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Evil

If these are objective entities then why the bi-polarism? Hero and nemesis, good and evil are human concepts. If such entities exist then it is feasible to presume there is a whole range of them and 'Good' and 'Evil' are too simplistic and biased labels.

I would much prefer to analyse such possibilities by referring to the entities as Frank, Bob, Maude etc and then investigate the traits of those entities as seperate to the entities themselves (given that they exist that is). If we don't do that then we risk losing any understanding or perspective of the phenomena, which for all we know may just be an adverse reaction to a harmless alien, environmental stress or ultrasonic frequency.

In terms of the bullying example, are you not trying to justify the child's actions by externalising the cause. It gives you greater comfort to imagine an external 'Evil' influence than to accept the spitefullness of such an 'innocent', does it not?
 
Sorry I was unclear about that. The child wasn't being evil it was ME that was the Evil one shaking up the human bullies! I was trying to put myself in Evil's place.

About Good and Evil being human concepts. I never understand how people get that. Good and Evil have come about, it seems to me, as a reaction to the paranormal activity - visualisations or hallucinations of the virgin mary or christ or hallucinations of the devil, etc. People took these concepts and put them into the bible from these frightening paranormal events and used human action as its SYMPTOM. Not the other way around.

I would argue that most people are amazingly boring creatures. Can you honestly say that you have around you at the moment a rich variety of humans so that the worst you know fills you with utter dread and fear and helplessness and then gradations from that point all the way through to another that fills you with utter bliss and happiness and completeness in perfection? Even your partner has faults! I'll bet you know a lot of 'middling ones' instead. Most people live mundane and mediocre lives or even if they live exciting ones they tend not to leave a legacy of inspiration to others as their excitement is confined to personal gratification, etc. So where does this hero/villain come through most powerfully? The original starting point. Some villains commit crime to feed their starving baby so it's not so clear. Some heroes do it to impress - hardly perfection. I'm not saying hero's and villains don't exist but I don't see that we can say Good and Evil are human concepts whereas I do believe good and evil CAN be.

I think that Good and Evil do exist but that isn't to say that there isn't a gamut of entities or spirits that fall between the two (that's US physically and our spirit/souls after death, by the way) that can be swayed by either of these dimensions on either side.
What do you reckon?
 
Sorry I was unclear about that. The child wasn't being evil it was ME that was the Evil one shaking up the human bullies! I was trying to put myself in Evil's place.

So you WANTING to shake a bully is just you wanting to shake a bully. You ACTUALLY shaking a bully is in fact Evil shaking a bully. And you IMAGINING yourself shaking a bully is you putting yourself in Evil's place?

Do you see where I get the idea that the human mind externalises what it doesn't like?
You can handle wanting to shake the bully, because you know it's wrong and you have made the correct decision not to. You can't imagine yourself actually shaking the bully, and so externalise and imagine Evil doing it instead. You then have to place yourself in the position of Evil to try to understand what it is and so justify it, but the reality is you are trying to justify your own construct, in the third person, whilst at the same time witnessing yourself in the first person? This then becomes impossible and a lack of understanding ensues. :confused:
 
Oh dear, this is terrible. I'm not explaining myself at all.

I'm not saying that my motives are anything at all.

When I used the example of the playground it was supposed to make it clearer but I've made it all fuzzy.

What I meant to say is this

We are the kids in the playground and we think we know everything. We bully eachother, we are nice to eachother, we share our crisps, we are mean and gossipy too but there's this one kid that kind of goes too far and thinks he knows everything and is a bit overbearing but hey, that's what happens in playgrounds. Some of us believe in the bogey-monster (or boogie-man to americans) and we are nervous and scared but it's daytime and we're all together so we feel happy that the world is science-based and everything is fine and carry on being mean and nice in equal measure until this unknown thing...this big scarey person for lack of a better word in our infantile world...comes along and scares the hell out of us and puts us in our places. When the big scary thing has gone we don't know why he was there or what he wanted with us but we are all a bit subdued until we rationalise that the sun is shining and we're all together and he's gone away now so we can carry on being mean and nice in equal measure.

So you see that's the scenario I meant to paint but got it all wrong. I was trying to explain what I think is the motive behind Evil in our modern world and that is to shake us arrogant bastards up a bit and scare the hell out of us for a laugh because we know NOTHING but think we can control everything. That's how I see evil. I put it into everyday terms because of the simple reason that it's easier to explain how I, personally, see all this paranormal stuff. It's a big tease. It's provocative and you can never quite get the PROOF you need, it's just in our peripheral vision and it's staying there no matter how hard we look. Human motivations will always be human but there is something ELSE that is beyond our understanding that is playing us for fools!!!

