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Fatima

Altres

Gone But Not Forgotten
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Joined
Feb 7, 2002
Messages
14
I am currently listening to the new Church album "After Everything Now This". On it there is a beautiful song called "Radiance" about children witnessing the Virgin Mary (who once appeared to my toaster but no one else was around to verify it) and the effect it had on them.

Anyway what actually happened? What happened to those children? Didn't some passage leak out the other year?

Any help would be appreciated to make sense of this gorgeous song,

Cheers,

Alt
 
If you look at the first accounts of the vision, none of them seemed to think it was Virgin Mary. It could actually just as well be an alien. It was only afterwards people decided it had been her.
 
I remember something about three prophecies, including the prediction of ww2, something else and the third super secret one that only the pope knows and won't tell. Although he made something up last year to shut everyone up, lying is a sin your holiness.
Anyway it was only ever the third child who wrote them down because the other two died from influenza before they learnt how to read or write.
 
Originally posted by Altres
the Virgin Mary (who once appeared to my toaster but no one else was around to verify it) and the effect it had on them.

So the bvm appeared in your toaster, was it one of those chrome jobs, in which case, a reflection perhaps.
 
Altres said:
(who once appeared to my toaster but no one else was around to verify it)
I'm sorry to luagh but thats the funniest thing I've heard in some time!:p
 
Altres said:
I am currently listening to the new Church album "After Everything Now This". On it there is a beautiful song called "Radiance" about children witnessing the Virgin Mary (who once appeared to my toaster but no one else was around to verify it) and the effect it had on them.

I had the same thing happen to me. I was severely hungover, and in retrospect, it was probably just a reflection of Mrs. Butterworth. But for three hours, I was a changed person.
 
Between 13th May and 13th October, 1917, Our Lady appeared to three peasant children at Fatima, near Cova da Iria in Portugal. The 13th October is the date when 70,000 people witnessed 'the sun dance'. The Three Secrets were 1) a vision of Hell, but a promise of peace (during WWI) 2) to pray for the conversion of Russia, else Russia would spread her errors throughout the world, and 3) a bishop clothed in white who falls to the ground apparently dead, under a hail of gunfire.

Pope John Paul II believes Our Lady of Fatima prevented his death by assassination on 13th May, 1981, 65 years after the first appearance of Our Lady at Fatima. The Pope says he was distracted by a flash of light coming from a picture of Our Lady of Fatima held by a member of the crowd, causing him to turn slightly as the bullet hit him, saving him from certain death. The bullet removed from the Pope was placed in a crown for the statue of Our Lady of Fatima at the shrine.

IIRC the remaining survivor of the visionaries is Lucia, who lives as a nun.
 
Thanks for the info Helen.

My toaster is now being visited by local imbiciles wanting to toast their own bread. Can you believe some people. For £10 though I am allowing them to touch it and was secretly thrilled when a local lass actually kissed it. I do allow the outside slices of loaves to be lightly browned however. My machine is a radiating heeler.

Alt
 
didn't the gunman shoot him cos the church wouldn't reveal the third prophesy.
 
What, you think The Church had something to do with it. They are just a band who wrote a song about it. They wouldn't shoot the Pope.

Altres
 
icon said:
didn't the gunman shoot him cos the church wouldn't reveal the third prophesy.

Take your pick. There are theories abound. Mehmet Ali Agca fired on the Pope because he was funded by the 1)Soviets, or 2)an offshoot of an extremely right wing Turkish political party called the Grey Wolves, or 3)the CIA in order to intensify the Cold War or 4) the Bulgarians, in order for the Soviets to have plausable deniability, or 5)the Italian intelligence agency SISMI, or 6) Italian secret socities like P2 or Ordine Nuova, or 7) some combination therein. Some said Agca did it to win support for a neofascist "putsch."

Agca himself has been less than forthcoming.
 
Miracle at Faitma/Lourdes: Fullfilled Or Not?

I think that was the one where the simple farm girts saw a vision of the Virgin Mary and were given three visions of the future?

I don't remember the whole incident, but wasn't the last prophocy supposed to be current? Or has it already been fullfilled? Or has it ever be exposed in it's entirety by the Church?

And opinions about what really happened?

