Exorcism

naitaka

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
432
Reaction score
20
Points
49
Exorcism death

LONDON ,ONTARIO-- During the three days it took Walter Zepeda to die, neighbours heard "many" voices chanting and praying in his family's apartment.

Now police want to know how many people were inside to see the 19 year old strapped to a bed with neckties in what may have been a faith healing or exorcism gone horribly wrong.

http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id={3C68948E-C995-413C-9051-444D71011C53}
 

JamesWhitehead

Piffle Prospector
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
13,491
Reaction score
12,561
Points
309
[Donning glass eye and gaberdine raincoat]

Lady, whenever I see a nineteen year old strapped to a bed
wid neckties, exorcism ain't the foist woid dat springs to my
mind.

You got the photos? :eek:
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Everyman: Exorcism

Tonight at 9pm, BBC2 (UK) - Everyman's look at Exorcism, featuring the work of the Revd Tom Willis.
 

JamesWhitehead

Piffle Prospector
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
13,491
Reaction score
12,561
Points
309
I've had it on for fifty odd minutes and keep hoping that at least
one of the sprogs will manage a little green puke before the end.

Managed to make Exorcist seem a rather dull job. :(
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Just caught the last 20 minutes of it. Was quite interesting because it showed how mundane these things actually are.
 

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 7, 2001
Messages
55,241
Reaction score
9,118
Points
284
I got all set up to video this. But when I 'stopped' the VCR, I discovered I hadn't actually started it....

I guess this is down to my stupidity rather than anything spooky.
(No need to reply.)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Yes, it turned out to be a bit mundane and unsensational - not that I thought anything abnormal would be captured on camera.

I have on tape a program interview with Dominic Walker, a C of E Deliverance Minister (last I heard, he was based at Brighton), in which he calmly describes his own experience of seeing an old woman appear as he conducted a deliverance mass in a house that had been plagued with strange goings-on. She smiled at him and vanished - quite an experience, he admitted, for a priest who was a proponent of pyschological solutions to most seemingly supernatural maladies.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
How the guy didn't notice the arrival of those two big bruises I don't know (that only happens to me when I've been drinking).

Those kids looked dodgy, especially the baby:devil:. I began to suspect it when the fountains of fire spat out of it's eyes and it's head began to :spinning ...Not really.

;)
 

_Lizard23_

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
Messages
1,601
Reaction score
20
Points
69
I thought it was hysterical!!
I mean - they were all actors - right??! Please say yes .. I mean, the Wayne and Waynetta/8 Ace family with 9 screaming foul kids telling the vicar-guy he looked like a girl in his blessing gear ... and the house full of screaming kiddy chaos ... until they moved then they like scrubbed em up and gave em both a facial and locked all the brats away somewhere so they were a picture of health and peace??? And all that "The peace of God be upon this cat" and "Bless this car" etc .... sorry ... I was in stitches!!!! .. and like the meeting of the ministry where all the church folk werte sitting sround going "well I think we need to talk about God more" heh heh heh ... sorry, I really enjoyed it but by about half way through I was pretty much convinced Chris Morris or someone was behind it, or maybe it was going to lapse into Ghostwatch-style bathos ....... oh I dunno ... maybe it's just me .....
 

JamesWhitehead

Piffle Prospector
Joined
Aug 2, 2001
Messages
13,491
Reaction score
12,561
Points
309
Ten minutes in any classroom in any not-very-nice school will
show how evil the telly is. Kids will talk at you in a demented
way they have derived from soap-opera and "real-life" telly.

Hall of mirrors really. I'm scared at times. :eek:
 

Aben_Zin

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 21, 2001
Messages
75
Reaction score
3
Points
39
I think it was funny actually. The hugely dramatic music to the pictures of nothing out of the ordinary happening whatsoever was really quite good...
And that Wayne guy (or whatever his real name is)...
"An' after we dug up the oija board and all the tarot cards with the devil on them, and we found the inverted cross written in blood, we definitly knew something strange had happened here..."

Az
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
9 kids in a nasty house in a shit part of Hull and not enough bedrooms between them, hmmmm rehousing scam anyone?

I particularly liked
Spooky village type:"look look, the curtains moving!"(to medium)
Interviewer:"Could that not be a draft?"
 

kiel_d

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
124
Reaction score
1
Points
47
I remember reading, while on a media course, some of the ITC broadcast guidelines. The one i remember was how to handle this sort of material, i don't remember the actual wording but it basically said that things of this nature HAD to be treated as tounge-in-cheek so as "not to offend a persons beliefs" i remember this quite clearly as i wrote (in a defiant "studenty" sort of way) an essay on the subject.

