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The Exorcism Thread

Exorcism Procedure

Demons either exist, or they do not. If the latter, you have a point. But if they do (and I know that to be the case), then we are obliged to defeat their objective by expelling them as instructed in Mark 16: 17. Christianity, Judaism, Islam and some other religious belief systems certainly subscribe to the existence of demons. It is non-negotiable for the believer in these faiths.

An exorcist must first eliminate all other possible considerations that might have a natural source. He must be convinced that the affliction is demonic. In my experience, where a truly possessed person is betraying symptoms of demonic interference the exorcist is left in little doubt. It is terrifying to behold. Anyone who has confronted supernatural evil will know exactly what I mean.

An exorcist will present the crucifix to the person suspected of possession. The crucifix should always be present. The victim will often stare at the cross and be forced to look away. They will often spit at it, curse and blaspheme. The cross is symbolic of the defeat of Satan through the death of Christ. The long prayer for Solemn Blessing of the Crucifix, "Ut quóties triúmphum divínae humnilitátis, quae supérbiam nostri hostis dejecit" and (how often the divine humility has triumphed casting out the pride of our enemy"). "Dignáre respícere, bene + dícere et Sancti + ficáre hanc creaturm incensi, ut omnes languores, omnesque imfirmitates, atque insidiar inimici, odorem ejus sentientes, efffugiant, et separatur a plasmate tuo; ut num quam lædatur amorsu antiqui serpentes" (Deign to care for bless and sanctify those being inflamed by passion and weakness, any sickness, deceits of the foe and suspicious resentments felt by them. Be cast out and driven away from your creature) and "Numquam lædatur a morsu antiqui derpentis" (Never to be hurt by the bite of the ancient serpent).

The following are selected paragraphs pertaining to the instruction of the exorcist as indicated in the Old Rite Rules of the Roman Ritual of Exorcism.

(a) The priest who with the particular and explicit permission of his Bishop is about to exorcise those tormented by Evil Spirit, must have the necessary piety, prudence and personal integrity. He should perform this most heroic work humbly and courageously, not relying on his own strength, but on the power of God; and he must have no greed for material benefit. Besides, he should be of mature age and be respected as a virtuous person.

(b) Let the exorcist note for himself the tricks and deceits which evil spirits use in order to lead him astray. For they are accustomed to answering falsely. They manifest themselves only under pressure ~ in the hope that the exorcist will get tired and desist from pressuring them. Or they make it appear that the subject of exorcism is not possessed at all.

(c) Sometimes, an evil spirit betrays its presence, and then goes into hiding. It appears to have left the body of the possessed free from all molestation, so that the possessed thinks he is completely rid of it. But the exorcist should not, for all that, desist until he sees the signs of liberation.

(d) The exorcist must remember, therefore, that Our Lord said there is a species of evil spirit which cannot be expelled except by prayer and fasting. Let him make sure that he and others follow the example of the Holy Fathers and make use of these two principal means of obtaining divine help and of repelling the evil spirit.

(e) During exorcism, the exorcist should use the words of the Bible rather than his own or somebody else's. Also, he should command the evil spirit to state whether it is kept within the possessed because of some magical spell or sorcerer's symbol or some occult documents. For the exorcism to succeed, the possessed must surrender them. If he has swallowed something like that, he will vomit it up. If it is outside his body in some place or other, the evil spirit must tell the exorcist where it is. When the exorcist finds it, he must burn it.
 
You mention that other faiths believe in demons, but only detail the Christian exorcism.

How do other faiths do it? Presumably not with crucifix and bible!

Which methods work best? Perhaps Which? should do a comparative test...

The multiplicity of religions is just one reason I'm an agnostic.
 
Re: Exorcism Procedure

Exorcistate said:
It is non-negotiable for the believer in these faiths.

..in the opinion of you and the church you represent, but with respect, this does not give you the authority to make normative pronouncements on what is negotiable or otherwise for a wider range of believers.