(edit to add the Faitma bit to title - that may be the one)
 
I /think/ that was Fatima...... the prophecies I mean....

not my area!

kath
 
Wasn't it something about this being the last Pope?
 
IIRC, the so-called 'third secret' of Fatima was revealed fairly recently (a few years ago?), and was nothing of much in the way of any suprises. I think it may have been possibly construed as a prophecy of the Yugoslav Civil War, but as all such 'prophecies' tend to be rather whooly, it's probably anyone's guess. I think think it was speculated beforehand that it foretold the end of the world, etc. but as always one has to wonder why Christianity has any particular claim to say how the world will end ;)
 
Did a quick Google and came up with this
At May 13th 1917 three children of Portuguese shepherds declared that have seen an appearance of a beautiful lady out of the sky, who will later trusted them three secrets. Two these secrets are revealed, the third is still secret and sealed in the safes of the Vatican.
The three children, Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta said that have seen the appearance on a white cloud above a tree near the village of Fatima. The mystic lady asked them to return at the 13th of every month at the same place. A month later the children returned, now with 50 other villagers who have heard about the story. According to these villagers there was indeed a low cloud above the tree but no one has seen the lady. The children were the only ones who has seen the appearance.
A month later nothing changed and the children and the people who followed them were critised for cheating. But the children keep declaring that they spoke the truth.
In spite of the critics of the church authorities the children still keep returning to the three every month at the 13th. On a rainy day at October 13th of 1917 the mystic lady appeared for the sixth and last time to the children. A lot of believers were also present. The children were still the only one who can seen her and she declared that she was the Holy Maria. She declared the children her three secrets and appeared then. Suddenly, the rain stops and the clouds drove away to reveal the sun. The sun begans to turn around and seems to fall down ! witnesses declared later. The people thought that the world ends but the sun got his normal position back to the sky. By tradition it is told that this phenomenon happens twice.

What happened with the three secrets of Fatima ? Francisco and Jacinta never told about it and both died by the flu epidemic of 1918. Lucia wrote a report of her experiences and in request of the Holy See, she reported also the three secrets.
The first secret was a vision of the Hell, the second secret was the start of World War II.
On request of the Holy Maria the third secret may never to be published. The document of Lucia was sealed in an envelope till 1960 when the Pope opened it and read this. The Pope had read the revelations and was very frightened about it. He ordered to seal the documents and gave order that they may never be opened again !


What was the third secret of Fatima ? Nobody knows, only the children and the Pope. Maybe the end of the world ? Or the end of the Catholic church ? The return of Christ on earth ? We will see, maybe it will be published one day.
http://www.cleveleys.co.uk/paranormal/fatima.htm
 
One of the perks of being the Pope, then :)
 
According to my (usually faulty) memory, Lourdes was a poor village until a shepardess girl, Bernadette, had a vision at the local water spring. No prophesies that I know of, but a lot of money from tacky souveniers made the village a rich (but somehow poorer) place.

Fatima is a completely different kettle of fish, in a different country.

Jane.
 
*Supposedly* the first prophecy of Fatima was the end of WWI. The second, the rise of Bolshevism in Russia. And the third, the attempted assasination, of His Holiness, JPII, Bishop of Rome, 64 years to the day after the girls first had the vision (13 May 1981).

The most noteworthy thing about the whole affair is that literally thousands of people were there in October and claimed to see "the sun dance in the sky." Surely one of the largest joint visions, hallucinations, delusions, whatever you want to call it, of all time.
 
Our Lady of Fatima



FOR Filipino Catholics, the town of Fatima, in central Portugal, is a popular pilgrimage site. Fatima gained international renown because of what happened to three shepherd children. Beginning on May 13, 1917, the children saw a vision of a lady who reappeared five more times, on the 13th day of each month until October 13, except in August when they saw her on the 19th. On her last visit, the lady told the three children that she was “Our Lady of the Rosary.” She asked the children to pray the rosary each day. The lady told them to inform the local church authorities to build a church on the place of the apparitions. When the lady appeared to the children for the last time, on October 13, 1917, a huge crowd was present; it was estimated at over 50,000. Immediately after the children’s vision ended, the crowd witnessed some sort of solar phenomenon.


