Flight 19 (5 Avengers Disappear; 1945; Bermuda Triangle)

[rynner2]

Memorial Service for Bermuda Triangle Lost Patrol

The legend of the Lost Patrol popularized the myth of the Bermuda Triangle, the area between Fort Lauderdale, Bermuda and Puerto Rico where dozens of boats and planes have mysteriously vanished. Tales of a supernatural phenomenon or otherworldly abduction have long surrounded what is still considered one of the biggest mysteries in naval aviation history.

And this from National Geographic: a longish examination of the various possibilities. It also gives links to other Bermuda Triangle sites.

The National Geographic link is dead. The article is archived at the Wayback Machine.
Here is the relevant text about Flight 19 ...

Disappearance of Flight 19

The legend of the Bermuda Triangle will be forever tied to the fateful flight that took place on December 5, 1945.

Flight 19 originated at the U. S. Naval Air Station in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Five TBM Avenger Torpedo Bombers carrying 14 men took off at roughly 2:10 in the afternoon that day on a routine navigational training mission.

Led by instructor Lieutenant Charles Taylor, the assignment was to fly a three-legged triangular route with a few bombing practice runs over Hen and Chickens Shoals.

Taylor, in an age before the Global Positioning System (GPS) became commonplace for navigation, got hopelessly lost shortly after the bombing run. Pilots flying over water in 1945 had to rely on compasses and knowing how long they'd been flying in a particular direction, and at what speed.

Both of the compasses on Taylor's plane were apparently malfunctioning. Transcripts of in-flight communications suggest he wasn't wearing a watch. There are no landmarks in the middle of the ocean.

The planes flew in one direction then another as balmy daylight turned to stormy seas in the darkness.

Taylor is heard formulating a plan; as soon as the first plane's fuel level dipped below 10 gallons, all five planes were to ditch at sea.

The Avenger was known as an extremely rugged plane. Pilots sometimes called them "Iron Birds" or Grumman ironworks, said Mark Evans, a historian at the Naval Aviation History branch of the Naval Historical Center.

"They were built like tanks," he said. "Time and again they'd come back from battle all shot up and still functioning. Pilots loved them."

They were also very heavy, weighing more than 10,000 pounds (4,535 kilograms) empty. When ditched, the Avenger would go down hard and fast. The possibility of anyone surviving a landing in high seas was slim, the chance of surviving the night in the cold waters was nil, the likelihood of the wreckage making a quick descent to the bottom was high.

A massive land and sea search was mounted, but neither bodies nor wreckage were ever found.

Adding to the tragedy, one of the rescue planes also disappeared along with its 13-man crew. Their plane, a PBM Mariner, was nicknamed the "flying gas tank"; the slightest spark or a lit match could cause an explosion. A ship in the area reported seeing a huge fireball and crossing through an oil slick at the exact time and place where the plane would have been. The Navy halted production of that plane in 1949.

In the Navy's final report, the disappearance of Flight 19 was blamed on pilot error. Taylor's family protested and, after several reviews, the verdict was changed to "causes or reasons unknown."

SALVAGED FROM THE WAYBACK MACHINE: https://web.archive.org/web/2003020...news/2002/12/1205_021205_bermudatriangle.html

 

[Jerry_B]

... I've always thought that the infamous Flight 19 disappearance was down to navigational error by novice pilots, leading to the whole flight having to ditch due to lack of fuel far out to sea.

 

[Anonymous]

Flight 19/Bermuda Triangle programme the other night

Apologies if a thread already exists, i can't seem to find one, but feel free to merge if there is...

There was a documentary on BBC1 on Saturday night about the Bermuda Triangle and specifically the fate of Flight 19, a flight of 5 US Navy Avengers which went missing without trace on a routine flight in 1945.

Apparently a team with a submersible has found 5 sunken Avengers clustered together near where they thought Flight 19 should have sunk, but examination of the numbers on the tailfins proved they were not Flight 19, but in fact 5 planes which sunk on different occasions and only coincidentally ended up so close together.

There was some other guy with a theory that rather than being mysteriously blown off course and all their compasses malfunctioning, the pilot in charge of the flight actually had some weird mental block that made him think he was in a different place and going in a different direction to where he was, due to the coincidental similarity between some islands in the Bahamas and some other idslands in the Florida Keys. Sounded quite convincing, but not sure whether it was a debunking of the Bermuda Triangle or not...