This is a topic which I have a great personal, and to a certain extent, professional interest in. Out of that interest, how often do you encounter cases that in your opinion require the Old Rite to be performed and would you consider the Old Rite to be the only one that can ever be effective in such cases?
 
FAO: Therion

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"It is non-negotiable for the believer in these faiths." - Exorcistate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"... in the opinion of you and the church you represent, but with respect, this does not give you the authority to make normative pronouncements on what is negotiable or otherwise for a wider range of believers." - Therion

Christian, Jewish and Moslem doctrine (plus some others) is emphatic on the matter of demonic existence. These major faiths, based on their Holy Scripture, have certain non-negotiable tenets. A belief in the Devil (Satan) and his demons is one of them. This is the orthodox teaching of these religions, not a watered-down latter-day liberal "do what thou wilt" version.

Regarding your other queries, I am not in the business of playing twenty questions ad infinitum. Nobody else is revealing much about themselves, nor answering very much. It is becoming a one way traffic where I appear to have been placed in the dock. But by whom? The answer to that would be far more interesting ....
 
I am sorry that you feel you are in the dock by the questions asked of you - I certainly don't view it that way. To address your points:

I am a business advisor who has no professional or social link to the church or the world of pyschology. However, I do have an interest in the power of religion on the world. It is an interest - with no professional or religious agenda.

As some one who is involved in the ministry of exorcism, you can provide information which I otherwise would have no access to. It is not an interogation - I am interested in what you have to say.

If you are concerned about any agenda I may have - then I would say I have been very up front about my point of view. Without very strict psychological checks prior to the administration of exorcism procedures, I fear that various state churches (and particularly the charismatic based off-shoots) may be a danger to the mental health of some people.

Your reply did not explain what procedures you consider right and necessary to rule out psychological rather than demonic possession. All you said was that all possible natural causes must be eliminated - what kind of thing are you referring to and how do you go about this?

The crunch point in your diagnosis seems to be based in faith - you can tell that somebody is possessed. A very bold step to make - but then again requires no more or less faith than believing that Jesus dies on the cross for our sins (a rather popular notion, I am led to believe). At this point, we will never agree - you have made a leap of faith that I haven't.

Should you still feel that you are in the dock, then thanks for your contribution - very interesting. Otherwise, I hope you can see this discussion as a debate and not a kangaroo court. It may all seem one way traffic to you - but perhaps if you were a little more open minded you would understand that other people are giving other points of view and there is nothing wrong in questioning these in an open and polite manner.
 
Blideberger's "Politenness" & Query Answered

"This bloke [Bishop Manchester] gives me the creeps - what a total loon monkey. Any more info. would be of great interest to me as well." - Bildeberger

" ... businesses should have Exorcism Officers - just in case a colleague starts spewing green vomit and spinning his/her head around." - Bildeberger

To deal briefly with Bildeberger's concern regarding psychological testing of a suspected victim of possession: It is correctly stated that this ministry does attract a minority of very enthusiastic but immature people who rush in without quite knowing what is going on, and generally cause confusion without making a proper diagnosis. This does not happen within the Catholic Church of which I am part.

Catholic applies to all denominational members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, ie Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Orthodox etc. Though the Anglican Communion considers itself to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, few of the other church denominations accept this.

Following tonsuring, on my way to becoming an Acolyte, I first entered the minor order of the Porter, then the Reader, and then the Exorcist. As with all orders, minor and holy, training is needed and, with exorcism, there is a degree of learning with regard to psychological, medical (especially mental) and other maladies in order to distinguish these from demonic possession. An exorcist is a spiritual physician endowed with the power of healing. Some go on to specialise in this ministry when they enter holy orders.
 
Regarding your other queries, I am not in the business of playing twenty questions ad infinitum. Nobody else is revealing much about themselves, nor answering very much. It is becoming a one way traffic where I appear to have been placed in the dock. But by whom? The answer to that would be far more interesting

To Exorcistate:

I started, last August, the 'Notes & Queries' thread regarding your work and your church. I was interested to know more about the person behind your various web sites and organisations. I am interested only in your public life and work. I have no agenda.