Sorry for the confusion.
 
If you look into the paranormal literature, you'll find that the people who have *really* looked into the phenomena and *really* took time to evaluate the evidence, don't tend to conform to the idea that there are categories of Paranormal, but rather that there is "something bigger" going on that spans everything from ghosts and UFOs to cryptids and possession. Keel and Fort believe(d) it is an insane god-like entity, Vallee that it is probably a conditioning exercise, Wilson (Colin) that he's not too sure but it ain't simply aliens and spooks!
 
I'm with you there!

Am a big supporter of Keel, and of Hough who goes along the same lines only doesn't see them as neutral ultra-terrestrials but subscribes to the believe that they are the very beings we think of as the anti-christ!!! So sort of similar.
 
Eye Witness For The Prosecution
As to people all seeing the same (UFO) event, yet seeing quite different things. Firstly, you've only got to read the witness testimonies, given after a perfectly normal cross section of people have been witness to a car crash, or a bank robbery, to know that this is a perfectly normal state of affairs.

People remember different details and even seem to see completely different events. That's just folks.

Mass Hallucination - Individual Recollection
If such an event, an UFO, or paranormal sighting, is some sort of hallucination, then it might well be that although something occurred, perhaps psychically, then at least part of the visualisation of that event will be drawn from the life experience and memory of the individual witnesses, so they might all think they saw something quite different. This would not require 'Evil' intent.

Raven, Robin Goodfellow and Anansi
Many cultures suggest that there might well be a Trickster element at work in the World. Sometimes the acts of the Trickster are perceived as ambiguous, sometimes malign and sometimes even benign. Although the Trickster is often capricious, the Trickster is often seen as an important Ancestor of humanity, and as a teacher. Just because Something might be teasing us, doesn't necessarily make it bad.

Religions Have Their Own Sort Of Polarisation: The Saved And The Damned
The extremes of Good and Evil mentioned earlier, seem to be quite modern inventions, quite Judeo-Christian-Islamic, where absolute certainties, and win, or lose salvations, seem to be the order of the day. Zoarostrianism and absolutist Eastern models of Kingship and Empire (i.e. Pharaonic, Caesarian, etc.), seem to have been amongst the influences. Other, older cultures have less absolute definitions of good and evil, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
 
I understand what you are saying about the trickster business.

I didn't say that only Evil exists! I was saying that I believe there is something around us that could be called Evil as opposed to the human-type evil and opposed to the ultra-terrestrials(which Hough thinks is Evil).

I said that I believe there may be many things between Evil and Good and perhaps these trickster elements, as you call them, may fall between the two.

What I'm fearful of is that ALL of them may be the Evil thing - afterall nothing 'sinful' or 'Evil' would be tempting if it frightened us off first time - some people have gone mad dabbling with the occult (and no, I'm NOT saying they were completely sane to start with, I'm just giving an example of what some might see as 'sinful' or 'Evil' as opposed to human-crime evil, I wouldn't want to be accused of reducing things to human-concepts again!) The point about temptation being that if we view them as superior intelligences trying to 'teach' us something then we may be 'worshipping false idols' for want of better words!!

As for people seeing different things in road traffic accidents or other similar incidents where many people may bring their own experiences to the stimulus - Okay. Good point. But the reason why I chose to mention SPECIFICALLY policemen, commercial pilots and MILITARY pilots (in particular) is because these are witnesses that are taught how to deal with very stressful situations, and indeed are weeded out if they cannot handle it, and they know that in a situation that warrants a full report of an arial anomaly that the CORRECT OBSERVATION is of VITAL importance to defence superiors. They know that they will have to give separate reports and that any discrepancies may be attributed to mis-identification or to observational error and these men do not want their visual or mental accuity called into question when their livelihoods are at stake, nevermind national security for the military pilots.

They must give ACCURATE description of shape, colour, velocity, angle of descend/ascent, and they are not going to fall for angle of sight misinterpretations, neither are they going to become hysterical, so why does one see a diamond and one a sphere?need I say more?...

