which others may deem as evil had their root in the ignorance of the person committing the act.

To commit an evil act harms oneself and, as no one would wish to harm oneself, the act could only be carried out due to ignorance of the end result.

See, it was all sorted out 2,400 years ago.................
 
Personally I believe that we make our own Demons. Each of us has our own 'darkness' hidden away inside our psyche that we can sometimes externalise but frequently don't. This is that little bit of ourselves that manifests in rage, jealousy and other negative emotions; it's the part of us that knows hate, inspires violence, and directs it outwards against others.

Most of us ignore it although some, like scitzophrenics (sp!), are unable to do so and frequently mistake it for some external force. An unfortunate number allow themselves to be ruled by it and commit terrible acts in it's name. Released it becomes a ravaging force which is truely birthed in our nightmares.

Thus comes Evil. Born in the dark abyss of the Id it seeks destruction, of itself and of all it surveys. Allowed to reign unchecked it brings madness, disaster, injury and death. It is our true enemy, it is the Beast of legend and it is all too human.

Niles "Has stared into the Abyss and poked it in the eye" Calder
 
Good and evil are relative to your veiwpoint. Hitler probably never considered himself an evil man and I'm fairly sure Osama thinks he did a good thing. Although they both set out to commit their crimes and this makes them evil in our eyes.
Yet I am reminded that if Hitler had won the war he would have been hailed as a hero and forward thinker. Kind of makes you glad he lost.
 
Hindley was just a woman who got her kicks from torturing children, in the same way that Brady did. There was no external or internal mysterious force of 'evil' possessing her. She was an adult responsible for her own actions just as I am and was able to make the choice to kill powerless humans to please her boyfriend and herself.

It's an easy get-out to blame 'evil', whatever that means, for atrocities which almost anyone might commit, given the circumstances. It gets us off the hook- 'they' are 'evil' and 'we' are not.

And if anyone wants an example of what I consider closest to evil, then I might mention Mother Theresa. Her Catholic order forbade her nurses & volunteers to offer advice on contraceptive or AIDS prevention and her patients were denied the basic comforts, eg a mattress on the floor instead of a rug, because suffering was good for their souls. I wouldn't call her evil though- more misguided, stubborn, arrogant, inhumane.
 
Evil to me seems to be a matter of context/perspective and trend, based on instinctive belief. I believe that the idea of evil and good are evolutions of the basic concepts that drove us through survival as apes, i.e. something is good or bad (as ina degree of 'like') - food=good, predator=bad. These concepts are built in merely for survival.

Now with a greater range of understanding of the world, a good deal more experioence and knowledge, our intellects try to reconcile our instincts, and impose justifications for the way we feel. We refer to things that we really don't like as evil and things we need or love as 'good'. The grey areas come when our intellect expands upon our instinct and finds no solid ground for either case. For example above, it is mentioned that violence is a negative and therefore an evil act. I would say it is a primal act that was much required for our survival and evolution and could not possibly have been evil then, so how can it now? From a moralistic point of view violence is intolerable but it is not evil, just the current state of belief that our society (and I as an individual) follow.

I think the mere case that we can inconclusively argue about whether a simple subject as murder is an act of evil is proof that it is just a matter of psyche and the intellect, and has no basis in the real world.

Well that's just an opinion ....

I reserve the right to be wrong and change my opinion at any time ..
 
escargot said:
Hindley was just a woman who got her kicks from torturing children, in the same way that Brady did. There was no external or internal mysterious force of 'evil' possessing her. She was an adult responsible for her own actions just as I am and was able to make the choice to kill powerless humans to please her boyfriend and herself.

As I pointed out on the Hindley thread, her own therapist was quoted as saying 'She used to be evil but isn't anymore'

This raises two questions.

1) What is a qualified therapist doing describing one of his patients as 'evil'. and what exactly does he mean by that? Is he making a clinical diagnosis there? If not, what grounds are there for taking his opinion as in any way expert if he resorts to such superstitious medievalisms.

