Exorcism

[GNC]

I don't think it's more demonic possession about, though they may be right about belief in demons as a factor, I think it's the same reason troubled people seek out quacks and psychics, they want a magic spell solution to deep-seated psychological problems. The mind doesn't work like that, so they keep coming back, uncured, and going away uncured, in a cycle. Exorcism doesn't work, either, no matter what the movies say (or maybe they do say: there's always sequels, right?).

 

[Jim]

I don't think it's more demonic possession about, though they may be right about belief in demons as a factor, I think it's the same reason troubled people seek out quacks and psychics, they want a magic spell solution to deep-seated psychological problems. The mind doesn't work like that, so they keep coming back, uncured, and going away uncured, in a cycle. Exorcism doesn't work, either, no matter what the movies say (or maybe they do say: there's always sequels, right?).

I tend to agree with your post. However remain Fortean on the possible existance in demons, spirits and other unworldly powers.

 

[GNC]

I tend to agree with your post. However remain Fortean on the possible existance in demons, spirits and other unworldly powers.

Yeah, I suppose there are more things in heaven and earth and all that. But supernatural possession is something far easier explained by psychological problems, and propagating the idea that they're caused by non-existent entities is something to take major issue with, especially when there are profits, both social and financial, to be made by the unscrupulous or misguided.

 

[Jim]

Yeah, I suppose there are more things in heaven and earth and all that. But supernatural possession is something far easier explained by psychological problems, and propagating the idea that they're caused by non-existent entities is something to take major issue with, especially when there are profits, both social and financial, to be made by the unscrupulous or misguided.

Unfortunately this is so true. Hucksters, people suffering from delusions, those seeking publicity, tend to make most of the noise. And noise it is, since it can prevent us from getting the small nugget of truth that exist. This is common to many Fortean topics, i.e.: cryptozoology, the supernatural (including exorcism).

 

[Roger Nowell]

Reading the above made me think of the churches here in my town.

The one church that might be said to seek demons seems to find them. My perception is that it is a church in love with esoterica but doesn't realise it.

A nearby village was (or is) home to that rare beast, an Anglican exorcist - Rev. Tom Willis. My Mother worked with his wife; says she was lovely (apropos of nothing..)


Roger Nowell - proudly demon-free since 1970

 

[ramonmercado]

Another victim of religious fanatics, they are the ones who are crazy.

A mentally ill man died after his family tied him up for days in the belief he was “possessed”, a court has heard.

Kennedy Ife’s parents and five brothers are accused of manslaughter, false imprisonment and causing his death through a botched exorcism at their home in north London.

Opening their trial at the Old Bailey, prosecutors said the family restrained the 26-year-old marketing consultant with cable ties, rope and handcuffs for several days leading up to his death on 22 August 2016.

Prosecutor Tom Little QC told the court Mr Ife died because “his own family decided that because he had become and remained unwell, he should be restrained. The 999 call that was eventually made for expert assistance was too late,” he said. “The family put misguided religious beliefs about this young man being possessed by a demon or evil spirits before the obvious and common sense conclusion that he needed help and did not need to be restrained.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...g2YpmEsuCYKP9l2-BHabbUJKi4#Echobox=1549314201

 

[Frideswide]

This makes me so very very angry.

 

[ramonmercado]

The money could be better spent.

More than two hundred Italian public school teachers expressed their willingness to take a special course in which they would be trained to expel the devil from students who were under his influence.

The 40-hour course in 'exorcisms and prayers of liberation' is being provided by the Vatican-affiliated Pontifical University of Regina Apostolorum. This kind of training, which costs $450, was initiated by Italian Minister of Education Marco Bussetti and is conducted with the support of the Catholic clergy, according to the Daily Mail.

Representatives of the opposition in the Italian government have stated that the country had more important problems than the obsession with Satan, and criticised the course offered to teachers as "a return to the Middle Ages".

https://sputniknews.com/europe/2019...K44BL7s0Ttw7soLBifib5HFJUiHjr6bi3qNxynJqFgVqA

 

[ramonmercado]

Here's a guy who believes in Possession and the need for Exorcism.