I personally liked the thought of the old lady's psychic budgie.;)

--kiel--
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Exorcism on TV

The problem with both the Reverend gentleman in question and the television programme in general is that there was little evidence of any exorcism taking place whatsoever. The Protestant world, particularly at its more evangelical end of the spectrum, makes a clear distinction between what they describe as "deliverance" and "exorcism." We certainly witnessed none of the latter in the true meaning of that rite. What viewers were subjected to was a painfully slow and tedious fifty minutes of an elderly minister of the Church of England visiting council estates, and what have you, for which his remedy was a blessing and a few prayers from the Anglican prayer book. This, believe me, is not the same as exorcism for which a very precise and quite long formula is required. That formula, not acknowledged in the Protestant world, save for a handful of anachronistic Anglo-Catholics, exists only in the pre-Vatican II Roman Ritual of the Catholic Church. The Pope has personally applied it thrice in his entire papacy, and formal exorcisms cannot be carried out by a priest of any denomination, Anglican included (though whether "exorcism" is a euphemism for "prayers" and "blessings" must remain open to question), without the permission of the diocesan bishop. The recent television programme was more about the ineffectiveness of watered-down religiousity to come to terms with something that is possibly a concentration of evil.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
One minor correction, exorcism is a recognised part of Anglican liturgy and, as in the RC church, Episcopal authority must be first be sought. The words and format were developed from those used in Africa by member churches of the Anglican Communion there.
To suggest that there is only one form of effective exorcism and the Roman Catholic Church has the monopoly on it is, in my experience, simplistic at best.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Exorcism Rite

The Roman Catholic Church certainly does not have a monopoly on exorcism, which any baptised Christian in an emergency is entitled to employ, but it, at least, does have a formula in its old rite (sadly no longer used by the modern post Vatican II church, but still in use by conservative traditionalists). Formal exorcism exists, in varying forms, within all of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, including, of course, Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches. All (Anglicans included, as I said before) require episcopal permission under non-emergency conditions. However, many within the Church of England refer to something they describe as "deliverance" and they themselves make the distinction between this and exorcism. The Anglican trend appears to be to frown upon use of a formal exorcism ritual, it would seem, and some priests (certainly the Anglican minister in the case of the "Everyman" documentary) apply "blessings" and "prayers" when an exorcism rite might be more appropriate.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
As a point of interest, how exactly does one define an "emergency"?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Emergency

Like the ability to baptise in an emergency, that all Christians are allowed to perform in an emergency, the determining factor is a genuine presentiment of the risk of imminent death. Such conditions do not obtain very often, but the possibility exists.
 

Bilderberger

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
595
Reaction score
6
Points
49
Spiritual First Aid

Following on, I now feel that it is the duty of all decent folk to learn the rites and ritual of the exorcism ceremony.

Much in the way that businesses have to have First Aid officers to assist us in our pyhsical accidents, businesses should have Exorcism Officers - just in case a colleague starts spewing green vomit and spinning his/her head around.

I will write to my MP.

On a less flippant subject - there was a fascinating documentary centred around an on-going exorcism on Channel 4 a little while back. The subject of the series of documentaries was "The Real Tuscany" and the first programme gave half it's air time to follwoing a local Bishop in his regular exorcism of a very disturbed 16 year old girl. It was a very sad story, as it soon became apparent that the poor girl had been sexually abused in her early childhood. One couldn't help thinking that the answer to her problems would lie in more conventional counselling/therapy as opposed to being strapped to a chair whilst she screamed and spat at the Bishop. Hardly surprising that the girl didn't like being strapped to a chair while an old man dominated over her........(not that I am accusing the Bishop of anything untoward - in his own way I am sure he was doing his utmost to help - I just personally felt it was making matters worse).

(P.S. Sorry if this programme has been discussed elsewhere - I missed a good few weeks worth of reviewing the site after the virus problem - which was probably when the programme was on).
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Thanks Bilderberger, the Tuscan example is a good illustration of precisely why the Anglican Church frowns upon overuse of rites of exorcism.
Not having a perception of evil which comes perilously close to dualism is also a contributing factor.
 

Bilderberger

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
595
Reaction score
6
Points
49
In fairness to the Catholic church, I believe that the usual Vatican recommended process would involve some serious psychological investigation prior to embarking on an actual exorcism. The norm would appear to be that all scientific and psychological avenues are pursued prior to a Priest being given the go ahead from the higher powers to actually perform an exorcism. I have been led to believe that Vatican sanctioned exorcisms are very rare indeed, but they are quite cagey about such things as they consider it all a bit embarrasing.

