Flooded Kingdoms (Graham Hancock)

[rynner2]

Thanks for the info, Mana. I'll check if my local library has it - which I can do online (so they tell me!)

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Before Hancock

Has anyone read Eden In The East - The Drowned Continent of Southeast Asia by Stephen Oppenheimer?

This book pre-dates Hancock's Underworld though they appear to be talking about much the same thing. Maybe Hancock has better PR!

I'm ashamed to say that I haven't read Oppenheimer's book yet . It's quite long, >500 pages including notes and an index but not a proper blibliography/further reading list. He discusses geological, physiological and archaeological evidence along with loads of myths including, of course, the multiple flood myths.

Oppenheimer isn't an archaelogist, he's a medical docter specialising in tropical paediatrics. For most of his career he's being living/working in the Far East and Pacific region.

It may be worthwhile taking a look at this book before Hancock's. I wonder how they compare too

So, is anyone already familiar with it?

LIke you, i've got it, but not read it! i've had it a while now, and like you sadi its big 'n 'eavy! i'll read it in my lunch break & give you a synopsis.

 

[rynner2]

I've reserved it at the library. (Tried to do it online, but the system wouldn't accept my pin and library no. for some reason...)

 

[Cult_of_Mana]

Okey dokey, chaps. Make sure you report back on it, ok? Let me know how it compares with Hancock's offering (if you've read it of course).

 

[rynner2]

I'm about halfway through Oppenheimer's book now. His account of the geology and the evidence for the sea-level rise occuring in three major bursts of flooding is pretty much the same as Hancock's. (Which is reassuring!) He also looks at the effect of the flood in the Persian Gulf, whch again roughly parallels Hancock, but his main area of interest is the submergence of the large area of land in SE Asia (called Sundaland).

While Hancock is mostly interested in what underwater evidence remains, Oppenheimer is more interested in what happened to the people displaced by the floods. He examines linguistic and genetic evidence in great detail (he has worked for long periods in the area as a medical man), and concludes that the people moved away in all directions, from the Pacific islands in the east to India and beyond in the west. In as much as Hancock hardly touches these topics, the two books are complementary.

The second part of O's book looks at flood legends from around the world, seeking evidence to back up his ideas of cultural dispersion. I've only just started this part, but it seems very interesting.

I don't recall Hancock mentioning O's book - if anyone has H's book, does he mention O at all, or list his book in the bibliography? And if he doesn't mention him, what does that tell us...?

 

[rynner2]

With perfect synchronicity, Breaking News presents me with a story of another American Bible-basher who is off to discover Noah's Ark!


And another syn: this page is about the discovery of a mysterious old skeleton found on a Pacific island, in conjunction with Lapita ware, generally thought to be brought to the islands by the original settlers. But Oppenheimer disputes this, and believes the islands were first settled thousands of years earlier.

Embedded link is dead. No archived version found.

 

[Cult_of_Mana]

I'm about halfway through Oppenheimer's book now....

Great summary Rynner, thanks. I look forward to reading your verdict on the second half which does look jolly interesting and is probably worth its price alone.

Someone please tell us if Hancock cites Oppenheimer in his bibliography. I'm not willing to shell out twenty notes yet on H's book. Not much of a book borrower, me, like to own stuff. It's mine, all mine ahahahahahah!!!!!!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Here's an interesting one for anyone who has read the whole prehistoric civilisation subject, Hancock and the crust shift theory.

My girlfriend's mother has an extensive book collection and perusing one day I came across an old copy of "World's in Collision" by Immanuel Velikovski. An important source book for the Russian Artic expiditions whtat found the flash frozen mammoths and other indications of a severe and rapid drop in tempratures.

You find gems in the oddest places.

LD

 

[rynner2]

I've posted on Velikovsky a few times before - I'm one of the few who has! (no doubt a Search will turn up whatever it was).

I've finished Oppenheimer's book now. In the second half he investigates myths, not only about the flood, but about Creation, and he makes a good case that many of these creation myths could in fact refer to a world recovering from the effect of drastic sea level rise, with associated tectonic and vulcanic effects. There is also the possibilty that (some of) these creation myths could refer back to the SECOND of the post Ice Age floods, while the flood myths themselves refer to the third and last one.