What, exactly, are these things teaching people? If the purpose of alien abduction is to teach some women that they can be taken in the night and have alien foetuses implanted into their bodies/retrieved, or raped by frightening looking hybrids, or that menstruating women may be attracting the Mothman or Chupacabras because hey, some things just like blood, or that we ought to believe in the Devil because it's good to feel utter terror/loathing or that it's a good thing that many people experiencing these things marriages fail, have complete nervous breakdowns and become laughing stocks or objects of fear and loathing, or worship their fears as guardian angels with the trusting simplicity of abused children toward an abuser, then they're doing one hell of a good job aren't they?

Nice lesson in life indeed. If they went straight for the sceptics I'd have more respect for their intentions but I'm sorry, as long as they keep picking on these little guys who's brains just go 'pop' because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time then I'll continue to believe they are Evil. Capital E.
 
Nice thread Desp :)

Know exactly what you mean.

A good account is found at the beginning of Fergal Keane's book on Rwanda (apologies for forgetting the title - somthing like ''Season of Blood''). He encountered a photo-journalist who has just returned from the field, drunk and very emotional, talked on and on about ''Spiritual Corrosion''.

Keane goes, sees, agrees.

Reading about the Rwandan genocide gave me the sense of gazing into the pit, while the pit gazed into me.

I go with Keane's definition: Evil - that which corrodes the soul, consuming it, leaving a dark hole where a person once was.

For further information, try Joseph Conrad & TS Eliot



:(
 
I suppose to return to first principles here, we must first ask, what do you mean by Evil?

The Evil of Social ills may not be the Evil of the Old Testament for example. Bush's Evil may not be Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei's Evil.

I would still tend to look at it in terms of subjectivity.

For example, in extremely stressful times, rats have been know to rape and kill their own, does this mean that rats are evil?

By the same token our own treatment of animals may make us appear to them as evil, but we see it as meat, food etc.

While I think there is a propensity for viciousness in human behaviour, I hardly think we can blame it on some external self sustaining forces and call it Evil.

And Alexius referring to Conrad is probbaly the very best example of it. Kurtz descends into savagery and viciousness and drags the local populace with him. He cris out for the horror he has seen, but I would support the traditional view that the the horror he has seen is the horror within. He let himself be corrupted by the power. As such, he gave full reign to his own baser desires and so the horror he beolds is that of his own nature. Is this evil? No.

LD
 
Is a force beyond our control necessarily physically beyond? The charcters in 'Heart of Darkness'' enter an environment that catalyses something inside - something beyond their control, that they resist with great effort (in the case of Marlowe) or submit to (in the case of pretty much everybody else, and of course spectacularly Kurtz).

Reflecting upon the nature of that environment, a common feature does seem to emerge as one flips from case to case. This spiritual implosion appears to occur in situations when normative morality is suspended or overwritten, releasing folk from any sense of personal responsibility or the fear of retribution.

Grim reading though it is, a perusal of some of the better literature regarding the Einsatzgruppen is particularly illuminating (and chilling). Contrary to expectation, personnel were generally of above average intelligence, educated and 'respectable' by the standards of the day. In fact, pains where taken to ensure that they were such. The shift towards mechanised genocide began to occur when the gruppen started breaking down under the strain - instances of alchoholism, depression and suicide began to become routine. On the other hand, their where those who derived pleasure from their work, posing for photographs amidst the outcome.

Those doors in the psyche having been thrown open, some willing stepped through, others struggled on the threshold. Others passed through when the abnormal became normal through aquaintence.

Does this make evil subjective? If it is the unconscious we are speaking of, then surely that is objective in the sense of being beyond the circle of consciousness.
 
Alexius

I would tend to agree with you here, but I still think that if it is within, then it is within the realms of possibility to control. As such, Evil is not something that exists in and of itself. Without humans there would be no Evil


To return to your point about the Einsatzgruppen, yes it is true that their level of education was good and they were considered cultured, and yet it is often among the so called middle calsses that the greatest instances of stress due to conformity if discovered. Many theorists have suggested that it is a backlash against this so called conformity that produces the greatest atrocities during times when normal moraility is suspended, as in war.



LD
 
There is an Old English riddle - 'What is yet is not'

A shadow.

Which I guess is part of the problem with evil. Sense tells me to accept the negative, Boethien defintion of evil as nullity, the absense of virtue, but still it lies there, something tangible to the senses. Perhaps it is partly linguistic - in attaching a name to it, it has become an artefact of the mind, and thus real, encounterable. And again, in a real sense objective, albeit man-made.

