Fictional Influences On Ufology
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Graylien
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Do reports of Elvis count?dreeness said:
I've come across a similar claim that when the first Railroads were built in the USA, Native Americans were prone to get flattened by trains because they simply couldn't see them.Xanatico said:
Rather unbelievable, IMHO.
Timble2
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Can't find a case on line, but I have seen cases reported where people claim to have met fictional aliens (e.g. vulcans, klingons etc.) and rapidly got a trip to a psychiatric ward.
If you are a real alien, disguise yourself as something off Star Trek or Doctor Who, if a human does catch sight of you the chances of them being believed are zero.
However, I've a hypothesis that a lot of the reptoid/reptilian alien conspiracy theories were heavily influenced by "V", they weren't a particularly prominent type of alien before that miniseries came out.
If you are a real alien, disguise yourself as something off Star Trek or Doctor Who, if a human does catch sight of you the chances of them being believed are zero.
However, I've a hypothesis that a lot of the reptoid/reptilian alien conspiracy theories were heavily influenced by "V", they weren't a particularly prominent type of alien before that miniseries came out.
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Reptile men in Flash Gorden too
feen5
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And there was one in the original Star Trek series as well. One of the most famous and best episodes too (imho). Kirk and a reptilian battle it out on a planet with no weapons except what they can find lying around. In the end i believe Kirk makes some sort of rocket launcher (maybe this is where the guys got the idea for Mcguyver as well).
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I think the alien was called a gorn. Yeah, Kirk makes gun powder and a primitive rifle/diamond launcher.
Proto A team too. Except Kirk kills things....
Proto A team too. Except Kirk kills things....
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Timble2 said:
And as far as reptilians go, it would be wrong not to mention the Silurians and Sea Devils from Doctor Who.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Devil
And of course the famous "Gill Man" from Creature From The Black Lagoon, and hundreds if not thousands more examples of reptilian humanoids from various films, tv shows, comic books, novels etc that have been mentioned over the years.
And therein lies the problem, writers have been dreaming up every conceivable kind of alien/monster/critter in so many formats for so very long, that there isn't any kind of creature that a witness could describe that wouldn't have some approximate facsimile somewhere in popular culture.
("So, you say that you came home to discover a giant amoeba cleaning your windows? Aha! That is almost exactly like 'The Neatness Blob' from Teenage Terror Tales, August 1932!")
(edited to add link)
link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Devil
And of course the famous "Gill Man" from Creature From The Black Lagoon, and hundreds if not thousands more examples of reptilian humanoids from various films, tv shows, comic books, novels etc that have been mentioned over the years.
And therein lies the problem, writers have been dreaming up every conceivable kind of alien/monster/critter in so many formats for so very long, that there isn't any kind of creature that a witness could describe that wouldn't have some approximate facsimile somewhere in popular culture.
("So, you say that you came home to discover a giant amoeba cleaning your windows? Aha! That is almost exactly like 'The Neatness Blob' from Teenage Terror Tales, August 1932!")
(edited to add link)
link
Timble2
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The point about "V" and the reptoids, is not that they were just reptilian aliens, but that they were disguised reptilian aliens with a secret plan to conquer the earth by stealth.
I don't think the reptiles/conspiracy angle had been given such prominence before and the other fictional example reached nothing like the audience that "V" did. "V" didn't originate the idea, but it brought it to a wider audience.
I don't think the reptiles/conspiracy angle had been given such prominence before and the other fictional example reached nothing like the audience that "V" did. "V" didn't originate the idea, but it brought it to a wider audience.
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Actually. You are probably right. Ikey boy could only have started his wibbling a few years after V. Aha, the psychological link has been established. Okay, now explain his colour choices... :lol:
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He does actually suggest people watch V to get an idea of what is really going on.
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Mighty_Emperor said:
Watching V won't even clue you in to what's going on in V.
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Hey. V had Freddy Krueger. Yay! Clearly, nightmares of alien lizards wearing purple mean that Jews, who may be nazis, infiltrated communist/western banking in order to provide an anti-catholic masonic group with enough ammunition to bring down the british monarchy. Gosh, don't you people know nuthin'? :lol: BTW, did I mention Kennedy? No? okay, he wasn't a lizard but an amphibian alien...however, we are going to need a separate forum for that one.
Guess my stance...
Guess my stance...
Graylien
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Rather tedious V was, I thought. I can, however, recommend another of Icke's favourites - John Carpenter's They Live. Does it show you what's really going on? I don't know. I'm still trying to get my hands on a pair of Rowdy Roddy's sunglasses.