He also examines other myths, like the Garden of Eden, Cain and Abel, and others that we think of as originating in ancient Mesopotamia, and suggests that they too could have originated in the far east in the aftermath of the floods.

A lot of fascinating ideas, but it's sometimes not easy to tell the wood from the trees because of the amount of detail covered. There are many place names, peoples, languages and geographical relationships that are not easy to keep track of, on a first reading.

 

[rynner2]

More evidence of Asian-American links?

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,136996,00.html
BEIJING - The famous Lake Tahoe in California provides a vital piece of evidence supporting the theory that ancient East Asians and native Americans are of the same stock, said a Chinese expert.

History professor Yang Liwen, who founded Beijing University's Canadian Studies Centre, said Tahoe is the local Indian word for 'great lake' while dahu means the same in Chinese.

Having visited many Indian reservations and archaeological sites across Canada, Prof Yang told The Straits Times there are remarkable similarities in the traditional lifestyles of Canadian aboriginal people and the Chinese.

Canadian Indians' fishing ways, for example, bear an uncanny resemblance to ancestral ways in southern China.

Symbols, rituals and altars too bear strong similarities.

Attending a 1999 aboriginal cultural exhibition in British Columbia, Canada, he was struck by a symbol on a tribe's totem pole. It was a Chinese yin-yang symbol.

[etc]

 

[Anonymous]

More evidence of Asian-American links?

You don't know the half of it, apparently !

 

[rynner2]

The amazing disruption and disaster in the present central European floods (after just a few days exceptional rain) shows how vulnerable civilization is to flooding. Over 100 people have died, plus one elephant, who was shot when they couldn't move him from Prague zoo. (Elephants can swim, but I guess they didn't want a bewildered elephant loose in the countryside.)

At least they know the waters will go down sooner or later, but it may take months to get things like subways and electricity working again, and many buildings may have been rendered unsafe. But imagine if the waters did not recede, but even continued to advance...

Ironically, today is the 50th anniversary of the Lynmouth flood disaster, in North Devon, when exceptionally heavy rain caused the Lyn Rivers to suddenly rise and destroy life and property. It has been suggested that this rainfall may have been the result of cloud-seeding experiments at the time, although this has never been proved. (I think this has been mentioned elsewhere on this MB.)

 

[TVgeek]

Just last night, I picked up a Brad Steiger book from 1987 titled
"Worlds Before Our Own". Every paragraph seems to make
one astounding claim after another about the evidence for
past "high cultures".

In the actual text, sources are not quoted.
<edit: Once beyond the intro, yes, sources are HEAVILY quoted... and with a full bibliography!>

That being said, what he stated in this book 15 years
ago holds up SUPRISINGLY well to the facts as they are emerging
today -- even in the mainstream press!

TVgeek
- with prayers to the flood victims -- buildings can be restored or rebuilt -- people can't.

 

[Anonymous]

More evidence of Asian-American links?

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,136996,00.html
BEIJING - The famous Lake Tahoe in California provides a vital piece of evidence supporting the theory that ancient East Asians and native Americans are of the same stock, said a Chinese expert.

History professor Yang Liwen, who founded Beijing University's Canadian Studies Centre, said Tahoe is the local Indian word for 'great lake' while dahu means the same in Chinese.

Having visited many Indian reservations and archaeological sites across Canada, Prof Yang told The Straits Times there are remarkable similarities in the traditional lifestyles of Canadian aboriginal people and the Chinese.

Canadian Indians' fishing ways, for example, bear an uncanny resemblance to ancestral ways in southern China.

Symbols, rituals and altars too bear strong similarities.

Attending a 1999 aboriginal cultural exhibition in British Columbia, Canada, he was struck by a symbol on a tribe's totem pole. It was a Chinese yin-yang symbol.

[etc]

----------------------------------------------------------

The connection needn't be that ancient, however. The First Emperor reputedly sent hundreds eastwards across the sea in search of the lands of the immortals (P'eng Lai if my memory of the Wade-Giles rendition holds accurate: I'd have to look up the Hanyupinyin version of the same name) when he was at the peak of his mania for attaining physical immortality for himself. None of the expeditions ever returned. Orthodoxy holds they all died, drowned or returned in secret rather than getting anywhere, but there are accounts of Chinese remains in northern Oz, wall frescoes in Mexico showing what appear to be Oriental Buddhist monks bestowing a blessing, and I've always been a trifle suspicious about the obsession the South Americans had with jade .

