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Fall Of Lucifer

L

_Lizard23_

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
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Aug 23, 2001
Messages
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Can anyone please tell me where in the bible there are details of "the fall" - ie what Lucifer did and what god said and did to him etc?
Or is there not much detail about this in the bible?

Thank you
 
If I remember correctly the Bible says nothing about the fall of the devil from grace. AFAIK the casting out of Satan from Heaven is an allegory to resolve the question of "If God created everything good then why is there evil?" (thus God makes everything good, he makes angels and presumably gives them free-will whether to serve him or not.)
The word lucifer is Greek for Venus. There is a passage in Isaiah which compares a Babylonian king to the morning star. In medieval (?) times the parallel was drawn between the passage in Isaiah and the allegory of the fall and the rest is history.

This was written off the top of my head and as such may be a load of rubbish, but I'm sure someone'll chirp up and tell me if it is... ;)

DSSh
 
Lucifer means "being of light" or something similar. The Greek version of venus is Aphrodite, although it is possible the actual words mean soething different.

There was a TV series about the devil a while ago. I remember it saying that the early Jews had no Satan or Devil - the God of the Old Testament was both Good and Evil at the same time. Later on someone decided he should be only love and goodness and sugar and spice etc etc, which meant they had to think up another being to handle all the evil stuff.
 
It was Paradise Lost by John Milton which drew on
mainly apocryphal sources to elaborate the tale of
the Fall of Satan. And a very good read too, if you
weren't scared by it in school.

Blake reckoned that Milton was of the Devil's party
without knowing it. Since then some scholars have
suggested that Milton knew very well that the Devil
was the hero.

I recommend the truly weird Esoteric website where
a piece on Milton's religion can be found along with
many other very wonderful offbeat studies:

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu

Doesn't seem to be loading right now, though :(
 
Sorry, I should have been more explicit - I meant that Lucifer was an epithet of the planet Venus, rather than the goddess.

Yeah, that Esoterica website's great - Fanger's essay on names of power at that site is also worth checking out if you haven't already... and a transcription of Liber Lunae to boot, yum ;o)

DSSh
 
Lucifer means 'Lightbringer' (matches are sometimes called lucifers) and it is also one of the names for Venus. The only memtion of Lucifer I can actually find in the Bible is Isaiah 14, verse 12 - "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations." Some Bible scholars reckon this actually refers to Nebuchadnezzar.
In the OT at least, he was separate from Satan, who was created by God to do His dirty work (in Zechariah 3:1-2, Satan "stands at God’s right hand").
______________
Actually, I've just found a very informative page on the origins of Lucifer: http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml. Take a look.
 
Of course Lucifer has also been thwarted so that whenever a new religon was met, they could claim the god they worshipped was the devil. How he got horns and cloven hoofs apparently.
 
In Jewish theology, Satan refers to any of a variety of celestial beings who serve God by functioning as accusers or critics of man.
It was later, Christian religious leaders who associated them with their conception of evil.

Venus is the Roman version of the Greek Aphrodite, who is, herself, a versian of the Egyptian Isis, who is the Babylonian/Assyrian Ishtar. All are Fertility Goddesses and all are associated with the planet Venus, the morning star.

Lucifer (L. lux + ferre) means light-bearer. It was a commonly used name for the planet Venus as the morning star. In many ancient cultures, this was also a popular epithet for the ruling king. In Isaiah 14:12, the prophet is refering to the king of Babylonia. The majority of this chapter consists of the taunt-song which is Israel gloating over the downfall of her captors.

And, finally, matches used to be call 'lucifers' a long time ago because they were tipped with sulpher and phosphorus which would produce the devil's smell as well as the devil's light.
 
Thank you very much all!
I am no bible scholor and couldmn't get any further than Milton myself investigating this.
Despite being a fortean agnostic occultist (ahem) I have recently become increasingly fascinated with the philosophy of the bible and early its commentators ..... does this mean i am turning into a serial killer do you think ?!:D
 
... or is it my appalling typos that give the game away!!?
D'oh!
:(
 
DanJW said:
... the God of the Old Testament was both Good and Evil at the same time. Later on someone decided he should be only love and goodness and sugar and spice etc etc, which meant they had to think up another being to handle all the evil stuff.
Click to expand...