I am happy to answer any questions or concerns which you may have regarding my interest. Either here or privately via the Hotmail address.

I understand your not wanting to answer unlimited questions. However you do have a unique perspective and experience. I
certainly hope that you will be a regular contributor here.

I have 3 questions which I hope you will answer and which relate directly to your posts in this thread:

1. In your opinion - would a person be able to convincingly fake demonic possession?

2. Have you encountered either fake or delusional possession?

3. How many times have you encountered what you believe to be real demons?

Simon
 
Identifying the Fake from the Real

1. In your opinion - would a person be able to convincingly fake demonic possession?

2. Have you encountered either fake or delusional possession?

3. How many times have you encountered what you believe to be real demons?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Ultimately not. In the short term, yes, perhaps, but only with those who would not know the difference, or indeed a relatively inexperienced exorcist.

2. Yes.

3. Impossible to say. Far to many to keep a head count.
 
Re: FAO: Therion

Exorcistate said:
quote: Regarding your other queries, I am not in the business of playing twenty questions ad infinitum...It is becoming a one way traffic where I appear to have been placed in the dock.

I am sorry you feel this way, especially as you entered this thread on the basis that you had expertise in this area. I may disagree with you on certain points, but I have nowhere resorted to ridicule or ad hominem attacks.
I have found that asking questions of those with experience is a useful way of getting accurate information but it would seem that in this case I am to be disappointed and I must seek it elsewhere.
 
I am sorry you feel this way, especially as you entered this thread on the basis that you had expertise in this area. I may disagree with you on certain points, but I have nowhere resorted to ridicule or ad hominem attacks.
I have found that asking questions of those with experience is a useful way of getting accurate information but it would seem that in this case I am to be disappointed and I must seek it elsewhere.

Hang on there 'therion'. +SM just politely and straightforwardly answered my 3 questions to him. He remains engaged.

You have stated your
great personal, and to a certain extent, professional interest
- perhaps at this point it would be useful if you could provide a little more information. Since you are also involved in this thread on the basis of your expertise.

In what sense, for example, is your interest professional? What is your experience?
 
Simon, I have no axe to grind with Exorcistate, nor was I questioning his/her expertise. Quite the reverse in fact.
If someone with something interesting to say posts on a messageboard, they shouldn't be surprised if people want to take the opportunity to ask them further questions.

As stated, my interest is primarily personal. I'm a lay member of the Anglican Church and I have had the privilege to know a number of (ordained) individuals who have worked in this field. From them I gained some insight into their experiences and understanding of the issue and read widely around it before deciding that it was not a path that I felt equipped to follow myself.
My professional interest stems from my being a teacher of theology, and biblical history.
 
1) Has a real exorcism and/or case of demonic possession ever been documented on videotape?

2) Of the number of cases of real demons Exorcistate claims to have witnessed, were most or all manifested as possession or in some other way?
If as possession, it suggests a heck of a lot of cases, so many in fact that I would have expected medical science or the media to take a far greater interest.
 
Islamic exorcism, if I recall correctly, was covered on Fortean TV a few years back. One method involved I.V. transfusion of water in which floated pieces of paper with verses from the Quran written on. As far as I am aware this ritual is not specified in the Quran or Hadith.

As for the effectiveness of exorcism, Religion A could always see the effectiveness of Religion B's exorcism as being due to Religion B's being in league with the departing demons in a mutual deception - and vice versa of course! In fact, it is this very strategy that the Pharisees accused Christ of using in his exorcisms!

I sigh when some Christians get overly worked up about Satan, when the prophet Jeremiah's declaration "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9) - puts Joe Soap in contention with the Devil for being the most wicked/deceitful thing on the go. I think we do a pretty good job of being nasty without the need for supernatural assistance!
 
Dark Detective - are you really in Rennes Le Chateau? I've got a house just a few km from you -> direction Tuchan. It's a lovely little village you there live. Currently I spend most summers in Aude but I'm planning to move down full time in the next couple of years.
 