At this point, the semioticians in our midst swoop ;)

But clingfilm....blows all this down, Andro - the only way to accomodate clingfilm, dog-poo and Chris Tarrent is to embrace Manichaenism :p
 
Hello,

I have felt absolute evil.
It was in the form of a drunk, middle-aged man, in Quincy Massachusetts.
He taunted me, and two friends. Called us 'Dikes' and 'Witches' and attempted to chase us to the station.
This may sound so simple; oh, she was chased by a drunk, is what I would expect anyone to think.
But, this man emanated an evil so strong that I, someone who is great under pressure and who has entered many a haunted house without flinching, felt my legs weaken, my heart palpitated and I was covered in an invisible darkness that made the sky seem darker than usual...and I am telling you, I was more afraid than any other time in my life.
This man actually compelled me to work the sign of the cross.
To this day (that happened 4 years ago), I don't go to Quincy. I don't care if I have an abcess on my tooth and the only dentist available is there. I don't care if a million dollars was waiting for me in Quincy. I won't go, because I have felt true evil and I think that dude was a damn demon!

WW
 
a few years ago, i was walking down a street in the city centre, and i saw a man getting out of a car. he was kind of short, stocky, dark curly hair, and piercing blue eyes. and for some reason he scared the living shit out of me. that is the only time i have experienced anything like that, and it was an overwhelming sense of evil, but does that prove that evil exists?
 
Alexius said:
... Perhaps it is partly linguistic - in attaching a name to it, it has become an artefact of the mind, and thus real, encounterable. And again, in a real sense objective, albeit man-made.
It's a human thing, isn't it - give something a name, a face even, it becomes less scary, because it rules out what it is not, at least to the primitive, instinctive part of our brain. It's uncertainty that we're really frightened of, and I think that may be a primitive reaction, that forces us to try and seek the nature of what we're facing (hence the initial attraction of horror movies and roller coasters and extreme sports - once you've faced them, they're no longer intimidating in quite the same way). It's also the reason that the 1963 version of The Haunting is 100x scarier than the remake, because you see precisely nothing.

Similarly, if for example, you hear about a train wreck, and there's a strong likelihood that someone you care about was aboard: you call their mobile phone, and it just rings, no answer - that feeling would be ten times worse than them answering and saying they'd been hurt, or even than a paramedic or police officer answering and saying they were injured - at least then you'd know, and have some idea of how to deal with it. It's the not-knowing that really scares us.
 
Perhaps an essential factor in fear is helplessness. Evil frightens because we feel it can overwhelm us - if we conceive of evil as an absense of some quality, it lacks that sense of dread. Positive evil seems to possess greater force.

Perhaps the Manichean and Boetian views are not exclusive - maybe evil exists as both the lack of virtue and the possession of malevolence. The former seems rather tame compared to the knee-buckling presense of the latter.

In a similar vein, I wish I could say hate was merely the absense of love...but hate can also feel tangible and overwhelming. And profoundly corrupting.
 
the bit by chockfullahate about the guy with the piercing eyes is interesting. the old quote has it that the eyes are the window of the soul, and sometimes you can come across some people who seem to have no depth or feeling in their eyes whatsoever. that can be very unnerving. is evil then a lack of soul?
 