2)Is it possible to stop being evil? Surely this suggests that the evil that men do is engineered by some outside entity? And I don't mean 'Is someone mentally ill capable of being cured?'
 
Evil is a pretty subjective concept, and your perception of it is pretty much to do with how you're conditioned in your formative years, according to the laws of the day. You only have to look at what we perceive as the bizarre and perhaps evil doings in various cultures around the world to see that we instantly judge something automatically according to what we taught to believe.

Take for instance the well documented levels of infanticide (I can dig out the relevant source info anyone wants it) in some African tribes. Newborns are killed out of necessity to prevent a drain on sparse resources. Is this an evil act?

Is it any different to what members of these tribes would think of us pouring precious water down the plughole after having a nice long bath? Okay, you can say that human life and water are not comparable, but only to us. To them, water means life, and could be considered more precious that a single human life.

In some societies, what we perceive as the most heinous crimes are considered to be the norm. "But these are backwards societies!" you may shout, ah.. judge not lest ye be judged. Everyone is open to criticism, even us, maybe from a tribe who spend their lives in mud huts eating earwigs.

The list of relative comparisons is endless.

It'd be interesting to raise a child to read and write and interact, but to not allow them to be open to any kind of conditioning moral input, and see what they think about the world when they are allowed to emerge. Would they run around killing people and feasting on intestines, or would they be the most compassionate human on Earth?

This difference in moral standards and rules of micro and macrosociety is the only thing that gives us a definition of good and evil.
 
I've read a few times that if you encounter "real" evil then you're left in no doubt that evil exists as a force completely independent of the thinker's brain.

Personally, I never subscribed to this theory, but a couple of months ago I changed my mind because of a dream I had. In the dream I was in the kitchen of a house that was suffering a demonic infestation. A heavy wooden table lifted into the air and split apart, and the whole room seemed to be "thick" with the essence of evil. It was just as clear to me that I was experiencing evil as it would be that I was experiencing heat if I stuck my hand into boiling water. In my dream I wasn't afraid, just awestruck. The evil wasn't anything like an emotion, rather an unmistakable and incredibly strong external sensation. I actually remember thinking, in the dream, something like "Damn, so evil really DOES exist!"

When I woke I didn't think much of it, because it was just a dream. But then I realised that even though it was a dream, I had to have used my brain to imagine the sensation of evil, and that means that there must be a part of my brain that can recognise evil. Which, to my mind, proves that evil must be a genuine, independent entity.

Hmmm... reading what I've written I can see it doesn't really convey my point very well. I'm not saying that I DID experience evil, but that there can be no doubt that I possess the faculty to detect evil in the same way I can detect pressure or pain or cold - i.e. that it has to be external rather than imagined. And because evolution has never been found to produce superfluous functions in organisms, this leads to some interesting questions about the Devil, God and the Holy Spirit.

Just thought I'd mention it...
 
I wouldn't agree with that last point; I don't believe in any of those three. Evil, I'm not so sure about. Stupidity, greed and hate I've seen plenty of. Perversion and pointless violence, too. Evil? I've yet to meet it, but I won't discount it.
 
Having seen what's been going on in Iraq in the past, I think there's not much doubt about the existence of evil.
 
Most things we consider 'evil' are done by humans because of fear more than anything else. I think there are two types; 'evil' is just a mark on a sliding scale of badness but 'Evil' is something else. I think I've seen the former, but not the latter, not the type that this thread is about.
 
Yes, to clarify, I'm talking about Evil not evil.

My point about God etc. was that if Evil exists then so must Good, and because very few people - even devout Christians - really believe that God is an old bloke with a beard or the Devil is a horned guy in a suit then it lays religion open to some interpretation.
 
Personally, I'm afraid that I believe in neither Good nor Evil, just people :(
 
Back
Top