Chai Brady discusses addiction, mental health, evil spirits and exorcism with Fr Pat Collins

“Who 
do 
you
 think 
you 
are,
 do
 you
 think
 you
 have
 any
 control
 over
 me?”
Those were the demonic words spoken by a woman in a “gruff raspy voice” alien to her normal inflection, according to Ireland’s most renowned exorcist when he had started praying to expel an evil spirit from her body.

Fr Pat Collins says he has had several encounters with entities many would believe to be the works of superstition or filmmakers’ imaginations.

Despite disbelief and even outrage from many, the priest has held to his guns about the increasing need for exorcism and what’s known as ‘deliverance ministry’ in Ireland, so much so that he has started training teams of people from around Ireland to combat evil spirits.

Speaking to The Irish Catholic Fr Pat said: “This area has been totally neglected. I’ve been appealing for years to the bishops to really take this seriously because there’s a tsunami of need emerging and there are very few people who are competent to respond to that and I think it’s so unfair for the people suffering.”

“I don’t know how many official exorcists there are in the country, maybe two or three, every diocese should have one. In fact, I think every diocese should have two or three and furthermore I think they should be trained, you’re not going to be let loose as a counsellor or a therapist, or any other form of ministry, unless you’ve got thorough training, unless there are protocols and so on.”

There are many ways to leave yourself open to oppression by evil spirts, he says, and because of “ignorance really, or naivety” people are being infected.

https://www.irishcatholic.com/where-angels-fear-to-tread/

 

[ramonmercado]

Good to see that the RCC isn't being possessive with it's exorcism course.

For the first time in 14 years, the Roman Catholic Church has opened up its annual exorcism class in Rome to all major Christian faiths in a bid to stem the rising tide of demonic forces around the world.

“The idea is to help each other, to establish best practices if you will,” Father Pedro Barrajon, 61, one of the organizers of the 14th edition of the “Course on Exorcism and Prayer of Liberation,” taking place at the Pontifical University of Regina Apostolorum, told the Telegraph. “This is the first time that different denominations have come together to compare their experiences on exorcisms.”

The one week course which is taught in Italian at a cost of approximately $450 is being held May 6- 11.

It is described as the first course in the world that proposes careful academic and interdisciplinary research of exorcisms.

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...SVygcQb1iqJGttz3eL8DhfC-jdG3SeiWs9DBBQyL2JzVw

 

[Lizard King]

I knew of a lady diagnosed with Schizophrenia, who was told by her some of her fellow church goers that she was experiencing evil forces at work. This was very damaging to the lady, who had poor insight anyway.

 

[GNC]

I knew of a lady diagnosed with Schizophrenia, who was told by her some of her fellow church goers that she was experiencing evil forces at work. This was very damaging to the lady, who had poor insight anyway.

Especially as exorcisms don't bloody work, and doubly especially they don't bloody work on the mentally ill. This is a dreadful scam the church is running and the sooner it's exposed the better.

 

[Frideswide]

I knew of a lady diagnosed with Schizophrenia, who was told by her some of her fellow church goers that she was experiencing evil forces at work. This was very damaging to the lady, who had poor insight anyway.

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Especially as exorcisms don't bloody work, and doubly especially they don't bloody work on the mentally ill. This is a dreadful scam the church is running and the sooner it's exposed the better.

totally agree with teh second half, but the first is a wee bit too general? They do seem to work under certain circumstances.

 

[GNC]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!




totally agree with teh second half, but the first is a wee bit too general? They do seem to work under certain circumstances.

Maybe they do, maybe the "symptoms" would have gone away anyway, it's really impossible to tell.

 

[Frideswide]

Do you have direct experience of what the Episcopalian church does nowadays? and since the end of ww2 roughly speaking. Or the Catholics?

I know more about Piskies, only been a Catholic for c12 years.

Nothing like the literature or fillums or whatever.

 

[GNC]

Do you have direct experience of what the Episcopalian church does nowadays? and since the end of ww2 roughly speaking. Or the Catholics?