Also they theorised some of the mysterious boat sinkings could be due to large amounts of gas bubbling up from under the sea bed and altering the density of the water, which they demonstrated with a test boat.

Anyone else see it? Opinions?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Flight 19/Bermuda Triangle programme the other night

Apparently a team with a submersible has found 5 sunken Avengers clustered together near where they thought Flight 19 should have sunk, but examination of the numbers on the tailfins proved they were not Flight 19, but in fact 5 planes which sunk on different occasions and only coincidentally ended up so close together.

Now, that was odd. The same type of plane, different flights, different accidents, different years even, and all ending up so close together, 785ft down, that the investigators (thinking they were all from the same flight), were speculating on how they'd all managed to crash dive into the sea at precisely the same time, virtually in formation.

Quite a coincidence.

 

[Jerry_B]

'The Flight 19 Appreciation Group' website

I just found out about this:

flight19appreciationgroup.org/
Link and website are dead. No archived version found.

 

[Lord_Brisbane]

As I'm sure many of you know about the famous "flight 19" that dissapeared in the area that is known as the "bermuda triangle". Anyhoo, putting aside what actually happened and the myths associated with it, I have run into trouble in researching it.

A few questions:

What were the names of the other crew members in the flight? Taylor's name crops up fairly consistantly, but thats about it. What were the names of the other men in the flight?

Were they armed with live bombs, and live ammunition in their machine guns, were these expended after the training run?

What personal artifacts and gear would have been carried by the crew? Such as service pistols, survival kits life jackets etc?

Many thanks.

 

[stu neville]

OK, crew wise, the crew of Flight 19 are cited here:

FT. 28 Lt. Charles .C. Taylor , USNR
G.F. Devlin, AOM3c, USNR
W.R. Parpart, ARM3c, USNR

FT. 36 Capt. E.J. Powers, USMC H.Q.
Thompson, Sgt., USMCR
G.R. Paonessa, Sgt., USMC

FT. 117 Capt. G.W. Stivers, USMC
R.P. Gruebel, Pvt., USMCR
R.F. Gullivan, Sgt., USMC

FT. 81 2nd Lt. F.J. Gerber, USMCR
W.E. Lightfoot, Pfc., USMCR

FT. 3 Ens. J.T. Bossi, USNR
A.H. Thelander, S1c, USNR
B.E. Baluk, JR., S1c, USNR

No trace of the crew of the rescue flight.

Will see what I can dig up on the equipment, etc.

 

[Lord_Brisbane]

Thanks, you've been a great help.

 

[Jerry_B]

For the other technical points, try posting a question at the 12 O'Clock High Allied Air Forces Forum. There are alot of knowledgable folks there.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

No trace of the crew of the rescue flight.

That particular rescue plane apparently had this rather nasty habit of leaking small amounts of petrol into the cabin.

This was a day when nearly everybody smoked, especially servicemen.

So one or more crew members lit cigarettes.

KA-BOOM!!

 

[rynner2]

The Bermuda Triangle: Whatever became of the myth
Seventy years after the disappearance of five planes in the Atlantic, Giles Milton investigates one of the world’s most enduring aviation mysteries
By Giles Milton
8:00PM GMT 04 Dec 2015

The message picked up by the control tower was as bizarre as it was alarming. “Everything looks strange,” said the pilot. “It looks like we’re entering white water. We’re completely lost.”

There were a few more crackles and then silence. It was December 5, 1945, and the five airplanes of Flight 19 – a routine military training mission departing from Fort Lauderdale, Florida – had vanished without trace.

For the last 70 years, the disappearance of Flight 19 has been one of the world’s most enduring aviation mysteries. No wreckage was ever found, despite an extensive search, and nor were any bodies recovered. It was as if the planes and their 14 crewmen had simply disappeared into thin air.

In the absence of any hard facts, there was frenzied speculation as to what might have happened. There was also – before long – the birth of an extraordinary myth. The fate of the planes was linked to an area of ocean that became known as the Bermuda Triangle, in which unexplained and seemingly paranormal incidents occurred with alarming frequency.

Now, seven decades after the disappearance of Flight 19, the truth about both the planes and the Bermuda Triangle can finally be revealed.
It is a tale of fantasy, duplicity and wishful thinking – one that was to bring enormous wealth to a handful of individuals. And it all began on that December evening.