Hello Everyone,

A co-worker asked me to relay an experience he had back in college. He says he was studying late in his dorm and the TV was on, because his roomate apparently left it on a game or whatever...he does not remember. He was quitting for the night so he closed his books and stretched out on his bed. The TV was on a shelf directly across from him and he was compelled to look directly at it to which he saw a face staring at him rather blankly from within the television. He got up and grabbed a chair, stood on it and tried to get a better look at the TV and he says that the background (behind the face) was static, as if the station had gone off but he could not hear that 'CHCHCHCHCHCH' sound. It was oddly quiet he said. No voices in the hall. Nothing and the face was in technicolor almost and still staring at him. He says, he leaned to the right and the face followed and then he leaned to the left and it followed again. Finally he leaned back and the face came entirely out of the television and straight at him. He says the head was not connected to a body but it reminded him of the scene in THE ABYSS where the water turns in Mary Elizabeth Mastroiantonias (sp?) face but with an elongated head that leads toward a snake-like body. He saw no body however.
When the head went toward him, he fell back and off the chair and hit his elbow hard (to which he explains it still locks on him occasionally) and the face lowered itself until it was a few inches from his face and then he began to feel an unbelievable fear, whereas before he felt nothing of the sort, just awe. The face began to stretch and contort until it resembled one of the demonc faces from THE DEVILS ADVOCATE (these are his explanations of course).
He says he screamed and shielded his face to which he heard a noise much like someone zipping up their fly and when he felt the fear subside, he looked to find that the face was gone and the TV once again was playing a basketball game.
He describes the face as androgynous with no discernible features to suggest male or female. There were no eyebrows or eyelashes. The lips were very thing and the forehead was extremely wide. The nose was very small with two reptilian-like slits and he says the face was orangey and resembled what he assumes a komodo dragon would look like if it were crossed with a human.
The key thing about this experience is that he had no feelings, good or bad toward the thing until just before it's face changed. He says he went from shock to utter horror and that the thing emanated an evil prior to transformation.
It makes me wonder if the feeling of evil set in because the thing approached him, which would suggest that evil is more of a perception based on fear, OR, if the thing itself emanated an evil aura-like quality, because than that would mean that just as good people can make you feel good and emanate a warmth, evil things can emanate a feeling of absolute dread that is perhaps a quality only something truly nasty can possess.
He finishes this off by telling me not to use his name. As if.

WW
 
He was quitting for the night so he closed his books and stretched out on his bed

That seems like a key factor, a bad dream perhaps.
 
For the Worst of Us, the Diagnosis May Be 'Evil'

By BENEDICT CAREY

Published: February 8, 2005

Predatory killers often do far more than commit murder. Some have lured their victims into homemade chambers for prolonged torture. Others have exotic tastes - for vivisection, sexual humiliation, burning. Many perform their grisly rituals as much for pleasure as for any other reason.

Among themselves, a few forensic scientists have taken to thinking of these people as not merely disturbed but evil. Evil in that their deliberate, habitual savagery defies any psychological explanation or attempt at treatment.

Most psychiatrists assiduously avoid the word evil, contending that its use would precipitate a dangerous slide from clinical to moral judgment that could put people on death row unnecessarily and obscure the understanding of violent criminals.

Still, many career forensic examiners say their work forces them to reflect on the concept of evil, and some acknowledge they can find no other term for certain individuals they have evaluated.

In an effort to standardize what makes a crime particularly heinous, a group at New York University has been developing what it calls a depravity scale, which rates the horror of an act by the sum of its grim details.

And a prominent personality expert at Columbia University has published a 22-level hierarchy of evil behavior, derived from detailed biographies of more than 500 violent criminals.

He is now working on a book urging the profession not to shrink from thinking in terms of evil when appraising certain offenders, even if the E-word cannot be used as part of an official examination or diagnosis.

"We are talking about people who commit breathtaking acts, who do so repeatedly, who know what they're doing, and are doing it in peacetime" under no threat to themselves, said Dr. Michael Stone, the Columbia psychiatrist, who has examined several hundred killers at Mid-Hudson Psychiatric Center in New Hampton, N.Y., and others at Creedmoor Psychiatric Center in Queens, where he consults and teaches. "We know from experience who these people are, and how they behave," and it is time, he said, to give their behavior "the proper appellation."

Western religious leaders, evolutionary theorists and psychological researchers agree that almost all human beings have the capacity to commit brutal acts, even when they are not directly threatened. In Dr. Stanley Milgram's famous electroshock experiments in the 1960's, participants delivered what they thought were punishing electric jolts to a fellow citizen, merely because they were encouraged to do so by an authority figure as part of a learning experiment.

In the real world, the grim images coming out of Iraq -the beheadings by Iraqi insurgents and the Abu Ghraib tortures, complete with preening guards - suggest how much further people can go when they feel justified.

In Nazi prisoner camps, as during purges in Kosovo and Cambodia, historians found that clerks, teachers, bureaucrats and other normally peaceable citizens committed some of the gruesome violence, apparently swept along in the kind of collective thoughtlessness that the philosopher Hannah Arendt described as the banality of evil.

"Evil is endemic, it's constant, it is a potential in all of us. Just about everyone has committed evil acts," said Dr. Robert I. Simon, a clinical professor of psychiatry at Georgetown Medical School and the author of "Bad Men Do What Good Men Dream."

Dr. Simon considers the notion of evil to be of no use to forensic psychiatry, in part because evil is ultimately in the eye of the beholder, shaped by political and cultural as well as religious values. The terrorists on Sept. 11 thought that they were serving God, he argues; those who kill people at abortion clinics also claim to be doing so. If the issue is history's most transcendent savages, on the other hand, most people agree that Hitler and Pol Pot would qualify.