 

[rynner2]

Taiwan -- The Cradle of Civilization
A new book about the prehistory of Taiwan. There is obvious overlap here with Hancock's ideas (he gets a mention) and those of Oppenheimer. (But overlap, not necessarily agreement!)

There is also a hint of UFOs and ancient astronauts, which appears to have relegated this book to the realms of Damned data!

 

[rynner2]

A new link on the Cuban Atlantis story.

It doesn't say much that's new though, but there's a nice pic of the research ship!

 

[rynner2]

White House involvement in search for Noah's Ark

and

Cuban Atlantis - Picture. Longish discussion in the article.

Dr Robert Ballard is sceptical:

Ballard said he has heard of the formations in the Yucatan Channel but is not convinced they are the work of humans.

"That's too deep," he said of the 2,000-foot site. "I'd be surprised if it was human. You have to ask yourself, how did it get there?

"I've looked at a lot of sonar images in my life," Ballard said, "and it can be sort of like looking at an an ink blot -- people can sometimes see what they want to see. I'll just wait for a bit more data."

But

Cuban geologist Iturralde, she said, "has clearly identified on the ocean bottom the coastal structures of a separated island." Also, she said, the sea bottom at the site is covered with volcanic glass "which could be generated only on the oxygenated surface."

Everyone should keep an open mind, said geologist Iturralde.

"These are extremely peculiar structures, and they have captured our imagination," he said. "If I had to explain this geologically, I would have a hard time."

But, he added, just because no natural explanation for the so-called ruins is immediately apparent, it doesn't mean there isn't one. "Nature is able to create some really unimaginable structures," he said.

He also raised a third possibility. The megaliths might be natural structures, he said, "but transformed or adapted by intelligent beings for dwelling or religious purposes."

 

[Anonymous]

Japanese underwater pyramid

Just saw this show on the history channel about an underwater pyramid off of Japan. Beared good resembelence to the Cuban "Atlantis", if I recall correctly. Looked very interesting... until the show, pretty convincingly, debunked it (mostly using testimony from the guy who claims the Sphynx is much older than conventionally thought), by claiming its just rock that naturally erodes in rough 90 degree angles (rock on nearby banks did look similar). Algae on the rock smoothed it out, making it look flater than it actually was. Then it went on to tell about this other structure found nearby, which is three-sided, and looks like a stage. This one looked pretty interesting. But as for the pyramid itself, I can buy it was carved by heavy tides. Could this explain the man-made-looking formations off of Cuba?
Can't remember exact name of the place... sorry.

Appologies if this has been detailed on this thread already... I haven't read it yet, but seems this is a good place to put this.

 

[rynner2]

Researchers deny Black Sea Flood as root of Noah's story
A long article:

The new research takes direct aim at the work of two Columbia University geologists - William Ryan and Walter Pitman - whose proposal in 1997 ignited much new interest, and much new research, into Middle East history and geology.

 

[Anonymous]

Cuban Atlantis - Picture. Longish discussion in the article.

"Nothing is known for certain now," Weinzweig said, "but oral tradition in early Mexico speaks of an advanced civilization of tall white people who came from the East, and of an island that sank in a great natural disaster.

First i've heard of that

" In the ancient language of some early Central American Indians, he said, "the word Atlanticu means 'our good father,' or, 'the place where our good father rests.' "

Which Language? Which People?

Smells like...:eek!!!!:

 

[rynner2]

SOFIA, Bulgaria -- It's the oldest shipwreck ever found in the Black Sea with relics from between the third and fifth centuries B.C. containing clues to the diet of ancient Greeks. (Not strictly Flooded Kingdoms, but ties in with earlier Black sea stuff.)