I have even read that some well respected pyschologists will refer patients to the church for exorcism. Not that they believe that the actual rites of the exorcism dispell a "demon" - just that the route to the patient's recovery can lie in the pychological power of such a cermony. I presume this is something akin to a pyschological placebo. If I believe that I am afflicted by demons, an exorcism may lead to me believing that I am now cured.......

More worrying than the mainstream Catholic chuch are the mavericks that proclaim self appointed powers to perform rites without any prior checks. This has to be dangerous and plays to the hopes and fears of very vulnerable people.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Bilderberger said:
In fairness to the Catholic church, I believe that the usual Vatican recommended process would involve some serious psychological investigation prior to embarking on an actual exorcism....

More worrying than the mainstream Catholic chuch are the mavericks that proclaim self appointed powers to perform rites without any prior checks. This has to be dangerous and plays to the hopes and fears of very vulnerable people.

Absolutely and it seems to be a particular problem at the charismatic/evangelical end of the spectrum where the least misfortune can be perceived as direct intervention by a diabolic source.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Vatican Embarrassed?

"I have been led to believe that Vatican sanctioned exorcisms are very rare indeed, but they are quite cagey about such things as they consider it all a bit embarrasing." - Bilderberger (6.3.2002)

"Leading Catholic exorcists in the UK have welcomed the Pope's grave warning about Satanism's worldwide rise. The chilling trend has been reflected in a spiralling demand for exorcisms. British exorcists, who say they are struggling to cope with the rising number of requests for their services, have applauded the Holy Father's call to arms. .... According to Fr Gabriel Amorth, chief exorcist for the diocese of Rome, the Holy Father's most recent exorcism took place last September. The Pope's warning on the growth of occult activity is his most vivid on the matter so far, and he is understood to be dismayed at the lack of urgency in addressing the matter." - The Universe newspaper (3.3.2002)

CAGEY? EMBARRASSED? RARELY SANCTIONS EXORCISMS? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN HIDING, MR BILDERBERGER?!!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Re: Vatican Embarrassed?

Exorcistate said:
"Leading Catholic exorcists in the UK have welcomed the Pope's grave warning about Satanism's worldwide rise.
It is regrettable that on this topic, as with others, the Pope seems to view the world from a Medieval mindset.
 

Pete Younger

Venerable and Missed
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Jul 31, 2001
Messages
5,883
Reaction score
187
Points
129
Dark Detective said:
As a point of interest, how exactly does one define an "emergency"?
Presumably, when old Nick has his tallons on yer collar and the flames are licking ever higher.:devil:
 

Bilderberger

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
595
Reaction score
6
Points
49
Exorcisms

Exorcistate - many thanks for your reply and the interesting quote you provided.

I note the source of your quote as being The Universe Magazine - not one of my favourite reads - so had never come across such views on the Catholic Church's attitude towards exorcism. Certainly, if the Catholic Church is not embarrased by exorcisms - then it should be..........

I am sure you'll agree that The Guardian newspaper is a decent source of information. Has no religious biase like certain other sources. Perhaps the following will interest you........

"........despite such progressive approaches, concern about exorcism remains high among mental health charities, health professionals and among senior Church figures. There are particular fears about charismatic Anglican groups that take a fundamentalist approach to demonic possession.

"I saw a brother and sister who had been exorcised by a cousin from Scotland after their parents' funeral," said Mr Ryder. "He had heard them talking about transcendental meditation and believed this could have let evil spirits enter them. He exorcised them both but the girl had a particularly unpleasant reaction, retching and vomiting. They both felt they had been spiritually abused.

"I believe if you shout out the names of spirits and demons to be powerful you create a response in the 'host' like in the film The Exorcist."

Dr David McDonald, a psychiatrist who has advised the Church of England, said this "Bible-bashing approach" did not accept anything other than a spiritual cause to people's distress: "I have seen clients who were told they're possessed and an exorcism was performed but they felt no better. They believe they must be really evil if God can't help them, which can be terribly damaging."

In a survey last year by the Mental Health Foundation, entitled Spirituality and mental health: voices and realities, several respondents said they had been damaged by exorcism. The charity warned that the notion of demonic possession could be extremely damaging when linked to people with a label of mental illness and "risked conflating notions of evil and ill health."

Strategies for Living project coordinator at the MHF, Vicky Nicholls said: "One respondent from a Pentecostal background said a priest had placed their hands on them and said 'Let the demons be gone!' Most felt such practices had contributed to their mental health problems."

