• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Face Blindness / Prosopagnosia

I of course updated the joke to 2006. The first time I came across it the references were something like 1870 and 1950 (I think).

And it may very well have come from the READERS DIGEST. In fact that's more likely than not.

In any case it DOES fit the discussion.
 
I'm still quite confused. I definitely read what was basically the same joke in a Readers Digest treasury. It was a simpler form of the joke (it was basically the tourist asking the Indian chief what was his favourite food: "eggs". 20 years later the tourist returns and greets the chief: "How", to of course recieve the answer "fried".)
 
[quote="GadaffiDuck" processing']
There does indeed appear to be a 'face area in the brain.

Welcome to the wonderful world of multiple sclerosis. Among the wildly varying random symptoms I get (it's different for everyone) is a great difficulty recognizing people out of context. I'm always blanking long-time friends and neighbors if I see them in the "wrong" place. This only happens in the real world. I can recognize pictures and people on TV etc no problem. So I can spot Samuel L Jackson in a bit-part in Law & Order even if I sometimesdo have to ask my husband which one's our son at school assemblies. :oops:

The severity ranges from people looking vaguely "wrong" but familiar, to total non recognition. Just as well I always had the social skills of an IT guy with ADHD. It's a bit disconcerting at times (see above) but a bit banal compared to some of my occaisional symptoms. Believe me, striding blithely past my sister-in-law is preferable to seeing auras.

Makes me wonderhow many other mystical powers are just brain misfires. But I guess that's for another thread.
 
mindalai said:
"I'm still quite confused. I definitely read what was basically the same joke in a Readers Digest treasury. It was a simpler form of the joke (it was basically the tourist asking the Indian chief what was his favourite food: 'eggs'. 20 years later the tourist returns and greets the chief: 'How', to of course recieve the answer 'fried'.)"

What's most likely is that you read the joke much more recently than I did, and thus have a much better memory of it.

I read the story way back in 1955, the summer before I entered high school, in a Readers Digest collection entitled "Fun Fair" (I think), so the story's probalby gone through a lot of revisions in my brain over the past 51 years.
 
I was around 11 years old and walking home with my young friends from a distant part of my home town. It was only about ten blocks, but steeply uphill on a broilingly hot July afternoon.

An old man pulled up in a car, opened the door, and informed me that he would give me and my friends a ride home.

"No, Sir," I replied. "I'm not allowed to accept rides from strangers, and I'd appreciate it if my friends didn't avail themselves of your offer either."

To which my friends responded, "You idiot, that's Mr. Wagner, your grandfather!"

This actually worked in my favor - Grandpa went out of his way to tell my Dad how proud he was of the way he'd raised me.
 
Back in Febuary I had a major hemorraghic stroke which resulted in the complete loss of speech and complete paralysis of my right hand side. Although the results were very severe initally, I'm making a good recovery as i can speak normally now and can walk and use my right arm quite well, and my physio is progressing well.

While I was in hospital though, I met other people who were effected far worse than myself, one of which was a man of similar age to me (mid thirties) who had severe aphasia and also prosopagnosia which only effected his left hand field of vision.

Basically, I could be talking to him, on his right hand side, and he could see me and recognise me perfectly well, but if I then moved over to his left hand side he wouldn't recognise my face anymore. This was quite distressing for him and his doctors told him that if the condition hasn't improved in the next two years he would be saddled with it for the rest of his life.
 
Very glad to hear you're getting better, lordboreal.
 
When faces have no name


Genetic condition has people struggling to recognize others

By Carey Goldberg, Globe Staff | June 14, 2006

New findings from researchers at Harvard and elsewhere suggest that a surprising number of people are face-blind, so bad at recognizing faces that they routinely snub acquaintances and have trouble following movie plots. In extreme cases, they may greet siblings as strangers and struggle to discern which child is theirs at school pick-up time.

The syndrome, known medically as prosopagnosia, was long thought to be a rare neurological curiosity that resulted from brain damage.

Research has begun to suggest that most face-blindness stems from genes, rather than brain injury, and that it is far more widespread than previously suspected, with up to 2 percent of the population affected to some degree.

A report by German researchers Thomas and Martina Grüter is expected to be published in a prominent American genetics journal within weeks. Harvard researchers announced May 31 that, by using different methods, they had come up with a similar number, though the data has not yet been published.

``It's a possible stealth condition," said Ken Nakayama, a Harvard psychology professor who led the research. ``There is no test for this when you're going to school."