Within hours of the five Avenger planes disappearing from the radar, a PBM-Mariner seaplane was sent on a search-and-rescue mission. The Mariner’s pilot made a routine radio call at 7.30pm indicating his position. It was the last call he ever made. Soon afterwards, the Mariner also vanished from the radar, just as the five Avengers had done. Neither the plane, nor her 13-strong crew, was ever seen again.

The disappearance of six planes in one day was mysterious enough, but the losses were by no means at an end. A further three planes went missing in the same area in 1948 and 1949 and a pleasure yacht, the Connemara IV, was found adrift and without its crew in 1955. Just a few years later, two USA Air Force Stratotankers also disappeared.

. . . . .

Seventy years after the disappearance of Flight 19, the truth about what happened can finally be unravelled. At the time of the loss, much attention was focussed on the skill of the squadron’s leader, Lieutenant Charles Taylor. An accomplished pilot with 2,500 hours of flying experience, he had an unblemished track record as an instructor. His student pilots were also highly capable, having clocked up some 300 hours of flying time.

Nor were there any reported problems with the aircraft. They were fully fuelled and had passed all their pre-flight checks. They took off without incident at 2.10pm and were soon heading due east, towards Abaco Island in the northern Bahamas.

Snatches of the radio conversations between the aircrews allow for a partial reconstruction of that afternoon’s flight. At around 3.40pm, one of the crew was heard asking for a compass reading.

“I don’t know where we are,” was the response. “We must have got lost after that last turn.” Minutes later, Lt Taylor was heard to say: “Both my compasses are out and I am trying to find Fort Lauderdale, Florida.”

He attempted to locate his position by studying the islands below. “I am over land but it is broken,” he said. “I am sure I’m in the [Florida] Keys, but I don’t know how far down.”

A dissenting voice was heard on the radio. “Dammit, if we could just fly west, we would get home. Head west, dammit.” Someone on board, it seems, knew that they were on course for disaster.

The Fort Lauderdale ground staff made frantic efforts to contact Lt Taylor, but their messages were not picked up. They eventually managed to triangulate Flight 19’s position and it was most alarming. The planes were north of the Bahamas, miles from land.

“All planes, close up tight,” radioed Taylor at 6.20pm. “We’ll have to ditch unless landfall. When the first plane drops below 10 gallons, we all go down together.”

The final moments of Flight 19 must remain as speculation: despite extensive seabed searches, the planes were never found. They presumably ditched into the sea, where conditions had deteriorated since they left Fort Lauderdale. The choppy waves would have soon swallowed the heavy Avengers.

The US Navy immediately opened an investigation into the missing Avengers, as well as the PBM-Mariner sent to search for them. This latter plane was widely held to have exploded in mid-air – a hypothesis reinforced by the testimony of Captain Shonna Stanley of the SS Gaines Mills: he saw a ball of fire in the sky at exactly the time when the search plane went missing.

As for the Avengers, it was concluded that human error and compass malfunction caused the tragedy. Lieutenant Taylor had wrongly believed himself to be over the Florida Keys; each change of course took his formation further out to sea. And although he had clocked up many flying hours, he had previously been based in Miami and was unfamiliar with the Fort Lauderdale topography.

One by one, the Bermuda Triangle’s supposed mysteries have been solved. The Connemara IV’s crew was not abducted by aliens. The ship was washed out to sea (without its crew) during a hurricane. And the two missing Stratotankers collided and crashed in the Atlantic.

When Lloyds of London was asked to investigate losses in the Bermuda Triangle, they found no evidence to suggest that they were higher than in any other area of ocean. The United States Coast Guard concurred: it said that losses over the years have been negligible when compared to the number of vessels and airplanes that regularly traverse the area.

Such prosaic explanations were never going to satisfy the conspiracy theorists. Vincent Gaddis refused to accept the investigation’s findings into Flight 19 and set to work on his supposition that supernatural forces were responsible. “Whatever this menace that lurks within a triangle of tragedy so close to home, it was responsible for the most incredible mystery in the history of aviation.”

The fact that Flight 19’s compasses were faulty, that Lieutenant Taylor was lost and that the planes had run out of fuel, was of little matter. The planes had disappeared. And the Bermuda Triangle was born.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/12031649/Whatever-happened-to-the-Bermuda-Triangle.html
Pictures, map, on page.