"When you start talking about evil, psychiatrists don't know anything more about it than anyone else," Dr. Simon said. "Our opinions might carry more weight, under the patina or authority of the profession, but the point is, you can call someone evil and so can I. So what? What does it add?"

----------------
Dr. Stone argues that one possible benefit of including a consideration of evil may be a more clear-eyed appreciation of who should be removed from society and not allowed back. He is not an advocate of the death penalty, he said. And his interest in evil began long before President Bush began using the word to describe terrorists or hostile regimes.

Dr. Stone's hierarchy of evil is topped by the names of many infamous criminals who were executed or locked up for good: Theodore R. Bundy, the former law school student convicted of killing two young women in Florida and linked to dozens of other killings in the 1970's; John Wayne Gacy of Illinois, the convicted killer who strangled more than 30 boys and buried them under his house; and Ian Brady who, with his girlfriend, Myra Hindley, tortured and killed children in England in a rampage in the 1960's known as the moors murders.

But another killer on the hierarchy is Albert Fentress, a former schoolteacher in Poughkeepsie, N.Y., examined by Dr. Stone, who killed and cannibalized a teenager, in 1979. Mr. Fentress petitioned to be released from a state mental hospital, and in 1999 a jury agreed that he was ready; he later withdrew the petition, when prosecutors announced that a new witness would testify against him.

At a hearing in 2001, Dr. Stone argued against Mr. Fentress's release, and the idea that the killer might be considered ready to make his way back into society still makes the psychiatrist's eyes widen.

Researchers have found that some people who commit violent crimes are much more likely than others to kill or maim again, and one way they measure this potential is with a structured examination called the psychopathy checklist.

As part of an extensive, in-depth interview, a trained examiner rates the offender on a 20-item personality test. The items include glibness and superficial charm, grandiose self-worth, pathological lying, proneness to boredom and emotional vacuity. The subjects earn zero points if the description is not applicable, two points if it is highly applicable, and one if it is somewhat or sometimes true.

The psychologist who devised the checklist, Dr. Robert Hare, a professor emeritus at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver, said that average total scores varied from below five in the general population to the low 20's in prison populations, to a range of 30 to 40 - highly psychopathic - in predatory killers. In a series of studies, criminologists have found that people who score in the high range are two to four times as likely as other prisoners to commit another crime when released. More than 90 percent of the men and a few women at the top of Dr. Stone's hierarchy qualify as psychopaths.

In recent years, neuroscientists have found evidence that psychopathy scores reflect physical differences in brain function. Last April, Canadian and American researchers reported in a brain-imaging study that psychopaths processed certain abstract words - grace, future, power, for example - differently from nonpsychopaths.

In addition, preliminary findings from new imaging research have revealed apparent oddities in the way psychopaths mentally process certain photographs, like graphic depictions of accident scenes, said Dr. Kent Kiehl, an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Yale, a lead author on both studies.

No one knows how significant these differences are, or whether they are a result of genetic or social factors. Broken homes and childhood trauma are common among brutal killers; so is malignant narcissism, a personality type characterized not only by grandiosity but by fantasies of unlimited power and success, a deep sense of entitlement, and a need for excessive admiration.

"There is a group we call lethal predators, who are psychopathic, sadistic, and sane, and people have said this is approaching a measure of evil, and with good reason," Dr. Hare said. "What I would say is that there are some people for whom evil acts - what we would consider evil acts - are no big deal. And I agree with Michael Stone that the circumstances and context are less important than who they are."

-------------
Checklists, scales, and other psychological exams are not blood tests, however, and their use in support of a concept as loaded as evil could backfire, many psychiatrists say. Not all violent predators are psychopaths, for one thing, nor are most psychopaths violent criminals. And to suggest that psychopathy or some other profile is a reliable measure of evil, they say, would be irresponsible and ultimately jeopardize the credibility of the profession.

In the 1980's and 1990's, a psychiatrist in Dallas earned the name Dr. Death by testifying in court, in a wide variety of cases, that he was certain that defendants would commit more crimes in the future - though often, he had not examined them. Many were sentenced to death.