Born prosopagnosics, whose brains are usually normal in other respects, often suspect that something is wrong, but cannot put a finger on it. The condition also goes undetected because born prosopagnosics have never seen faces any other way, so to them, it seems normal, Nakayama said.

But sometimes, the problem ``slaps prosopagnosics in the face, and they realize something's really wrong here," said Bradley Duchaine, a former Harvard researcher now at University College London. ``I hear parents who go to the day-care center, and for some reason their kid has changed clothes while there, and the parents have no clue who their child is, while the people working there think, `What is wrong with this parent?' "

Face-blind people can see faces perfectly well -- the eyes, nose, and mouth -- but seem to have trouble processing what they see and placing it into memory to be recalled again. In its rare, extreme form, prosopagnosics describe looking into the mirror and being unable to recognize themselves.

More often, they have trouble recognizing acquaintances and coworkers, social handicaps that can hurt their careers and their private lives. They tend to cope using a variety of ways to tell people apart, based on the sound of a voice, the style of clothing, or their walk. Or they ``adapt by being smiling and friendly to everybody," said Richard Russell, another Harvard researcher.

Researchers say public attention to prosopagnosia (pronounced proso-pahgNOsia, and often shortened to ``proso") may help people who have it, simply by making their lack of recognition more understandable to others.

Prosopagnosics are already debating whether schoolchildren should someday be tested for face-recognition problems.

``This is about as many children as have dyslexia," Thomas Grüter said, ``and these children are not really handicapped in any extensive way, but still they might become outsiders, and this is something that could be avoided easily, just by telling kindergarten or primary school teachers what to do and how to help them. "

There is no known cure for the condition, but researchers are experimenting with training that could, at the least, help those with face-blindness better recognize relatives, friends, bosses, and other key people in their lives.

One Cambridge prosopagnosic, who asked not to be identified because she works in public relations and fears that her career could be damaged if her problem were known, said she has learned never to say, ``Nice to meet you," but rather, ``Nice to see you." Still, it can be embarrassing and comical to her friends when, for example, she fails to recognize a man she has dated.

In the Harvard research, the 2-percent figure is just a ``best guess" at this point, Nakayama said, but it emerged when Harvard colleagues gave some 1,600 volunteers a variety of psychological tests, among them the ``Cambridge Face Memory Test," which Nakayama had been working on for years and published last fall.

(It is not publicly available because researchers do not want potential subjects to become familiar with it. Duchaine offered a link for readers who want to quiz themselves: www.icn.ucl.ac.uk/facetests/.)

Thomas and Martina Grüter, the German researchers, became interested in prosopagnosia when, after watching a television documentary on the subject, Martina realized that Thomas's quirks -- needing her to identify people for him at parties, for example -- amounted to face-blindness. His father had it, too.

They hunted down more families and Martina wrote her thesis on the genetics of face-blindness, which seems simple: it appears to involve a single, dominant gene, so a child can inherit prosopagnosia even if only one parent has it.

The Grüters tried to figure out how common the condition really was. They handed out questionnaires to some 800 Münster high school and medical students, asking about experiences that might suggest prosopagnosia, and interviewed students who seemed likely candidates.

From among 800, they confirmed that 17 had a significant level of face-blindness, to the point that it caused problems in their daily lives .

The Grüters' paper, written with Ingo Kennerknecht, was accepted last month by the American Journal of Medical Genetics and is scheduled to be published online in the next three weeks, Thomas Grüter said.

The Grüters are now interested in finding ways to screen children for prosopagnosia and then to help those who are identified without publicly identifying them.

What goes wrong in the brains of face-blind people is largely a mystery, said Dr. Marlene Behrmann, a brain scientist at Carnegie Mellon University.

The phenomenon plays into a major debate in neuroscience, she said, whether the brain is made up of a bunch of separate little modules that each perform a different function or whether all parts of the brain are potentially capable of performing any function. ``The truth will be somewhere in the middle, which is why it's a vigorous debate," she said.

If face-blind people have problems only with faces, that would tend to support the view of the brain as made up of task-specific modules, she said. But if, as some research suggests, the problem turns out to involve not only faces but also any objects that look alike, then it supports the idea that the brain uses more general visual processes.

Meanwhile, prosopagnosics such as Glenn, a Brookline cashier, say their lives are complicated both by their face-blindness and by the fact that nobody has heard of their condition.