I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum...
I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. And I'm all out of bubblegum...
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They live was brilliant. Also must recommend 'hell comes to frog town'. Roddy Piper...Rowdy Roddy Piper....Ah yes.
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Thanks for the direct reply gadaffiduck, i can definatley see the sense in the link between influence and the vague nature of ufo sightings. I would like also like to say that i apprecitae the informed and thoughtful nature of the reply as many of my posts seem to get a kind of thoughteless flip off.
I dont quite agree with the conclusion as there have been many high strangeness cases(the mince pie marshens,the kentuky and pascagula cases and the whole mothman incident) that seemed to be a long way from from any kind of media influence. I suppose my main point is that most people have a rational inclination that scepticaly minded people over look. I think the 'sociological perspective' becomes a kind of crutch,like psychologists claiming hallucination, when all other explantaions fall short.
I dont quite agree with the conclusion as there have been many high strangeness cases(the mince pie marshens,the kentuky and pascagula cases and the whole mothman incident) that seemed to be a long way from from any kind of media influence. I suppose my main point is that most people have a rational inclination that scepticaly minded people over look. I think the 'sociological perspective' becomes a kind of crutch,like psychologists claiming hallucination, when all other explantaions fall short.
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Reasonable. I suppose all belief patterns e.g. psychology, sociology, saucerology etc come down to a final explanation (as mentioned above). However, with the cases you have described, there are always earlier versions of folk stories. For example, think of the iconic nature of mothman...wings, glowing eyes, deaths etc. I am not sure I can offer you a reason why these things occur with regularity, but I still think that in many cases, psychology, while not having the definitive answer, at least offers the most rational investigative medium. However, as a good fortean (and psychologist too), I would never fully discount any non psychological explanation out of hand (although I may put it on a backburner) 
gandhidave said:
Two (or was it one?) policeman was terrified by a "flying witch up a tree" in a South American country in the last few months. I've tried searching on this site, but my piss poor recollection of the event has yielded no hits, so far. I'm sure buffy is available on cable over there...
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Anonymous
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Please find that story.
GadaffiDuck said:Please find that story.
Found it on the www:
Here's the RENSE take:
http://www.rense.com/general48/entity.htm
Here's a copy of the original news story, with a translation underneath
http://www.homestead.com/WinterSteel/Of ... acked.html
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Anonymous
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Great fun! So, going back to the article...he claims she floated above the ground, but within a few lines, she has landed on the ground. The black eyed bit sounds a bit like an alien hybrid or one of those black eyed kids stories. I reckon he hit somebody and ran...coz I'm an old cynic :lol:
Hello. Very interesting discussion here, I had to jump in. If we were to perhaps examine the phenomena like detectives examining a crime scene for the first time, we might be able to look at this period differently. Hindsight is perhaps still blinding us to the givens of the original events and media reports?
I've read only one of the following books, the one edited by Haines, but I think these might interest you. In “Cultural Factors” by Simon from the study “UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist” from 1929 to 1948 the films depicted, in the craft’s column, are versions of the rocket; it was in 1949 that we get the first saucer
in the movie "The flying Saucer", at least as far as this study, with one exception.
If the first saucer sighting influenced this particular film listed as the only one showing a saucer (defined as such in the title) at that date, then as was mentioned by a few previous posters, reality, media reports, the flaps etc. is influencing the fiction, at least in films, at this date. Previous to this date you have rockets, cannons, propeller, anti-gravity craft, even a bubble as far back as 1906. But between 1906 to 1948, according to Simon, nothing like a saucer appears in the movies—there is a top shaped craft in 1948! Except oddly he has under craft for a 1938 Flash Gordon a “rocket/saucers” but I’m not quite sure I recall this—is this negligible?
Why 1949 as the first, as it were, pure depiction of a saucer. Did it coincide with Arnold’s very public sighting or did it precede it? I think Arnold was 47?
As to the question of the magazines being the source for some of this, I’m very skeptical myself. I can’t say I have seen all the magazine covers and inside illustrations. But as was mentioned by others here, there is this bothersome contradiction in that not enough supposedly “hysterical” people see robots, mad-scientists, fiends, naked women in guazy nightgowns, and a variety of strange monsters, perhaps more prevalent on the magazine covers, why did this strange form of mass hysteria supposedly created by both science fiction films and pulp magazine covers not also create even weirder hallucinations, misidentifications, of people, say, for example, at that time there was no mass sightings of men in gorilla suits or King Kong? Nobody saw giant lions after the sequel to Kong, maybe at the local madhouse level but not wide spread. No one saw as they did and do Bigfoot nor a Tarzan the ape man, say. Indeed, as was stated here, the correlation between fiction and films and the phenomena is very problematical in terms of getting a handle on what happened.