 

[EnolaGaia]

As for the Avengers, it was concluded that human error and compass malfunction caused the tragedy. Lieutenant Taylor had wrongly believed himself to be over the Florida Keys; each change of course took his formation further out to sea. And although he had clocked up many flying hours, he had previously been based in Miami and was unfamiliar with the Fort Lauderdale topography.

I find this last comment somewhat bizarre. Fort Lauderdale is only some 20 - 25 miles north of Miami.

 

[Peripart]

An interesting summary. And I've read similar takes on the story elsewhere, which rule out any idea that this area of sea is more deadly than any other.

One version I recall said that, in all likelihood, there was nothing wrong with Flight 19's compasses - Taylor mistook the Bahamas for the Florida Keys, and thereafter, refused to believe the evidence of his instruments or the flight controllers.

Still, so long as Flight 19's final whereabouts remain unknown, the speculation will continue, and why not? It's still a great tale!

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Watched the "all new" Channel 4 documentary about the disappearance of flight 19 last night.
Didn't really add anything new, but reinforces the most common view about failed compasses and flight leader Taylor believing they were flying over the Florida Keys when they were much further East. Only thing really worth watching was recreating parts of the flight in a flight sim and then in a light aircraft (but the presenter's exaggerated demeanour was somewhat irritating). The simulation of a Fata Morgana in a fish tank was quite interesting.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

In an attempt to cure my lockdown ennui, I watched the "World of Mysteries" documentary on The Bermuda Triangle last night. It's fairly lightweight, but does cover pretty well all of the plausible (human error, thunderstorms, methane bubbles, rogue waves, waterspouts etc.) and less plausible (magnetic anomalies, time warps, aliens etc.) hypotheses.
Flight 19 dominates the middle of the documentary and, around the 20 minute mark, the rumour is floated (no pun intended) that flight leader Lieutenant Charles Taylor not only survived ditching his Avenger, but made it ashore to one of the small islands he had mistaken for the Florida Keys. There, sick with remorse for the deaths of his flight crew and fearful of being court martialled, he lived out his life under an assumed identity and married a native Bahamian. There was speculation (citation definitely required) that an elderly unknown man in latter years may have joined the public at the annual 5 December commemoration service for Flight 19 at Fort Lauderdale. Almost certainly bunkum, but a nice twist on the Triangle mythos, which I didn't recall hearing before. I can see Hollywood making that into a movie some time!

 

[EnolaGaia]

How many people have died doing S&R?

A search crew of 13 disappeared with their flying boat searching for Flight 19.

 

[marhawkman]

A search crew of 13 disappeared with their flying boat searching for Flight 19.

One report suggests that the seaplane searching for flight 19 had a structure failure mid-flight and exploded in mid air when the fuel tank ruptured. Obviously the entire crew died and the explosion was far enough out to sea that people didn't even properly locate the wreckage. :/ It was a plane that was old and probably needed a LOT of work to be fully up to safety specs. One thing that's been mentioned is that it was known to stink of jet fuel on a regular basis :/ There was a log entry made by one of the other flights looking for Flight 19 that they saw what they believed to be a fireball mid-air in the distance at some point during the search and the time recorded is after the last time anyone talked to the crew of that seaplane.

 

[Nosmo King]

The disappearance of flight 19 in the Bermuda Triangle

"Flight 19 was the designation of a group of five General Motors Eastern Aircraft Division TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that disappeared over the Bermuda Triangle on December 5, 1945, after losing contact during a United States Navy overwater navigation training flight from Naval Air Station Fort Lauderdale, Florida."

Later found to have got lost in fog, run out of fuel and crashed (according to latest theories)

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fl-flight-19-sleuths-20140406-story.html

 

[Bud Bangle]

I was half-watching a prog on the Bermuda Triangle not long ago (don't know title) with a salvage expert trying to trace the flight path of Flight 19. He found 5 Avenger bomber planes 600 feet down off the coast of Florida, close to the predicted ditching site of the original flight. The tail fin was missing from the lead plane who's Reg markings would have identified the squadron for sure - but as he remarked, what are the chances of a another different 5 Avengers going missing in the same region ? Tail fin found, planes were not Flight 19, they belonged to a group that disappeared later that year. Flight 19 still not found.

https://www.bermuda-attractions.com/bermuda2_0000e4.htm

 