The peasant children, the only three to have visions of the lady, were Lucia dos Santos and her cousins, Francisco and Jacinto Marto. Lucia and her cousins had to endure frequent interviews by church and civic officials. In August of 1917, the children were abducted and threatened by some incredulous civic officials. Taken to Valinhos pasture, near Aljustrel, the children saw a vision of the lady on August 19. Eventually, in 1922, a formal church inquiry was initiated. The Bishop of Leiria was cautious, but finally on October 13, 1930, he accepted the children’s visions as authentic. Roman Catholic officials formally approved the growing devotion at Fatima.

Her two cousins died in 1919, but Lucia Santos lived into adulthood and become a Carmelite nun in Coimbra, in 1948. Lucia wrote two accounts of the visions, one completed in 1937 and the other in 1942. Construction of a large church was finished in 1953. It is known today as the Basilica of Our Lady of Fatima. The village of Fatima, named after the medieval Islamic princess, is a popular pilgrimage destination for Catholics coming from all over the world. Pope Paul VI celebrated a mass for world peace there in 1967, on the 50th anniversary of the apparitions, in the company of Lucia dos Santos.

In honor of the Blessed Virgin, many Filipino churches and religious institutions bear the name of Our Lady of Fatima. Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a major part of Filipino Catholic piety. Best wishes to all celebrating today’s fiesta. May faith in Christ and devotion to Mary continue to be dynamic elements of Filipino Catholic devotion.

http://www.mb.com.ph/OPED200405139397.html
 
Last Fatima Virgin witness dies

Greets

Monday, 14 February, 2005, 08:29 GMT

Last Fatima Virgin witness dies

The Pope believed the Virgin Mary of Fatima helped save his life
The last surviving witness to whom the Virgin Mary is said to have appeared in a series of apparitions in Portugal in 1917 has died aged 97.

Sister Lucia de Jesus dos Santos died at the convent where she had been living since the 1940s, the Roman Catholic Church said.

She was one of three shepherd children who claimed they spoke to the Virgin Mary near Fatima town over six months.

The apparitions turned Fatima into one of Catholicism's most revered sites.

The Virgin Mary is said to have revealed prophecies of key 20th Century events, including the end of World War I, the start of World War II and the rise and fall of Soviet communism.

The Church believes the third "secret", not unveiled until 2000, foretold the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul on 13 May 1981, the anniversary of one of the 1917 apparitions.

The Church announced that Sister Lucia died at her Carmelite convent at Coimbra in central Portugal on Sunday.

"She had been weak for several weeks and had not left her cell," said Coimbra Bishop Albino Cleto.

Her body is due to be laid out in Coimbra's cathedral before her funeral on Wednesday.

Prophecy speculation

Sister Lucia was just 10 when she and her two younger cousins, Francisco Marto and his sister Jacinta, are said to have seen the Virgin Mary above an olive tree near the central town of Fatima.

She was the only one who claimed to have heard clearly what the Virgin Mary said.

From left to right: Lucia Santos 10, Francisco Marto 9 and Jacinta Marto 7
The cousins were tending sheep when they saw the visions
While her cousins both died within three years of the apparitions ending, during the flu pandemic, Sister Lucia went on to write down what she had been told.

The first two parts of the prophecy were known for decades and interpreted as predicting the world wars.

But the third prophecy was kept secret and sparked much speculation about its content.

When the Vatican revealed its interpretation of the vision, the Pope credited the Madonna of Fatima with his survival following the 1981 attempt on his life by Turkish gunman Mehmet Ali Agca in St Peter's Square.

The Pope made several visits to Fatima - along with pilgrims from all over the world - and first met Sister Lucia during a trip in 1991.

He travelled to Fatima in 2000 to beatify Francisco and Jacinta, and steps are expected to be taken to beatify Sister Lucia as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4263279.stm

mal
 
Another report:

Last of 'Fatima vision' trio dies

Sunday, February 13, 2005 Posted: 2331 GMT (0731 HKT)



LISBON, Portugal (Reuters) -- Lucia de Jesus dos Santos, the last of three children who claimed to see the Virgin Mary at Fatima and who revealed a vision the Catholic Church said foretold the attempt to kill Pope John Paul II, died on Sunday, the Church said.