Unfortunately I'm not! All part of the online persona I'm afraid (which tends to move around a lot) though it sounds like a beautiful part of the world and I'm sure to visit some time.

Sorry to throw you a curve!
 
Dark Detective: There was I wondering if I'd ever come across you up there!

therion: good post. Thanks.
 
Exorcistate -

You make a fair point with regards to my own "politeness" on early postings. With retrospect I do feel that the phrase "total loon monkey" was out of order and I apologise for any insult that this implied. I do sometimes type before I think and now regret the comment (although I sincerely did not mean it in such an insulting way as it sounded). As for now, I have respect for your postings and your obvious intelligence. I wonder whether a career in politics would have suited you better. Would you indulge me in changing my earlier post to just saying that you are "eccentric." No offense intended - you life is probably more interesting than mine thanks to your unusual experiences.

As for the comments about businesses having exorcism officers - I did openly say that this was a flippant comment. My joke may not have been very amusing, but it was not an insult.
 
EXORCISM

The following is a simple exorcism prayer that can be said by priests or laity. The term "exorcism" does NOT always denote a solemn exorcism involving a person possessed by the Devil. In general, the term denotes prayers to "curb the power of the Devil and prevent him from doing harm." As St Peter had written in Holy Scripture, "your adversary the Devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour." (1Peter 5:8)

The Holy Father exhorts priests to say this prayer as often as possible, as a simple exorcism to curb the power of the Devil and prevent him from doing harm. The faithful also may say it in their own name, for the same purpose, as any approved prayer. Its use is recommended whenever action of the devil is suspected, causing malice in men, violent temptations and even storms and various calamities. It could be used as a solemn exorcism (an official and public ceremony, in Latin), to expel the Devil. It would then be said by a priest, in the name of the Church and only with a Bishop's permission.

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

PRAYER TO SAINT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL

Most glorious Prince of the Heavenly Armies, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in "our battle against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places" (Eph., VI,12). Come to the assistance of men whom God has created to His likeness and whom He has redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. Holy Church venerates thee as her guardian and protector; to thee, the Lord has entrusted the souls of the redeemed to be led into heaven. Pray therefore the God of Peace to crush Satan beneath our feet, that he may no longer retain men captive and do injury to the Church. Offer our prayers to the Most High, that without delay they may draw His mercy down upon us; take hold of "the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan", bind him that he may no longer seduce the nations" (Apoc. XX,2).

EXORCISM

In the Name of Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, strengthened by the intercession of the Immaculate Virgin Mary, Mother of God, of Blessed Michael the Archangel, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul and all the Saints. (and powerful in the holy authority of our ministry)*, we confidently undertake to repulse the attacks and deceits of the Devil.

* Lay people omit the parenthesis above.

PSALM 67: God arises; His enemies are scattered and those who hate Him flee before Him.
As smoke is driven away, so are they driven; as wax melts before the fire, so the wicked perish at the presence of God.

V. Behold the Cross of the Lord, flee bands of enemies.
R. He has conquered, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the offspring of David.
V. May thy mercy, Lord, descend upon us.
R. As great as our hope in Thee.

[The crosses below indicate a blessing to be given if a priest recites the Exorcism; if a lay person recites it, they indicate the Sign of the Cross to be made silently by that person.]