``It would be really swell for me to be able to walk on the street in Harvard Square and say to somebody, `You know, I have prospagnosia,' and for them to say, `Oh, yeah, I know exactly what that is,' but I can't do that right now," said Glenn, who asked that his last name not be used for fear that someone might victimize him, knowing he could never identify them.

Glenn said he recognizes people by their trappings and context. He explains his problem to some people, asking them to realize that he may not recognize them when he meets them again.

Source
 
Saw someone I know in the pub earlier. He was 'in context', in the right place and with the right people, but he'd straightened his hair so I didn't recognise him until someone used his name.
 
Im not good at recognising faces but people dont exactly register on my brain anyway.
 
I sat eating breakfast in a downtown Cincinnati diner. Another patron came along and sat down next to me.

He asked to "borrow" my salt, pepper, extra napkin, knife, spoon, jelly, the front section of my newspaper. I passed him all the requested items.

Finally - "Why don't you just give me all your food and the money in your pockets?"

It was my brother. We'd lived together for the first 26 years of his life and I'd spent the weekend with him just a week or two previously.
 
Kondoru said:
"But you wernt looking at him if you were sat next to him?"

Agreed, Kondoru. But why didn't I recognize his voice, which I know so well?
 
I recently discovered I have this, the inability to recognise faces even of people I have known for a long time.
Anyone else? I think its a lot more common than previously thought.

In severe cases people cannot recognize the faces of their close family or even themsleves in a mirror. Some people cant distinguish actual facial features, others can, but find that all or most people pretty much look the same. So there are different degrees of Face Blindness ranging from mild to extreme.

Not being able to recognise people does make life rather interesting at times though!

Im also curious to hear from left-handers. I once read that that left-handed people often find it hard to recognise faces, but remember names and right-handed people tend to forget names but remember faces. Is there any truth in this?


Eta the Wiki Prosogagnosia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosopagnosia
 
I'm right-handed and hopeless at remembering names, but good at faces...
 
I'm left handed (and this, apparently, is Left Handers Day or something equally fatuous), and I would guess that I'm slightly better with names than faces, although I'm not so bad at either that I'd call it a condition.

I imagine that true prosopagnosia is, at best, very frustrating, when we're all expected to recognise more people every year than our ancestors would meet in a lifetime.

How severe is your case, MsQkxyz - what are the day-to-day problems for you, if you don't mind me asking?
 
Thanks for the replies so far.

Was it left-handers day & I missed it?! :eek:

Im still trying to work out how severe my case is. I estimate that I probably dont recognize for a second time about 90% of people I meet. Ive always hung out with freaky looking people so recognising friends was usually easy because most of them had unusual or coloured hair, piercings, tattoos and clothing which was easilly identifiable. Outside of that group, Im terrible!
I used to put it down to bad eyesight or not paying attention to people properly, or maybe my memory for that kind of thing was just bad. A couple of my friends appear to have prosopagnosia too, so I guess it didnt seem so bad to not remember faces.

I am ok with recognizing my family and most of my good friends.
I have trouble recognizing some of them if they cut, grow or dye their hair, grow a beard, go bald or put on a pair of sunglasses etc. I find I can recognise some people by the way they move or walk rather than by their faces.

I can recognise some people in certain places, like people who work in the local shops. I can tell who they are individually if they stay in their shops, but if they walk past me on the street Ill not have a clue who they are and if they say hello it will baffle me!

Another strange fact about face blind people is that most of us cant tell the difference between different types of cars too. Apparently facial and car recognition are both processed in the same area of the brain.

Day to day, its not a major problem. I started a facebook group so most of my friends now know about it, and I can refer anyone there. I tend to just tell people I meet that Im unlikely to recognise them again lol. Only one person has had a problem with that so far but im sure when I fail to recognise him a few more times hell finally get it :lol:

My worst case scenario is if a friend decides to pick me up (I mean like from the airport or something in a car) cos I cant identify cars or the face :lol:
 
I can recognise some people in certain places, like people who work in the local shops. I can tell who they are individually if they stay in their shops, but if they walk past me on the street Ill not have a clue who they are and if they say hello it will baffle me!
I think a lot of us experience that!

Was that the woman from the library, or Tesco, or did I see her before on a bus..?
 
MsQkxyz said:
I can recognise some people in certain places, like people who work in the local shops. I can tell who they are individually if they stay in their shops, but if they walk past me on the street Ill not have a clue who they are and if they say hello it will baffle me!