I know more about Piskies, only been a Catholic for c12 years.

Nothing like the literature or fillums or whatever.

Haven't had anything to do with churches for years, but I have read/seen stuff about exorcisms in real life that don't end well, enough to put me off the idea for life.

 

[Frideswide]

Yes, the press reports aren't ones I'd approve, not that anyone is asking me to. #lol

 

[GNC]

Not only press reports, I can recommend a couple of films too.

The documentary Libera Nos (Deliver Us) presents exorcisms in such mundane circumstances that it becomes damning in its banality:
IMDB page

And the true life fictionalisation of a series of exorcisms on a mentally ill young woman, Requiem, from the tragic Annaliese Michel case:
IMDB page

Both of which should make any reasonable person very angry after watching.

 

[Jim]

Especially as exorcisms don't bloody work, and doubly especially they don't bloody work on the mentally ill. This is a dreadful scam the church is running and the sooner it's exposed the better.

Occasional dark forces beyond our understanding may exist. I refuse to dismiss exorcisms - demons - malevolent spirits completly out of hand. They're common to nearly all belief systems (not just that of Catholics - Christians), Hindu's, Jews, Muslims, animist, etc..
I remain very skeptical of such reports, yet keep an open mind towards cryptids, spiritual entities (including demons), unproven dimensions , ancient finding that could change our current understanding of paleontology, anthropology, archaeology. I'm getting off topic.
The problems with such events they're difficult to prove using the scientific method and the world is filled with huckster and delusional people who propel nonsense.

 

[Swifty]

Occasional dark forces beyond our understanding may exist. I refuse to dismiss exorcisms - demons - malevolent spirits completly out of hand. They're common to nearly all belief systems (not just that of Catholics - Christians), Hindu's, Jews, Muslims, animist, etc..
I remain very skeptical of such reports, yet keep an open mind towards cryptids, spiritual entities (including demons), unproven dimensions , ancient finding that could change our current understanding of paleontology, anthropology, archaeology. I'm getting off topic.
The problems with such events they're difficult to prove using the scientific method and the world is filled with huckster and delusional people who propel nonsense.

You've perfectly summed up our approach as "Spectral Paranormal" ... there's three of us, we all believe there's something else out there but we're also aware we could wind ourselves and each other up if we're not careful .. and that other people sometimes think we're deluded ..

We challenge each other on purpose, offer the most sensible explanations so we can eliminate as much as we can. Sometimes we have some compelling unexplained stuff that we might be able to also explain away later (at the moment, we triangulate our recording devices so if someone says something lame sounding we can see what the other two cameras and three digital recorders pick up or not) .. when we can't after all that, we get excited and it happen more than you'd think.

 

[ramonmercado]

A priest's impression of the Exorcism Course.

If you read reports in secular media, you might conclude that the Vatican runs an annual “crash course” on exorcism which certifies 250 or so new exorcists each year.

Having just returned from the so-called “Exorcism Course,” I can confirm it is nothing like that. Seven Aussies and two Kiwis attended this year’s course, and only one of us was an exorcist — an assignment he received some 40 years ago, quite independent of the Vatican course.

Most of the Australians present were priests like me, less than ten years ordained, who have recognised a deficiency in our priestly training. (In saying that, I don’t mean to criticise our seminary formation. It’s an impossible task, to condense the expanse of the Church’s pastoral wisdom and practice into seven years of study.)

In ordinary parish settings, we have encountered people who are fearful of demonic activity in their lives, and others who are happily and obstinately ensconced in New Age practices.

https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/fr-john-corrigan-lessons-learned-from-an-exorcism-course/

 

[Analogue Boy]

A priest's impression of the Exorcism Course.

If you read reports in secular media, you might conclude that the Vatican runs an annual “crash course” on exorcism which certifies 250 or so new exorcists each year.

Having just returned from the so-called “Exorcism Course,” I can confirm it is nothing like that. Seven Aussies and two Kiwis attended this year’s course, and only one of us was an exorcist — an assignment he received some 40 years ago, quite independent of the Vatican course.