[marhawkman]

I was half-watching a prog on the Bermuda Triangle not long ago (don't know title) with a salvage expert trying to trace the flight path of Flight 19. He found 5 Avenger bomber planes 600 feet down off the coast of Florida, close to the predicted ditching site of the original flight. The tail fin was missing from the lead plane who's Reg markings would have identified the squadron for sure - but as he remarked, what are the chances of a another different 5 Avengers going missing in the same region ? Tail fin found, planes were not Flight 19, they belonged to a group that disappeared later that year. Flight 19 still not found.

https://www.bermuda-attractions.com/bermuda2_0000e4.htm

Heard of that, funny thing though? There's a REASON they were there. It's a common route for those planes to take on flights.

The disappearance of Flight 19 is unexplained, simple as that. To the people doing the searching immediately afterward, it didn't make sense. It still doesn't make sense. Probably the planes are in the ocean somewhere, but we don't know why. Revisionist explainers like to say things like, "Well they were inexperienced pilots who got lost in the fog." Never mind they were not inexperienced, and there was no fog. We all need to sleep at night, and some of us can't do that knowing there are mysteries out there that might not have "logical explanations".

You talked about how people should respect the expertise of professional investigators, but seemingly choose to utterly ignore the official investigation's conclusion? Not only were they professionals, but had access to information the public doesn't. In part it was that the investigators concluded that the person leading the flight was... not fully competent. Lt Taylor's service record as a pilot? he'd thrice in the past just... lost aircraft. Those investigations didn't conclude that it was definitely his fault, but did cast doubt on his skills. There are certain specific parts of the series of events... where if you assume error on his part... it makes sense that things went wrong. From one PoV it's the "armchair investigators" and "revisionists" (as you described them) that think it's paranormal.

30 hours of flight time(the trainees following Taylor)? Those are rookie numbers. Then the person with experience made a rookie mistake and the rest just followed him. Thing is.. as the official investigation mentioned, this wasn't the first time he'd made a rookie mistake like that. You don't need magic fog to get lost over the open ocean. A simple heading error can go unnoticed for hours. And that's probably what happened. There's a long list of reasons to think it was Taylor's error, but there's a separate thread for that.

 

[Austin Popper]

Heard of that, funny thing though? There's a REASON they were there. It's a common route for those planes to take on flights.

You talked about how people should respect the expertise of professional investigators, but seemingly choose to utterly ignore the official investigation's conclusion? Not only were they professionals, but had access to information the public doesn't. In part it was that the investigators concluded that the person leading the flight was... not fully competent. Lt Taylor's service record as a pilot? he'd thrice in the past just... lost aircraft. Those investigations didn't conclude that it was definitely his fault, but did cast doubt on his skills. There are certain specific parts of the series of events... where if you assume error on his part... it makes sense that things went wrong. From one PoV it's the "armchair investigators" and "revisionists" (as you described them) that think it's paranormal.

30 hours of flight time(the trainees following Taylor)? Those are rookie numbers. Then the person with experience made a rookie mistake and the rest just followed him. Thing is.. as the official investigation mentioned, this wasn't the first time he'd made a rookie mistake like that. You don't need magic fog to get lost over the open ocean. A simple heading error can go unnoticed for hours. And that's probably what happened. There's a long list of reasons to think it was Taylor's error, but there's a separate thread for that.

At any rate This would seem to not be in the category of things mentioned in the OP. He seemed to be asking about cases that were fully fictitious.

Well it has been a long time since I paid any attention to Flight 19 or any "Bermuda Triangle" stuff for that matter. I do recall reading that the "students" were experienced pilots, the least of which had a few hundred hours. The article even said a few of them were WWII combat veteran pilots. It further stated that the "students" were actually taking their "final exam" flight, a test of navigation skills. Maybe that article was full of shit, I don't know. I don't care enough to try to hunt it down, but it seems it came from a reliable source. That's the problem with this stuff; there is so much BS caked on the famous cases that it's often not worth trying to sort them out. I suppose the sketchy and nonsensical radio contacts were made up too. Again, don't know and don't really care. Putting someone so clueless as the leader in your version in charge of a flight full of "rookies" seems to be well beyond irresponsible. Who makes decisions like that?