Another strange fact about face blind people is that most of us cant tell the difference between different types of cars too. Apparently facial and car recognition are both processed in the same area of the brain.
Like Rynner, I'd say that the first scenario is pretty common. See someone out of their usual context, and at best, it's "should I know them?", even if you see them every week in the local shop!

You second point, though, confirms that I don't have prosopagnosia - I'm embarrassingly good at recognising cars. In your airport case, I daresay I'd notice the vehicle before the person.
 
rynner2 said:
I can recognise some people in certain places, like people who work in the local shops. I can tell who they are individually if they stay in their shops, but if they walk past me on the street Ill not have a clue who they are and if they say hello it will baffle me!
I think a lot of us experience that!

Was that the woman from the library, or Tesco, or did I see her before on a bus..?

Hi.
I dont think I explained that properly. I meant that if I see them on the street, I wont recognise them at all, they go back to looking like complete strangers who Ive never seen before in my life.
 
I have it and was on a mailing list for the condition for a while. Actually, it was looking into the prosopagnosia that led to me getting diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. Apparently Aspies are more likely to be face-blind than normal.

I'm right-handed, but started out with a left-handed bias--I learned to do everything with my right hand because I was always sucking my left thumb as a baby.

I can write normal writing with my right hand and mirror writing with my left hand simultaneously.

On edit: Jane Goodall has prosopagnosia as well.
 
I'm a right-hander and can't remember names but I am great at faces, even faces of Z-level actors from 1942 movies ('Ooooh! Oooooh! That's what's his name -- the bad guy who had that little cameo in that movie about the Nazis by that director guy, you know who I mean! The one with the brown hair!). It can be a curse and a great embarrassment. Sometimes I can't remember the names of people I work with every day. I once forgot the name of my best friend.
 
Ornithocrat said:
I'm right-handed, but started out with a left-handed bias--I learned to do everything with my right hand because I was always sucking my left thumb as a baby.
.
With me it was because I broke my left arm rather spectacularly just as I was starting school.

I wouldn't sat I was completely face blind but I tend to rely on distinctive features rathr than a dave as a whole. I know people by their eyebrows or postures or voices. mostly. When my kids were performing in school assemblies,I has a hellish time picking them out of the crowd of identically dressed classmates. (I always waited till they ran to me at home time rather than risk grabbing a close match....)

I'm hopeless with cars,but I always assumed that was because I have no interest in them.

I never forget a name. It's attaching it to the right person that's the problem
 
Three times in one week I got a “it’s not just ME!” jolt. The most gratifying was discovering a condition called “propoganosia,” or “face blindness.”

Artist Chuck Close was on The Colbert Report recently and he talked about his inability to recognize faces. All my life I have had trouble recognizing people’s faces, and found that I would look for other ways to recognize them, such as by their voice or way of walking. My condition is far less severe than many who suffer face blindness, because I can eventually come to recognize faces I see often, although at first, and for some time, they need to be exactly where I first saw them. If I meet a new person at work, and then see her later in the restroom, I won’t know that I’ve already met her.

It’s hardest when I’m trying to watch movies; all my life, movies were all but impossible for me to make any sense of. I would drive my sister absolutely around the bend because I couldn’t follow the action once a scene changed. I always wondered how other people managed. When I heard Close describe his condition, I thought, “it’s NOT just me! It’s an actual condition!!” It tickled me all out of proportion.

:D
 
I had no idea Chuck Close had that condition. Fascinating as he's known for his portraiture, but it does put his method/process into perspective beyond the context of aesthetics.
 
I have it too - like the OP films are often very difficult for me to understand sometimes. For example if two actresses are brunette and similar build, I have been known to watch for over an hour, assuming they are both the same character.... much confusion taking place as a result.

Funnily enough, I'm more or less fine in real life. I do struggle if a friend has had a hair cut/change of colour but otherwise apart from my short sightedness, I manage.
 
Little_grey_lady said:
I have it too - like the OP films are often very difficult for me to understand sometimes. For example if two actresses are brunette and similar build, I have been known to watch for over an hour, assuming they are both the same character.... much confusion taking place as a result.

Funnily enough, I'm more or less fine in real life. I do struggle if a friend has had a hair cut/change of colour but otherwise apart from my short sightedness, I manage.

EXACTLY!! I didn't know other people were like this! I had the deuce of a time with the movie "The Departed," because while I know they're two different people, I could NOT tell Matt Damon from Leonardo DiCaprio in this film. And since the plot involved much double dealing, I was thoroughly lost.

It's pathetic how relieved I am to find other people who have this issue. :)
 
Back
Top