Of course to thow a monkeywrench into this, you have Orson Welles' broadcast which might've suggested to larger numbers of people the idea of invasion from outerspace and the movies and pulps triggered the focus there--aerial flight being still very new and important at the time. So the fixation in in the air, as it were. I'm skeptical of this.
Here are the books, perhaps you haven't heard of them.
The list of science fiction films with themes of either
Visitors from space, or traveling to space or both presented by
Armando Simon in "UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist"
(1979) (edited by Richard F Haines) at page 53 (in Chapter 3) of
the Scarebrow Press hardback edition.
The list entitled "Alien Inspired Movies" presented by
Kurland, Michael in his "The Complete Idiot's Guide to
Extraterrestrial Intelligence" (1999) at page 290 (in Chapter
28) of the Alpha Books softcover edition, and included in
Appendix E at pages 315-316.
The list entitled "A Checklist of ETs in the Cinema"
presented by Chris Boyce in in his "Extraterrestrial Encounter"
(1979) at page 164 (in Appendix 1) of the David & Charles
hardback edition, at page 152 of the 1980 revised NEL paperback
edition.
I've read only one of the following books, the one edited by Haines, but I think these might interest you. In “Cultural Factors” by Simon from the study “UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist” from 1929 to 1948 the films depicted, in the craft’s column, are versions of the rocket; it was in 1949 that we get the first saucer
in the movie "The flying Saucer", at least as far as this study, with one exception.
If the first saucer sighting influenced this particular film listed as the only one showing a saucer (defined as such in the title) at that date, then as was mentioned by a few previous posters, reality, media reports, the flaps etc. is influencing the fiction, at least in films, at this date. Previous to this date you have rockets, cannons, propeller, anti-gravity craft, even a bubble as far back as 1906. But between 1906 to 1948, according to Simon, nothing like a saucer appears in the movies—there is a top shaped craft in 1948! Except oddly he has under craft for a 1938 Flash Gordon a “rocket/saucers” but I’m not quite sure I recall this—is this negligible?
Why 1949 as the first, as it were, pure depiction of a saucer. Did it coincide with Arnold’s very public sighting or did it precede it? I think Arnold was 47?
As to the question of the magazines being the source for some of this, I’m very skeptical myself. I can’t say I have seen all the magazine covers and inside illustrations. But as was mentioned by others here, there is this bothersome contradiction in that not enough supposedly “hysterical” people see robots, mad-scientists, fiends, naked women in guazy nightgowns, and a variety of strange monsters, perhaps more prevalent on the magazine covers, why did this strange form of mass hysteria supposedly created by both science fiction films and pulp magazine covers not also create even weirder hallucinations, misidentifications, of people, say, for example, at that time there was no mass sightings of men in gorilla suits or King Kong? Nobody saw giant lions after the sequel to Kong, maybe at the local madhouse level but not wide spread. No one saw as they did and do Bigfoot nor a Tarzan the ape man, say. Indeed, as was stated here, the correlation between fiction and films and the phenomena is very problematical in terms of getting a handle on what happened.
Of course to thow a monkeywrench into this, you have Orson Welles' broadcast which might've suggested to larger numbers of people the idea of invasion from outerspace and the movies and pulps triggered the focus there--aerial flight being still very new and important at the time. So the fixation in in the air, as it were. I'm skeptical of this.
Here are the books, perhaps you haven't heard of them.
The list of science fiction films with themes of either
Visitors from space, or traveling to space or both presented by
Armando Simon in "UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist"
(1979) (edited by Richard F Haines) at page 53 (in Chapter 3) of
the Scarebrow Press hardback edition.
The list entitled "Alien Inspired Movies" presented by
Kurland, Michael in his "The Complete Idiot's Guide to
Extraterrestrial Intelligence" (1999) at page 290 (in Chapter
28) of the Alpha Books softcover edition, and included in
Appendix E at pages 315-316.
The list entitled "A Checklist of ETs in the Cinema"
presented by Chris Boyce in in his "Extraterrestrial Encounter"
(1979) at page 164 (in Appendix 1) of the David & Charles
hardback edition, at page 152 of the 1980 revised NEL paperback
edition.
Graylien
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A disc-shaped spacecraft from 1930:
I suppose one way to gauge the influence of pulps versus films might be to compare their circulation figures with cinema attendances for early sci-fi serials.