If not actually evil certainly capricous, moody and down-right bloody minded. Bear in mind the historical Abraham was coming out of Persia, and therefore the eary Zoroastrain dualist influences would still be there...

Unless you go with the Tom Waits' idea 'There ain't no Devil,just God when he's drunk.'

8¬)
 
Lucifer, Prince of Darkness, Name of Light

The name Lucifer is never used in the Hebrew or Jewish versions of the Bible. It was first used in the King James version (which also misidentified Jonah's 'big fish' as a 'whale'.

Lucifer comes from two Latin words:
luc meaning 'light' and
'ferros' meaning 'to bear'

Hence Lucifer means 'light-bearer' or similar.

The original reference can be found in Isaiah 14:12- 21

''King of Babylonia (symbol of evil), bright morning star...'

The Morning Star is Venus, leading to identifications with Venus, which by way fo mythology led to Aprodite and similar godesses.

It has been suggested by angelologists that the name 'lightbearer' referred to Satan (Lucifer's) attributes before his Fall.

However, evil has many names. Lucifer is but one. Don't forget Satan (adversary), Beezlebub (Lord of the Flies) and Tony Blair (Tony B Liar).
 
2 Peter 2:4 and Matthew 25:41 mention trouble up top, but the Apocryphal gospel of Bartholomew and Book of Enoch give the full skinny on the pride-fall caper.
 
Re: Lucifer, Prince of Darkness, Name of Light

Iankidd said:
However, evil has many names. Lucifer is but one. Don't forget Satan (adversary), Beezlebub (Lord of the Flies) and Tony Blair (Tony B Liar).
Click to expand...

Or Tony Blair MP (or PM) - I'm Tory plan B) :)
 
You might also want to look at the correlations between the legend of Promethus and the gift he gave/taught humanity (use of fire, first step towards technology/knowledge), and his subsequent punishment; and Lucifer, his temptation of Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (gift of knowledge to humanity), and his subsequent punishment. Both punishments were painful and involved loss of status as well, and since both are immortal beings, the punishments are eternal. Another similarity is the dual themes of light/fire.
 
A good resource

This on-line Bible is a good resource for serial killers, tambourine playing Salvation Army ladies, or just your average madman on the corner shouting out Bible verses (like myself).

You will note the one (& only) mention of "Lucifer" is in Isaiah.

Often his synonyms are used liberally including "devil" which the ancient Israelites were familiar with -- Jesus being tempted by "the devil" and Mary Magdalene having "seven devils" cast out of her being 2 biggies.

"Satan" is another synonym often used for Lucifer, as in revelation Jesus coming back (& boy is he po'ed) and binding Satan for 1000 years.

I realize our pentagram wearing, black-hair died, long finger nailed, robe wearing "Satanist" friends would COMPLETELY freak at me calling devil and Satan synonyms for Lucifer, but there you go.

BTW the Bible never calls the snake in the Garden of Eden anything but The Serpent. Just thought that was interesting

http://bible.gospelcom.net/
 
People who read the Bible seldom read anything else, sadly.

Questions of whether Lucifer = Satan or any other Devil
do not belong in literature so much as religion. Clearly most
stories just require an Evil One.

The uniqueness of the Bible has been gradually undermined
by the emergence of texts which need to be studied alongside, so that
its Authority is now a matter of assertion or sentiment.

The Bible is a collection of very interesting texts. But it is hard
to have any respect for people who know nothing of its context.

The "Inspired Word of God" has been used to do so much Evil, we
must seriously ask what God they think they serve? :eek!!!!:
 
must seriously ask what God they think they serve?
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that not only does the name Solomon have three different words for "sun" as his name (Sol, om, on) but that the Song of Solomon is very similar to an Egyptian mystery play about the relationship between Ra (solar god) and Isis (lunar goddess) combine that (and many other similar events) with the saints that Christianity gained down the years (although I suppose they are more of a Catholic thing these days) and a lot of people worship a whole lot more gods than they realise.
 
Yup, the Sol-Om-On notion is usually credited to the Masons.