"I agree that some people cannot be rehabilitated, but the risk in using the word evil is that it may mean one thing to one psychiatrist, and something else to another, and then we're in trouble, " said Dr. Saul Faerstein, a forensic psychiatrist in Beverly Hills. "I don't know that we want psychiatrists as gatekeepers, making life-and-death judgments in some cases, based on a concept that is not medical."

Even if it is used judiciously, other experts say, the concept of evil is powerful enough that it could obscure the mental troubles and intellectual quirks that motivate brutal killers, and sometimes allow them to avoid detection. Mr. Bundy, the serial killer, was reportedly very romantic, attentive and affectionate with his own girlfriends, while he referred to his victims as "cargo" and "damaged goods," Dr. Simon noted.

Mr. Gacy, a gracious and successful businessman, reportedly created a clown figure to lift the spirits of ailing children. "He was a very normal, very functional guy in many respects," said Dr. Richard Rappaport, a forensic psychiatrist based in La Costa, Calif., who examined Mr. Gacy before his trial. Dr. Rappaport said he received holiday cards from Mr. Gacy every year before he was executed.

"I think the main reason it's better to avoid the term evil, at least in the courtroom, is that for many it evokes a personalized Satan, the idea that there is supernatural causation for misconduct," said Dr. Park Dietz, a forensic psychiatrist in Newport Beach, Calif., who examined the convicted serial murderer Jeffrey Dahmer, as well as Lyle and Erik Menendez, who were convicted of murdering their parents in Beverly Hills.

"This could only conceal a subtle important truth about many of these people, such as the high rate of personality disorders," Dr. Dietz said. He added: "The fact is that there aren't many in whom I couldn't find some redeeming attributes and some humanity. As far as we can tell, the causes of their behavior are biological, psychological and social, and do not so far demonstrably include the work of Lucifer."

The doctors who argue that evil has a place in forensics are well aware of these risks, but say that in some cases they are worth taking. They say it is possible - necessary, in fact, to understand many predatory killers - to hold inside one's head many disparate dimensions: that the person in question may be narcissistic, perhaps abused by a parent, or even charming, affectionate and intelligent, but also in some sense evil. While the term may not be appropriate for use in a courtroom or a clinical diagnosis, they say, it is an element of human nature that should not be ignored.

Dr. Angela Hegarty, director of psychiatry at Creedmoor who works with Dr. Stone, said she was skeptical of using the concept of evil but realized that in her work she found herself thinking and talking about it all the time. In 11 years as a forensic examiner, in this country and in Europe, she said, she counts four violent criminals who were so vicious, sadistic and selfish that no other word could describe them.

One was a man who gruesomely murdered his own wife and young children and who showed more annoyance than remorse, more self-pity than concern for anyone else affected by the murders. On one occasion when Dr. Hegarty saw him, he was extremely upset - beside himself - because a staff attendant at the facility where he lived was late in arriving with a video, delaying the start of the movie. The man became abusive, she said: he insisted on punctuality.

Source
 
If you look at it from a linguistic viewpoint, a thing or person can be evil, or act in an evil manner, but evil is rarely ever a noun. Even then it's simply being mis-used! Evil is an adverb or sometimes an adjective, which makes it descriptive of a person or their behaviour. Evil exists, just as good exists - but it is a type of behaviour. It's rather like the NRA slogan: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Evil doesn't just exist, free floating, people do evil things.

All that aside, people are responsible for their actions, good or evil, so it becomes hard to separate the action from the instigator. The exception would be the mentally ill, but if they are acting in an evil manner they should be restrained (voluntarily or involuntarily), so they cannot commit evil actions against their fellow human beings.
 
Fallen Angel ~ Your NRA slogan analogy reminded me of a personal experience:

My dad was an avid gun collector and on his death I inherited about fifty assorted rifles and handguns. I sold most but kept maybe ten of his favorites out of some sort of respect for his legacy. I stored the guns and some ammo in a locked safe for awhile. Then I started thinking I might as well load the guns and hide them around the house (just in case!). So I did. I spent a lot of time imagining intruders breaking into the house as a means of figuring out where to best hide all my loaded guns. I decided to hide one under the mattress too, just in case my then boyfriend suddenly 'turned' on me (impossible btw as he is a lovely person whom I've since married). Then I put a loaded pistol in my car (legal) to protect myself in parking lots. Then I began carrying the pistol into work (illegal since I didn't have a permit) so I would have it in my pocket for later when I had to walk out to my car at around three in the morning.