However, you might also argue that the pulps - with their gaudy, eye catching covers (which often had little to do with the stories inside)- were the main source of sci-fi images for non-sci fi fans. Even people who would never dream of watching a Buck Rogers serial or actually reading a pulp could hardly help noticing the covers when they went into the newsagents to buy the latest Pipe Smoker's Monthly.
As far as mad scientists and gauzy nightgowns go, you could also argue that these elements actually have entered mainstream Ufological belief. The greys themselves, with their strange laboratories and half-human hybrids, are the mad scientists, while their obsession with reproduction mirrors the sexually-charged images seen on pulp covers.
Here's one typical example (from 1953):
Now, the image may not have anything to do with any of the stories inside the magazine, but it tells a story in itself.
The scene is taking place at night, and the woman's flimsy apparel inevitably raises the spectre of sex. The alien is obviously taking the woman somewhere (presumably into one of the spacecraft hovering overhead), and the fact that she is unconscious indicates that he is taking her against her will.
Not a million miles removed from the standard night-time abduction scenario, in which the victim is paralysed, removed from their bedroom, and effectively raped by evil mad-scientist greys.
I suppose one way to gauge the influence of pulps versus films might be to compare their circulation figures with cinema attendances for early sci-fi serials.
However, you might also argue that the pulps - with their gaudy, eye catching covers (which often had little to do with the stories inside)- were the main source of sci-fi images for non-sci fi fans. Even people who would never dream of watching a Buck Rogers serial or actually reading a pulp could hardly help noticing the covers when they went into the newsagents to buy the latest Pipe Smoker's Monthly.
As far as mad scientists and gauzy nightgowns go, you could also argue that these elements actually have entered mainstream Ufological belief. The greys themselves, with their strange laboratories and half-human hybrids, are the mad scientists, while their obsession with reproduction mirrors the sexually-charged images seen on pulp covers.
Here's one typical example (from 1953):
Now, the image may not have anything to do with any of the stories inside the magazine, but it tells a story in itself.
The scene is taking place at night, and the woman's flimsy apparel inevitably raises the spectre of sex. The alien is obviously taking the woman somewhere (presumably into one of the spacecraft hovering overhead), and the fact that she is unconscious indicates that he is taking her against her will.
Not a million miles removed from the standard night-time abduction scenario, in which the victim is paralysed, removed from their bedroom, and effectively raped by evil mad-scientist greys.
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Anonymous
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Great images grey! Now that is how sci fi covers should look!
Agree with your analysis too.
Agree with your analysis too.
I've always assumed (often a mistake in itself, i find) that Ken Arnold's 1947 sighting was the influence for the 'flying saucer' fetish/ fixation, but that the odd sighting of this type of craft occured before that...
...along with sightings of various other types of crafts of all shapes and sizes
I also thought that what people described was based simply on what they (or the public in general) knew at the time, and that as the phenomenon/culture surrounding it evolved so did peoples ideas, and thus their descriptions
So basically, the people described based on their knowledge of flight, then the media is based on this, which influences sightings, which further influences descriptions of crafts, and so on....
Its the same with the 'greys' sightings of recent times. Before Whitley Striebers 'Commnunion' they were hardly sighted at all, but now they are in the majority.
...along with sightings of various other types of crafts of all shapes and sizes
I also thought that what people described was based simply on what they (or the public in general) knew at the time, and that as the phenomenon/culture surrounding it evolved so did peoples ideas, and thus their descriptions
So basically, the people described based on their knowledge of flight, then the media is based on this, which influences sightings, which further influences descriptions of crafts, and so on....
Its the same with the 'greys' sightings of recent times. Before Whitley Striebers 'Commnunion' they were hardly sighted at all, but now they are in the majority.
Graylien
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The important thing about Arnold is that he didn't originally claim that he saw flying saucers: he simply said he saw a group of unknown aircraft which flew with a bouncing motion "like a saucer would if you skipped it across the water."
Somewhere along the line, a pressman coined the phrase "Flying Saucer", which in turn led to other journalists using the rather more serious-sounding term "Flying Disc".
Arnold himself didn't seem too sure exactly what shape his UFOs were. His first drawings were indeed vaguely disk-like:
...but then he came up with a second - rather elegant - design that resembled a flying wing:
...but to confuse matters even further, the widely-read edition of Fate which covered the Arnold sighting featured a wildly inaccurate portrayal of the event. The illustration depicted a pair of huge golden discs hovering ominously over Arnold's tiny plane:
...an image which was later reproduced on the cover of Arnold's own book (co-written with pulp-meister Ray Palmer) and entitled The Coming Of The Saucers (Not The Coming of the Boomerang-Shaped Whatsits, which would admittedly have been a less snappy title).