But they claim not to be a religion. :hmph:
 
But isn´t it interesting how Satan simply means adversary. So basically if anyone is against them, they are evil and must be destroyed.
 
Well, first of all, if Song of solomon describes the relationship between Isis and Osiris then the two must've had one hell of a relationship...which they probably did.

Two, I've heard that before the Middle Ages, Ludicfer was a term used to describe Jesus Christ.

Jimmmy: you only point out references to the devil in the new testament. the "devil" or satan of the old testament is a good guy. A servant of the jewish god who carries out god's deeds. In the new testament the devil is portrayed as total evil.
 
Well, it seems most believers deems Satan falled during Adam´s time in Paradise.
 
Annasdottir said:
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning..."
Click to expand...

Remember, "Where there's blame, there's always a claim." One simple phonecall could have won Lucifer up to £10,000, and if he hadn't have been successful then he wouldn't have needed to pay out a penny.

Thank you for your kind attention.

This post was sponsored by Claims Direct.
 
I don't think Satan in the Book of Job could be seen as a good guy! Look at all the horror he put's Job through! And it's not at God's command but with his leave. The point of the story is that Job retains his faith despite God's letting Satan put him through the horror. Satan specifically requests this indulgence and,
"The LORD said to Satan, 'Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.'" Job 1:12
I don't think Satan's supposed to be the good guy here...
 
But surely this shows that at the very least he is God's servant and cannot do anything without his leave. Which means he is not really much of an adversary! (is? why am I writing about him as if he exists? such silliness)
 
Well this is one of the main themes the Book of Job addresses. Regardless of whether the anonymous author meant it as allegory or sacred history, the book conveys the following;
Incapable of contending with God hand to hand, power pitted against power, Satan is bent on frustrating the God-man relationship. He attempts with one crafty thrust both to assail God's beloved and show up God as a fool.
If we put aside our prejudiced religiousities or atheistic preconceptions we can enjoy and fully appreciate 'sacred' (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever!) literature as the authors intended
:)
 
Just as a comment, from memory, when Job confronts God over why he was selected, God basically tells him not to question His will. Not really ranking very high on the 'nice guy' scales... In fact He looks a bit of a git! Although, having said that, He does set Job back up again and sorts out the others who had chided Job, but it all seems a bit harsh over what really was a bet. You'd think God would know better...

Maybe I'm missing the point...



8¬)
 
Satan

There is evidence that Satan was actually an office held by a high ranking official in Jewish communities. This is where the term Devils Advocate comes from.

Satan, the garden of Eden story including Lilith and her sexual exploits ( ie - insisting that she go on top much to god's surprise and anger ) are all ( I think, and there will undoubtedly be someone out there who will correct me ) Babylonian myths and legends that have filtered through to bible classes and religious studies because they bear so much relevance to the stories that we have come to know from the bible of today.

Moggadon
 
harlequin said:
Just as a comment, from memory, when Job confronts God over why he was selected, God basically tells him not to question His will. Not really ranking very high on the 'nice guy' scales... In fact He looks a bit of a git! Although, having said that, He does set Job back up again and sorts out the others who had chided Job, but it all seems a bit harsh over what really was a bet. You'd think God would know better...

Maybe I'm missing the point...



8¬)
Click to expand...

Basically, I think it means that if you believe in and trust God no matter what, you'll come through ok.

Personally, it seems a bit far fetched....:rolleyes:
 
Re: Satan

Moggadon said:
There is evidence that Satan was actually an office held by a high ranking official in Jewish communities. This is where the term Devils Advocate comes from.

Moggadon
Click to expand...

I heard that too, though satan as a common noun did just mean opposer or adversary, so Saddam Hussein's use of the word was perfectly in order from his point of view.
The OT Jews had no need for a Devil as such because of the readiness of Jahweh to pour plague and pestilence down on their heads.

The Devil's Advocate is the chap who has the job of putting the case opposing a proposed canonization in a supposed trial situation, though I'd love to know how many cases get this far and are declined. Also, the title of the position does seem to prejudge the case; and then, is it fair to try a chap in absentia? i guess if the proposed saint put in an appearance that would make things far more clear cut.
 
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