One day I was dashing into the grocery store and I thought this woman (with two children in tow!) had given me a dirty look. I became unreasonably enraged over this and imagined going back to my car, getting my pistol and shooting her in the kneecaps! In my mind, I felt great satisfaction as I watched her writhe in pain on the ground, blood gushing from her knees while her children hovered over her crying "Mommy!". No sooner had I imagined committing this act, then I was overcome with a deep, cold, frightening shame. Although it was only an idea, I count it as one of my top three ugliest moments of personal failure.

I did some hard thinking and decided that (handguns especially) have a karma of sorts; that karma being to shoot a bullet into a person. I decided that having those guns around impelled me to become the kind of person who might actually use one of them against another human being. Not that guns make people shoot them at other people so much as: being aware of the presence of a loaded gun allows a person to consider using it and over time, considering using a gun will make a person more inclined to use it. So I got rid of everything except for two rifles.

When I ponder this chain of events which led me to momentarily fantasize about gunning down a woman in a parking lot, not to mention worry that the love of my life would try to murder me in my sleep, I am tempted to mythologise evil as being a thing which does roam freely looking for avenues into a persons psyche. Just a feeling really, but personal accountability aside, it's scary the way evil can sneak up and inhabit even nice people like myself.

DISCLAIMER: This post is relating a personal experience and subsequent personal ideas and feelings. I'm on the fence about gun control laws, and I wouldn't presume to try and define the nature of evil since I don't even like to think about evil if I can help it. Just thought my little morality tale might enhance the thread.
 
Ah, the standard Evil thread. Here's the standard challenge from a moral relativist, then: if there's an objective standard of evil, name an act which is considered evil by every culture.

I'll start the ball rolling with cannibalism - and South Seas folk who eat their dead relatives as an act of respect (actually quite beautiful IMO).
 
AndyGates said:
Ah, the standard Evil thread. Here's the standard challenge from a moral relativist, then: if there's an objective standard of evil, name an act which is considered evil by every culture.

I'll start the ball rolling with cannibalism - and South Seas folk who eat their dead relatives as an act of respect (actually quite beautiful IMO).

And as well as endophagy there is exophagy - the eating of one's enemies to acquire their power (and possibly to prevent them coming back for revenge).

We can take about good and evil as being general descriptions for a sliding moral scale (which has to be relative to our own value systems) what I'm really interested in are Good and Evil - like additions to the four Fundamental Forces of the Universe. I would assume that concept of Evil can't operate outside of some kind of religious belief system.
 
Good and Evil as you describe them are moral absolutes. Logically, you'd need an absolute arbiter. Fine if you have God, but problematic if you don't.

Also, if Good and Evil are forces like the conventional ones, you have to wonder just what might constitute an Evil quark? Or a Good Hole? :oops:
 
Mighty_Emperor said:
For the Worst of Us, the Diagnosis May Be 'Evil'

By BENEDICT CAREY

Published: February 8, 2005

Predatory killers often do far more than commit murder. Some have lured their victims into homemade chambers for prolonged torture. Others have exotic tastes - for vivisection, sexual humiliation, burning. Many perform their grisly rituals as much for pleasure as for any other reason.

........

In Nazi prisoner camps, as during purges in Kosovo and Cambodia, historians found that clerks, teachers, bureaucrats and other normally peaceable citizens committed some of the gruesome violence, apparently swept along in the kind of collective thoughtlessness that the philosopher Hannah Arendt described as the banality of evil.

.......

Source

More on Hannah Arendt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

and the Wikipedia entry on evil covers a lot of territory:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil
 
I would assume that concept of Evil can't operate outside of some kind of religious belief system.

I think that some concept of Evil (or at least wrongdoing) transcends/perfuses all human belief systems. Or are there any that leave it out...?
 
Absolute Evil

I endured my own personal enounter when Absolute Evil 33 years ago, in the Summer of 1973, when I was 31 years old. Like the post which opened this topic it was in the form of a "dream" (so called) - a nightmare I wouldn't wish upon any other living soul this side of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin, and maybe not even on them.

I always knew intellectually that Evil is peripatetic ("going to and fro in the world") but this is the one time I found myself squarely in the way.

The main thing I learned from that experience is that Evil is NOT a subjective opinion nor "merely" the absense of Good. Evil is a thing in itself and near-infinitely more hideous than we can imagine.

There are dimensions that dream of devouring us and I'm not talking about our flesh. Any shark and several thousand bacteria can do THAT quite nicely.
 
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