All rather convoluted.
Somewhere along the line, a pressman coined the phrase "Flying Saucer", which in turn led to other journalists using the rather more serious-sounding term "Flying Disc".
Arnold himself didn't seem too sure exactly what shape his UFOs were. His first drawings were indeed vaguely disk-like:
...but then he came up with a second - rather elegant - design that resembled a flying wing:
...but to confuse matters even further, the widely-read edition of Fate which covered the Arnold sighting featured a wildly inaccurate portrayal of the event. The illustration depicted a pair of huge golden discs hovering ominously over Arnold's tiny plane:
...an image which was later reproduced on the cover of Arnold's own book (co-written with pulp-meister Ray Palmer) and entitled The Coming Of The Saucers (Not The Coming of the Boomerang-Shaped Whatsits, which would admittedly have been a less snappy title).
All rather convoluted.
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Now this is interesting Thanks grey, the pictures from the era really help. I'd not seen the arnold drawings before (if had, have forgotten them). It is interesting to see the evolution of a myth (I don't doubt arnold saw something), but the transmutation via media, to me, seems similar to a mythic story, and it evolves over time...sort of like an urban legend.
Thanks grey, the pictures from the era really help. I'd not seen the arnold drawings before (if had, have forgotten them). It is interesting to see the evolution of a myth (I don't doubt arnold saw something), but the transmutation via media, to me, seems similar to a mythic story, and it evolves over time...sort of like an urban legend.(Serials were shown as part of the program at cinemas, that is: newsreel, then cartoon, then serial episode, then main feature.)
(The image of the beautiful nearly-naked girl, shrieking or swooning as she was carried off or otherwise tormented was a ubiquitous theme for lurid pulp magazine cover art. Her tormentors were occasionally "Martians" or other monsters, but more often mobsters, gorillas, Chinese fiends, Mexican banditos, pirates, African natives, lusty Arab sheiks, Nazis, Russkies, mad scientists, etc.)
link to image
link to image
link to image
link to image
(The alleged impact on the ufological imagination of generic saucer-craft from pulp magazines / Buster Crabbe serials contrasts starkly with the utter non-impact of vastly more prevalent motifs like Luke Skywalker's X-wing fighter, or the Starship Enterprise, etc.)
(The image of the beautiful nearly-naked girl, shrieking or swooning as she was carried off or otherwise tormented was a ubiquitous theme for lurid pulp magazine cover art. Her tormentors were occasionally "Martians" or other monsters, but more often mobsters, gorillas, Chinese fiends, Mexican banditos, pirates, African natives, lusty Arab sheiks, Nazis, Russkies, mad scientists, etc.)
link to image
link to image
link to image
link to image
(The alleged impact on the ufological imagination of generic saucer-craft from pulp magazines / Buster Crabbe serials contrasts starkly with the utter non-impact of vastly more prevalent motifs like Luke Skywalker's X-wing fighter, or the Starship Enterprise, etc.)
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Erm... Jim Kirk's Enterprise was your classic Saucer and 3 cigar-shaped objects in formation.:shock:
I'm having a flashback to an episode where the Enterprise (for some reason which escapes me) is in the atmosphere in the 1960s (for some reason which escapes me) and an interceptor pilot pretty much describes the old girl in those terms.
Just wonder if Matt Jeffries used old UFO sightings as inspiration...
I also can't help but wonder if the 1974 TV movie "The Disappearance of Flight 412" starring Glenn Ford isn't the teeniest bit responsible for some of the UFO coverup conspiracies. Written by George Simpson and Neal R. Burger (also writers of novels "Thin Air" - which if rumours are true help Berlitz to flesh out his version of events vis-a-vis the Philadelphia Experiment, and "Ghost Boat" - the source for the recent David Jason haunted submarine TV miniseries) it tells the story of a USAF radar test being buzzed by UFOs which result in the disappearance of two jet fighters. The radar plane (the eponymous Flight 412) is diverted to an isolated field while the men in plaid - sorry no black suits in the 70's - cajol, coach and intimidate the crew into denying anything went wrong. Glenn Ford plays the commander of the crew, trying to get his boys back before the government covers it up.
Filmed in faux documentary style it is presented in a "this could actually happen" way. It is available on DVD if you're interested.