The Rev Stephen Parsons, author of Ungodly Fear: Fundamentalist Christianity and the abuse of power, said: "The charismatic movement wants to demonise mental illness so they can deal with it through exorcism. They say the Lord has given them a special insight that science and medicine cannot offer. But persuading vulnerable people that they are possessed gives you a great deal of power over them. It's a form of emotional abuse."

Mr Parsons said sexual abuse, homosexuality and unwanted pregnancy were often seen as routes for demonic possession. "Imagine telling someone who has been raped they're now possessed - that is terribly abusive."

[Guardian - Weds May 2 2001]

I think this explains my concerns about maverick priests inflating their own egos through other people's suffering.

As far as The Catholic church's modern attitude to Exorcism is concerned......

"The ritual of exorcism is more cautiously employed by the Catholic Church at present than it once was. When reviewing the conditions for demonic possession that were once listed one can easily see many of the symptoms are those of epilepsy, hysteria, schizophrenia, and other psychological disorders. So priests are cautioned to be as certain as possible the person is truly demonically possessed before performing the ritual."

[Guardian 7 Nov 2001]

or

"Officially, the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church refuse to comment on the phenomenon although they admit that every diocese has dedicated staff experienced in dealing with exorcism, deliverance and the paranormal.

Church spokespeople insist that cases are rare, embarrassed by critics who claim that the whole subject is nothing but medieval superstition and that the churches should have nothing to do with any of it."

[Guardian 12 October 2001]

Perhaps the Catholic Church's reported attitude is flexible. When addressing a previously converted and faithfull audience (i.e. via a Catholic newspaper) there is no need to hide exorcism. When dealing with the world at large, the Catholic Church's attitude is far more cagey, for fear of being mocked by the general public.

Out of interest, Exorcistate, have you ever been involved in an exorcism?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Guardian & Exorcism

No, I do not regard The Guardian newspaper as a reliable source. One of its journalists once requested an interview with Bishop Manchester. He declined. The newspaper went ahead anyway with a half-page feature, attributing "quotes" to the bishop that had never been uttered, as no contact was established beyond a refusal. Together with a picture from a Photo Agency Library, The Guardian cobbled together a completely invented story about Bishop Manchester and his work in exorcism. Nothing negative, you understand. But totally made up by the Guardian staff writer.

Being left-wing, white and middle-class does not make an organ "reliable." The Universe is a Roman Catholic newspaper which is far more likely to get its facts straight when it comes to quoting Vatican sources, as it uses the official Vatican press agency. Biased or not, it is reporting the official Roman Catholic line on matters such as demonry and exorcism, which is certainly at variance with the slant on offer from The Guardian newspaper.

And, yes, I have am involved in the ministry of exorcism.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
No, I do not regard The Guardian newspaper as a reliable source
Twice today I've found myself agreeing with you.

Whenever I read a Guardian article re something I actually know .. it is invariably inaccurate and muddled. Makes me wonder how well they represent subjects which I don't understand. Same is also true of the Times and Independent.

Telegraph tends to be slightly sharper though I don't necessarily agree with much of it.

You make a fair point about the Vatican press agency.
 

Bilderberger

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 9, 2001
Messages
595
Reaction score
6
Points
49
It certainly is interesting that my own general perception of the Catholic authority's views differ from those which appear to be the real case. My point about the differing story when dealing with a general audience as opposed to a religious audience may still remain valid.

As far as the Guardian is concerned - I have personally always found the investigative journalism to be of a very high and responsible standard. Just think of the Aitken affair...........

Assuming that The Guardian did cobble together a story about Bishop Manchester using false quotes, then that is irresponsible and I can understand your personal concerns over the validity of The Guardian as a source.

In any case, this is perhaps missing the point. Going along with piece quoted in The Universe, then it may be more relevant to discuss the purpose of a new wave of exorcism. As I have already explained, I have strong personal reservations about the procedure, unless it is handled very responsibly (which, I have no doubt is usually the case). In replying to my post, you only commented on one remark, which was not really the essence of what I was trying to say (infact, in my own way, I was sticking up for the Catholic Church and, by my own standards, portrayed it as more rational than the case you put forward).

As a person who is involved in the ministry of exorcism, could you elaborate on what you consider to be the procedure involved in checking an individual's suitability and relevance for exorcism prior to getting the Holy Water out?

(P.S. I am not attacking you or your religion - I am sincerely interested in what you have to say - as you have direct experience, which is something I lack. I hope that you view this as an interesting and general discussion and not me trying to take this piss).
 
Top