 

[marhawkman]

Well it has been a long time since I paid any attention to Flight 19 or any "Bermuda Triangle" stuff for that matter. I do recall reading that

I'm gonna have to break this into bits.

the "students" were experienced pilots, the least of which had a few hundred hours.

Taylor had over 2000, but "a few hundred"? maybe the MOST experienced of the trainees, not the LEAST. They had varied skill levels, some were just experienced enough to take off and land safely.

The article even said a few of them were WWII combat veteran pilots.

This was true of Taylor. Not sure of the others myself.

It further stated that the "students" were actually taking their "final exam" flight, a test of navigation skills.

never heard that before. This was about teaching them how to navigate without a compass. Which is seemingly why they got lost. They were inentionally not watching their compasses.

Maybe that article was full of shit, I don't know.

It sounds like a series of exaggerations.

I don't care enough to try to hunt it down, but it seems it came from a reliable source. That's the problem with this stuff; there is so much BS caked on the famous cases that it's often not worth trying to sort them out. I suppose the sketchy and nonsensical radio contacts were made up too. Again, don't know and don't really care. Putting someone so clueless as the leader in your version in charge of a flight full of "rookies" seems to be well beyond irresponsible. Who makes decisions like that?

Was Taylor clueless? He was a war vet, he'd been an officer long enough to make LT. He'd been a flight instructor for years. Sure he had multiple blemishes on his record, but his bosses hadn't decided he was incompetent yet. This incident? There's a strong chance Taylor would have gotten fired if he hadn't died.

 

[Austin Popper]

I'm gonna have to break this into bits.

I wish I could recall something about the source of that, er, stuff. I'm usually pretty particular about credible sources. Never bought into the Debble or aliens snatching planes and boats, or magic fog. Some sources I once thought were solid have turned out to be less than reliable though. The whole episode just doesn't add up, but then I've been watching a lot of videos lately from people like "Mentour Pilot", and there seems to be no shortage of incredibly bad decision making when it comes to tragic losses. That was quite the horrific day, with all those people on the search plane lost too.

 

[marhawkman]

I wish I could recall something about the source of that, er, stuff. I'm usually pretty particular about credible sources. Never bought into the Debble or aliens snatching planes and boats, or magic fog. Some sources I once thought were solid have turned out to be less than reliable though. The whole episode just doesn't add up, but then I've been watching a lot of videos lately from people like "Mentour Pilot", and there seems to be no shortage of incredibly bad decision making when it comes to tragic losses. That was quite the horrific day, with all those people on the search plane lost too.

Yeah, if you assume Taylor didn't make mistakes, then the case MUST be paranormal.... but ONLY if you assume Taylor didn't make a mistake.

One interesting hypothesis I saw in a YT vid is that when they were calculating the angle to turn in their first major course change they made a math error. One hypothesis is that they flew over Great Abaco instead of Grand Bahama. You can plot a course from their turning point to Grand Bahama then plot a course 90° clockwise from that that goes over Great Abaco instead. A simple math error could have caused them to fly NE instead of NW like they planned. This also explains how Taylor turned and thought he was over the Florida Keys, there is a similar island chain NW of Great Abaco. Which in turn explains how Taylor got there so quickly. The Florida Keys are a long way from Grand Bahama, seemingly too far for Taylor to have flown there in the time since he was last seen.

Yes this line of thought requires something like 4 errors, but well... that's why it's not something that happens every day.

 

[Austin Popper]

That might also explain the poor radio contact, if indeed those details are genuine.

The Gimli Glider episode was caused by cascading errors and communication failures that would surely have had disastrous consequences if the flight had been over water. It very nearly was disastrous anyway.

 

[marhawkman]

That might also explain the poor radio contact, if indeed those details are genuine.

The Gimli Glider episode was caused by cascading errors and communication failures that would surely have had disastrous consequences if the flight had been over water. It very nearly was disastrous anyway.

Well, it is known that his radio seemingly lost signal due to range before he went down. If he was flying NE into the Atlantic? yeah... getting farther from Ft. Lauderdale.

The Gimli incident had a few issues yeah. 1: the plane's fuel gauge was broken and they had to manually calculate fuel in tank. 2: at the last refueling the fuel amount needed was calculated wrong due to a metric/imperial confusion. So they actually loaded less fuel(45% full tank) than they needed to get to the next stop.