Most of the Australians present were priests like me, less than ten years ordained, who have recognised a deficiency in our priestly training. (In saying that, I don’t mean to criticise our seminary formation. It’s an impossible task, to condense the expanse of the Church’s pastoral wisdom and practice into seven years of study.)

In ordinary parish settings, we have encountered people who are fearful of demonic activity in their lives, and others who are happily and obstinately ensconced in New Age practices.

https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/fr-john-corrigan-lessons-learned-from-an-exorcism-course/

Fuck only knows what their goals and objectives are in their annual appraisal forms.

 

[Jim]

A priest's impression of the Exorcism Course.

If you read reports in secular media, you might conclude that the Vatican runs an annual “crash course” on exorcism which certifies 250 or so new exorcists each year.

Having just returned from the so-called “Exorcism Course,” I can confirm it is nothing like that. Seven Aussies and two Kiwis attended this year’s course, and only one of us was an exorcist — an assignment he received some 40 years ago, quite independent of the Vatican course.

Most of the Australians present were priests like me, less than ten years ordained, who have recognised a deficiency in our priestly training. (In saying that, I don’t mean to criticise our seminary formation. It’s an impossible task, to condense the expanse of the Church’s pastoral wisdom and practice into seven years of study.)

In ordinary parish settings, we have encountered people who are fearful of demonic activity in their lives, and others who are happily and obstinately ensconced in New Age practices.

https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/fr-john-corrigan-lessons-learned-from-an-exorcism-course/

Good report Ramon. Many wild rumors exist here thanks for the clarity.

 

[Tribble]

Do exorcism course instructors give demon-strations?

 

[Analogue Boy]

Do exorcism course instructors give demon-strations?

And do they use FeelThePowerpoint?

 

[ramonmercado]

Maybe try this on Cromer?

Holy chemtrails! Monsignor Rubén Darío Jaramillo Montoya, Catholic bishop of Buenaventura, Colombia, plans to drop holy water across the city to exorcise its demons. Apparently there have been 51 murders in just five months and the bishop wants to help the best way he knows how. From a Google-translated RCN Radio article:

https://boingboing.net/2019/06/21/catholic-bishop-plans-to-dump.html​

 

[GNC]

That's the best way he knows how? Is he nuts? Wouldn't his supposed skill with spiritual guidance and counselling be more effective than dripping tap water on a few rooves?

 

[ramonmercado]

Another disturbing case.

TUCSON, Ariz. (KOLD News 13/Gray News) - A Tucson man killed his son while trying to exorcise a demon from the 6-year-old, according to court documents.

Investigators said Pablo Martinez admitted to pouring hot water down the child’s throat on Thursday, Sept. 26. The incident happened at a home on the Pascua Yaqui reservation.

Investigators said Romelia Martinez, Pablo’s wife and the adopted mother of the child, was in the home during the incident.

Pablo told investigators he noticed his son, a first grader at Lynn/Urquides Elementary School in Tucson, had a demon inside him earlier in the week. Romelia allegedly also told investigators the child had been acting demonic.

Pablo said while giving the child a bath, he saw something evil inside his son and knew he had to cast it out.

Pablo allegedly admitted to holding the child under the faucet and claimed the hot water began casting the demon out. He said his son was under the water for 5-10 minutes.

https://www.wsaz.com/content/news/Authorities-Tucson-man-killed-son-while-trying-to-exorcise-demon-561803621.html

 

[Mythopoeika]

It does sound rather like the demon possessed the father. Awful tale.

 

[AlchoPwn]

Quote from the end of ramonmercado's Catholic Exorcism Article:
A terrible crisis of faith afflicts the modern world. Perhaps we should not be surprised if the process of exorcism takes longer than in ages past. That idea has moved me — and I hope it also inspires you — to make frequent acts of faith every day, chief among them: “Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief.”

So let's go over the end of that again... the prayer reads "Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief.". Now doesn't this sound like a prayer to god to help him stop believing? I mean, "Help my unbelief"? As an unbeliever I am finding this worrying, as clearly unbelief is being helped; is this rather poorly worded prayer being answered, but to the letter, not the intention ?