We drive you from us, whoever you may be, unclean spirits, all satanic powers, all infernal invaders, all wicked legions, assemblies and sects; in the Name and by the power of Our Lord Jesus Christ,+ may you be snatched away and driven from the Church of God and from the souls made to the image and likeness of God and redeemed by the Precious Blood of the Divine Lamb. + Most cunning serpent, you shall no more dare to deceive the human race, persecute the Church, torment God's elect and sift them as wheat.+ The Most High God commands you,+ He with whom, in your great insolence, you still claim to be equal; "He who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim., II,4). God the Father commands you. + God the Son commands you. + God the Holy Ghost commands you. + Christ, God's Word made flesh, commands you; + He who to save our race outdone through your envy, "humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death" (Phil.,II,8); He who has built His Church on the firm rock and declared that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Her, because He will dwell with Her "all days even to the end of the world" (Mat.,XXVIII,20). The sacred Sign of the Cross commands you, + as does also the power of the mysteries of the Christian Faith. + The glorious Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, commands you. + The blood of the Martyrs and the pious intercession of all the Saints command you. + Thus, cursed dragon, and you, diabolical legions, we adjure you by the living God, + by the true God, + by the holy God, + by the God "who so loved the world that He gave up His only Son, that every soul believing in Him might not perish but have life everlasting" (St.John,III); stop deceiving human creatures and pouring out to them the poison of eternal damnation; stop harming the Church and hindering her liberty. Begone, Satan, inventor and master of all deceit, enemy of man's salvation. Give place to Christ in whom you have found none of your works; give place to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church acquired by Christ at the price of His Blood. Stoop beneath the all-powerful Hand of God; tremble and flee when we invoke the Holy and terrible Name of Jesus, this Name which causes hell to tremble, this Name to which the Virtues, Powers and Dominations of heaven are humbly submissive, this Name which the Cherubim and Seraphim praise unceasingly repeating: Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord, the God of Armies.

V. O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. And let my cry come unto Thee.
V. May the Lord be with thee.
R. And with thy spirit.

Let us pray. - God of heaven, God of earth, God of Angels, God of Archangels, God of Patriarchs, God of Prophets, God of Apostles, God of Martyrs, God of Confessors, God of Virgins, God who has power to give life after death and rest after work, because there is no other God than Thee and there can be no other, for Thou art the Creator of all things, visible and invisible, of whose reign there shall be no end, we humbly prostrate ourselves before Thy glorious Majesty and we beseech Thee to deliver us by Thy power from all the tyranny of the infernal spirits, from their snares, their lies and their furious wickedness; deign, O Lord, to grant us Thy powerful protection and to keep us safe and sound. We beseech Thee through Jesus Christ Our Lord. Amen.

From the snares of the Devil, deliver us, O Lord.

That Thy Church may serve Thee in peace and liberty, we beseech Thee in peace and liberty, we beseech Thee to hear us.

That Thou may crush down all enemies of Thy Church, we beseech Thee to hear us.

(Holy water is sprinkled in the place where we may be.)
 
FAO: Therion

"I'm a lay member of the Anglican Church and I have had the privilege to know a number of (ordained) individuals who have worked in this field. ... My professional interest stems from my being a teacher of theology, and biblical history." - THERION

I am intrigued to learn why an Anglican who teaches theology and biblical history would adopt the user-name "Therion" ~ since this pseudonym has hitherto only been associated with one person, namely Aleister Crowley, who adopted the nomenclature "Tomega Therion," ie "Master Therion."

Is the Anglican "Therion," indeed, a closet admirer of Aleister Crowley, and, if not, why adopt an appellation uniquely associated with the founder of modern Satanism?
 
Re: What's in a name...

Originally posted by Exorcistate
[B Is the Anglican "Therion," indeed, a closet admirer of Aleister Crowley

The name is just a name to use on a messageboard, chosen as a private joke between myself and another. There is absolutely nothing more to it than that.

As, in my opinion, Crowley was a sociopathic charlatan who played on the susceptibilities of the weak for his own ends... no I am not an admirer, closet or otherwise. For that I would also have to take him seriously, which I don't.
 
Phew!!!

That's a relief!

However, names ~ even pseudonyms ~ can evoke powerful imagery and we adopt them cavalierly sometimes at our peril.

"Therion" has a very strong association, plus a meaning in itself. I just found it a curious choice (for someone in the Anglican Church who teaches theology and biblical history) to make.
 
Science v Religion

Exorcistate - sorry to reopen an old discussion, but I feel that it was not finished.