Honestly the real reason it wasn't disastrous? It was being flown by one of only a few Airline pilots who actually has glider training. The ONE and ONLY time a jumbo jet ran out of fuel mid-flight and it was being flown by a guy experienced in piloting gliders. Odds of that are seemingly extremely low. Yet it happened. Unlike most people who tried this in simulators, Pearson actually LANDED the plane properly..... on a decommissioned airstrip, after running out of fuel, and to add an extra layer of pressure.... he didn't run over the crowd of people around the airstrip. Yeah, emergency landing on an airstrip surrounded by a crowd who was not expecting to see a 767 today! It was actually officially classified as an "emergency landing" because the craft had minimal damage. "C-GAUN" actually got returned to service and wasn't decommissioned until 25 years later(in 2008)!

 

[Naughty_Felid]

I'm gonna have to break this into bits.
Taylor had over 2000, but "a few hundred"? maybe the MOST experienced of the trainees, not the LEAST. They had varied skill levels, some were just experienced enough to take off and land safely.
This was true of Taylor. Not sure of the others myself.
never heard that before. This was about teaching them how to navigate without a compass. Which is seemingly why they got lost. They were inentionally not watching their compasses.
It sounds like a series of exaggerations.
Was Taylor clueless? He was a war vet, he'd been an officer long enough to make LT. He'd been a flight instructor for years. Sure he had multiple blemishes on his record, but his bosses hadn't decided he was incompetent yet. This incident? There's a strong chance Taylor would have gotten fired if he hadn't died.

Didn't the compass malfunction? Taylor was a bit of a "loose" pilot and he had "flu-like symptoms"? They got lost and ran out of fuel.

One thing did strike me about Taylor - just because he was pretty good during the war doesn't mean that things didn't catch up with him later. He was exonerated because of the work his mother did but it might just have been an error. Everyday tragedies that result from a series of errors.

https://www.nasflmuseum.com/taylor.html

 

[RaM]

I was told that when they flew the Gimli Glider out the strip was very short for the aircraft
and so they stripped a lot of weight inc all the seats out and only put enough fuel in to
reach the nearest airport, the landing gear was locked down due to damage, I was also told
they had only 2 people on board a pilot and a mechanic/technician, anyone know how true this
is and if it is the name of the technician?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Didn't the compass malfunction? Taylor was a bit of a "loose" pilot and he had "flu-like symptoms"? They got lost and ran out of fuel.

One thing did strike me about Taylor - just because he was pretty good during the war doesn't mean that things didn't catch up with him later. He was exonerated because of the work his mother did but it might just have been an error. Everyday tragedies that result from a series of errors.

https://www.nasflmuseum.com/taylor.html

You don't need a compass to determine direction, provided you have a watch and can see the Sun.
As one of the crew was heard to say "Dammit, if we could just fly west we would get home; head west, dammit!".

 

[marhawkman]

Didn't the compass malfunction? Taylor was a bit of a "loose" pilot and he had "flu-like symptoms"? They got lost and ran out of fuel.

One thing did strike me about Taylor - just because he was pretty good during the war doesn't mean that things didn't catch up with him later. He was exonerated because of the work his mother did but it might just have been an error. Everyday tragedies that result from a series of errors.

https://www.nasflmuseum.com/taylor.html

Ah but that's the thing, WHY did Taylor think the compass was not working? Taylor thought he knew where he was. IE over Grand Bahama, but the compass told him otherwise. If he was actually flying over Great Abaco at the time? well.... of course the compass would disagree since it was TAYLOR that was wrong. One thing that was noted is that Taylor seemed to think all 10(5 airplanes 2 in each) of their compasses had simultaneously malfunctioned. Which is crazy, but, if he was certain of his location, but WRONG... yeah. There is evidence in the radio logs that the other pilots were less sure that the compasses were out. Also I'm not sure if they were using magnetic or gyroscopic compasses. Gyroscopic compasses don't fail due to magnetic anomalies. 10 failing at the same time? that's... highly unlikely.

I was told that when they flew the Gimli Glider out the strip was very short for the aircraft
and so they stripped a lot of weight inc all the seats out and only put enough fuel in to
reach the nearest airport, the landing gear was locked down due to damage, I was also told
they had only 2 people on board a pilot and a mechanic/technician, anyone know how true this
is and if it is the name of the technician?

Sounds plausible. Gimli wasn't built for jumbo jets. I vaguely remember hearing it got decommissioned because it was relatively small.