Dos Santos, 97, who later became a nun, was the eldest of the shepherd children who in 1917 told of seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary six times. She died at her Carmelite convent at Coimbra in central Portugal.

"She had been weak for several weeks and had not left her cell," Coimbra Bishop Albino Cleto told the Church's Radio Renascenca.

The Vatican interpreted one part of the visions as foretelling the attempt to kill the pope and Communism's persecution of Christianity. The apparitions took place the same year as the Russian Revolution.

The pope believes the Madonna of Fatima saved his life on May 13, 1981, when Turkish gunman Mehmet Ali Agca nearly killed him in St Peter's Square. The shooting took place on one of the anniversaries of the 1917 apparitions.

In a sign of gratitude a year after the assassination attempt, the pope had one of the 9mm bullets which Agca fired at him placed in the crown of the statue at Fatima.

"One hand fired the bullet and another guided it," the pope once said of Agca's attempt to kill him.

Dos Santos was said by believers to be the main recipient of prophecies from the Virgin about key 20th century events.

The first two parts of the prophecies were known for decades. The first saw a vision of hell, the second predicted the outbreak of World War Two.

But it was the third part, the so-called third secret of Fatima, which kept the world intrigued for more than 80 years.

The Vatican revealed its interpretation of the vision during the pope's visit to Fatima in May 2000 on the anniversary of the assassination attempt. One of her last public appearances was with the pope at Fatima.

Dos Santos's recollection of the third part of the visions, which she wrote down in 1944, saw "a bishop dressed in white (and) we had the impression that it was the Holy Father."

As the vision continued, the children say the pope reaching the top of a mountain where "he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him."

Before the Vatican unveiled the vision, papal envoys visited Dos Santos in her cloistered convent to seek her opinion of the Vatican's interpretation and her permission to reveal it.

"She repeated her conviction that the vision of Fatima concerns above all the struggle of atheistic communism against the Church and against Christians, and describes the terrible sufferings of the victims of the faith in 20th century," a Vatican document said in 2000.

The document went on to say: "When asked: 'Is the principal figure in the vision the Pope?' Sister Lucia replied at once that it was.

Dos Santos was born the youngest of seven children in a peasant family in Aljustrel, a village in central Portugal.

The events at Fatima unfolded against a backdrop of religious persecution under anti-clerical factions that ruled Portugal after the overthrow of the monarchy in 1910.

In 1916 she experienced her first vision, when an angel appeared to the children, she wrote in her memoirs.

On May 13, 1917, the Virgin Mary appeared to her and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marta on an oak tree. On her last appearance before an estimated 50,000 onlookers, witnesses claim to have experienced a 15-minute spectacle of bright lights and rainbow colours.

In her memoirs, dos Santos said the Virgin Mary appeared to the children six times in 1917. Jacinta and Francisco died in the influenza pandemic in 1919 and 1920.

The two were beatified, the last step to sainthood, by Pope John Paul during his Fatima visit in 2000.

One of her last visitors was actor Mel Gibson, director of the 2004 movie "The Passion of The Christ." He met her at the convent in July 2004 and gave her a DVD of his movie.

--------------------------
Copyright 2005 Reuters.

Source
 
New Italian book claims 3rd Fatima secret still hidden

Rome, Nov. 22 (CWNews.com) - A new book entitled The Fourth Secret of Fatima, by Italian writer Antonio Socci, questions whether a part of the message delivered by the Virgin Mary to the children at Fatima have been hidden by Church leaders for diplomatic reasons.

Socci claims that the famous "third secret," which was revealed in 1995 to describe an attack on a “bishop dressed in white,” is only a fragment of the full message. Socci bases his claim primarily on an analysis of the books Faith Report by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, and Crossing the Threshold of Hope, by Pope John Paul II (bio - news). To a lesser extent he analyzes homilies, discourses, and public documents by the two Pontiffs.

Rumors and theories about the "third secret" had circulated for years, until in May 2000 the content of the secret was disclosed by Pope John Paul II. The secret detailed a vision of the "bishop dressed in white" who was caught up in a battle against an atheistic system that oppresses the Church. That bishop "falls to the ground, as if dead, after a volley of gunfire." The vision apparently predicted the assassination attempt against John Paul II. Sister Lucia, who at the time was the sole surviving Fatima seer, confirmed in 2000 that the "bishop dressed in white" was the Pope. (Sister Lucia died in February 2005.)