You have told me that, as part of your training to become an "exorcist" you had a certain amount of pyschological and medical training. Glad to hear it. However, may I ask you the following........ (and please, can you actually answer the questions rather than doing a politician style dodge).....

1. Do you consider that the psychological training offered by the catholic Church (of whatever denomination) is equal to that which the state demands a practising psychiatrist/psychologist has to successfully undertake?

2. Do you consider that it is possible for people, who have not achieved the level of training that the public demands a person should have prior to making judgements about another person's mental health, (i.e. high level of academic ability, full medical training, on the job experience and on-going updates) to misdiagnose mental illness?

3. Would you ever countenance the performance of an exorcism rite without the agreement of a properly qualified professional in the area of mental health?

Regards.
 
Religion v Science

1. Do you consider that the exorcism training offered by the Catholic Church (of whatever denomination) should be obligatory for practicing psychiatrists/psychologists?

2. Do you consider that it is possible for psychiatrists/psychologists, who have not achieved the level of training that the Catholic Church demands a person should have prior to making judgements about another person's spiritual well-being, to misdiagnose demonic possession?

3. Would you ever countenance a psychiatrist's prescription for powerful drugs without the agreement of a properly qualified professional in the area of exorcism?
 
Is Exorcistate really Alistair Campbell?

Rynner - I couldn't agree more..............

How frustrating!

OK - you seem to have purposefully missed the point of my questioning (I will give you the benefit of the doubt).

It is not fair for you to return the questions in the manner in which you have returned them. Psychiatric professionals do NOT claim to be able to perform the exorcism rite. Exorcisate claims that Catholic priests can diagnose mental illness. Question number 1 is therefore not a reply - it is irrelevant.

As for the rest, surely you are not suggesting that an individual exhibiting mental stress/disorder should be checked out by the Catholic Church prior to seeing a mental health professional so that possession can be ruled out as the first point of call? If that is what you suggest, then please just say so - but don't just give a load of flannel.

So, to answer your questions:

1. As explained above - a non question. No, mental health professionals should not have exorcism training.

2. It is no doubt possible for a person not trained in the area of exorcism to make a misdiagnosis of possession. However, in my opinion, this should not be the natural and first explantion for people exhibiting signs of mental stress/disorder. Also, many mental health professionals ARE willing to request exorcism rites from the Catholic Church where they feel this is appropriate. At least they don't consider they can perform this activity on a par with a less well trained person.

3. Yes. Plain and simple. I would quite happily let anyone I love and care about be prescribed powerful drugs from a qualified mental health professional without the say so of a person experienced in exorcism. I am confident that I join the 99.99 of people who would answer your question that way. Of the other 0.01%, most of those are actually on powerful drugs to treat their delusional illness.
 
The price of exorcism

Posted on Sat, Mar. 23, 2002
Woman gets 0,000 in exorcism suit
By DARREN BARBEE
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
FORT WORTH - Six years after Laura Schubert sued members of a Colleyville church for trying to cast demons out of her, a Tarrant County jury's award of 0,000 filled her with joy...
Full story here.
 
What gets me is that hte court doesn't get to hear the religious aspects of the case - at the request of the church concerned!
 
[Three Exorcism threads have been merged into this one - rynner]
 
Did anyone see a post on excorcism.....?

Recently I saw a very long post on excorcism, which contained the whole of the religious procedure - but I can't find it again and I can't remember which thread it was on. I was rushing and thought I would read it properly later when I had more time. I have looked through all the possibles - but no luck so far.

It looked very interesting and I can't recall that it contained anything which would cause it to be deleted.

Can anyone help please? - thanks, Heather.
 
Parapsychology > Exorcisms Thread

Posted by Exorcistate 11-03. I think the following addy will take

you to it: [Emp edit: merged and delted]


[Well done, Lecky, finding that - I've now corrected your link so it does connect to the right page! I'm glad to see I didn't delete it, as has been claimed!

The problem arose over thread merging (see next post). But Searching on the original thread title should still find the thread.]
 
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