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone (bio - news), who is now the Vatican Secretary of State, was the secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the time that the "third secret" was revealed. The Italian prelate visited Sister Lucia, discussed the vision with her, and reported that she had confirmed the accuracy of the Vatican report. In August of this year, when he was asked whether any part of the secret remained hidden, Cardinal Bertone answered with an emphatic No.


http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=47798
 
Early beatification process for Sister Lucia, Fatima visionary?

Fatima, Feb. 19, 2007 (CWNews.com) - During a visit to Fatima, Portugal, on February 18, the prefect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints raised the possibility that Sister Lucia, the last surviving Fatima visionary, might be cleared for beatification ahead of the usual schedule.

Cardinal José Saraiva Martins said that it was possible that Pope Benedict would give special permission for an early opening of the cause for Sister Lucia, who died in February 2005.

Ordinarily, Church rules stipulate that a cause for beatification cannot be opened until 5 years after the candidate’s death. That rule has only been set aside in two cases. Pope John Paul II (bio - news) authorized an early move to beatify Mother Teresa of Calcutta, and Pope Benedict allowed the immediate opening of a cause for beatification of Pope John Paul II.

The other two Fatima seers, Francisco and Jacinta Marto, were beatified by Pope John Paul in ceremonies that took place at Fatima on May 13, 2000-- the anniversary of the first apparition there.



http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=49345
 
...no. I'm Tessa Sanderson.
 
Fatima secrets fully disclosed, Cardinal Bertone insists

Rome, May. 14, 2007 (CWNews.com) - Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone (bio - news), the Vatican Secretary of State, has rejected charges that the Vatican is hiding some portion of the famous "third secret" of Fatima.

With the Catholic world observing the 90th anniversary of the appearances by the Virgin Mary to three Portuguese children at Fatima, Cardinal Bertone admitted his frustration over the continuing popularity of theories suggesting that the "third secret" involves an apocalyptic prophecy that the Vatican does not wish to disclose.

The "third secret" was part of the message the Virgin conveyed to the children at Fatima. While most of the message was made public soon after the apparitions, the "third secret" was confided to the personal care of the Pope, and remained hidden for decades.

A number of influential Catholic analysts offered their own theories on the content of the "third secret," and when the Vatican at last made the message public, some Fatima analysts claimed that the disclosure was incomplete. In addition to wild conspiracy theories, in recent months two prominent Italian journalists have written books offering their own reasons for believing that at least some part of the "third secret" remains hidden.

Cardinal Bertone-- who played a major role in the Vatican's public release of the Fatima message-- insists that these claims are "pure fantasy." In June 2001, the Vatican disclosed that the "third secret" was a prophetic vision, describing a struggle between the Catholic Church and a totalitarian system, culminating in an attempt on the life of the Pope. That vision, Pope John Paul II (bio - news) said, evidently referred to the attempt on his life, which took place on May 13-- the feast of our Lady of Fatima-- in 1981.

Troubled by rumors that the third secret had not yet been fully revealed, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith later issued a statement saying that the message had been disclosed in its entirety. Then-Archbishop Bertone, who was the secretary of the Congregation, announced in December 2001 that he had met with Sister Lucia, the cloistered Carmelite nun who was the sole surviving Fatima seer, and she had confirmed that "with absolute clarity and precision" that the full secret had been disclosed.

"Everything has been published; no secret remains," Sister Lucia said. Apart from that statement, which was released by the Vatican in December 2001, Sister Lucia maintained her public silence until her death in February 2005.

Cardinal Bertone has prepared a book-length interview about his conversations with Sister Lucia, entitled The Last Fatima Visionary. The book, with an introduction by Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news), is available (in Italian only) through the Vatican publishing house.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=51121
 
If it was about an assasination attempt, that would explain why it `was` a secret.

No conspiracy at all
 
I remember being perplexed by the write-up of the 3rd secret disclosure in FT a few years back. From memory, I recall a church spokesman saying that the 3rd secret seemed to refer to the Holocaust, but it didn't refer to the deaths of millions of people.

Huh? So what the Holocaust then??!!
 
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