 

[IneffableOgre]

Here is a good site on Flood Stories. Not really about flooded kindoms per se, but world wide flood stories(It is a pro creationism site, so probably has some of that teaching in it, but the stories are good)

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
quoted from the site-

Choctaw (Mississippi)
A prophet was sent by the high god to warn of a coming flood, but nobody took notice. When the flood came, the prophet took to a raft. After several months, he saw a black bird. He signaled it, but it just cawed and flew away. Later, he sighted and signaled a bluish bird. The bird flapped, moaned dolorously, and guided the raft towards where the sun was breaking through. Next morning, he landed on an island with all kinds of animals. He cursed the black bird (a crow) and blessed the bluish one (a dove). [Gaster, p. 116]

Caddo (Oklahoma, Arkansas):
A woman gave birth to four monsters. Though advised to kill them, she let them grow. They grew quickly and acted evilly, and before long they were too large and powerful to kill. They kept growing. One night they came together in the camp with their backs together and grew together into one creature, which grew tall enough to touch the sky. Most people took refuge at their base, where they couldn't bend over and reach them; others were caught by the monsters' long arms and eaten. One man who could see the future heard a voice telling him to plant a hollow reed. He did so, and it quickly grew very big. The voice directed the man and his wife to go naked into the reed, taking pairs of good animals, when they see all the birds of the world flying south. The sign came and they entered. Rain came, and waters rose to cover everything but the top of the reed and the heads of the monsters. Turtle destroyed the monsters by digging under them and uprooting them. They broke apart and fell in (and thus formed) the four cardinal directions. The waters subsided, and winds dried the earth. The people and animals emerged onto a barren earth, and the wife wondered how they would live. The man said, "Go to sleep." Four times they slept, and each time they woke there was more growth around them. After the fourth night, they awoke in a grass hut, and there was a stalk of corn outside. The voice told them corn was to be their holy food. If they plant corn and something else comes up, then the world will end. The voice didn't return after that. [Erdoes & Ortiz, p. 120-122]

There are some other very good stories on that site.

 

[ruffready]

heres a site with underwater stuff

and more with pictures http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/atlantis_found.html

 

[Anonymous]

I agree that civilizations could have reached large proportions in the far past. Was there anything that could have prevented them from doing so? Large areas of Earth were free of ice during the last glaciations and the glaciers probably acted to enhance certain areas. For example, the Sahara was once lush and verdant, ancient native people left drawings to that effect. However, there is no historical record from the ancient Sahara, nor from many other mysterious ancient people. Of course, many other mysteries exist from mankind's distant past such as out-of-place artifacts and pyramids of an unknown origin. The implication is that records were either destroyed or are undiscovered. Especially when considered together, the evidence is much more than suggestive of a large human civilization existing prior to 10,000 years BP.

 

[Anonymous]

Of course, many other mysteries exist from mankind's distant past such as out-of-place artifacts and pyramids of an unknown origin. The implication is that records were either destroyed or are undiscovered. Especially when considered together, the evidence is much more than suggestive of a large human civilization existing prior to 10,000 years BP.

Errm? Sorry?

Could we have some references for such claims, please?

Much as I'd like to believe that there were advanced 'civilisations' before, or during the last Ice Age, I, personally, ain't seen any convincing proof of any of the above, from that far back.

 

[Anonymous]

Andro: Timble provides some good ones immediately previous to our posts, as does Ruff. Here is a small taste of the other information available:

http://www.earthfiles.com/

http://www.morien-institute.org/news.html#cambay

http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/cambay1.php

http://www.morien-institute.org/news.html#mahabu

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1923000/1923794.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1768000/1768109.stm

http://www.ses-explore.org/past/southeastindia.htm

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/11/wtemp11.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001230.html

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_563330.html?sessid=18cfe062464baa830fc938c

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=283664

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-263376,00.html

http://www.morien-institute.org/news.html#cuba

 

[Anonymous]

Hmm...

Andro: Timble provides some good ones immediately previous to our posts, as does Ruff.

Timble's post about the waters around Cyprus is certainly interesting, however, where's the actual evidence for a drowned, antediluvian civilisation? The Lost Lands of the North Sea concern early mesolithic hunter-gatherers, no question of a technological, pyramid building culture there.

If, by Ruff's post you mean,

"Here's a site with some underwater stuff"

Then, interesting though the news reports about the apparent structures in the deep sea, off Cuba are, there's been little, or nothing concrete to be seen since and the sonar pictures, could easily be natural, geometric, geological formations. Really. And most of the links don't seem to work.

As for Agharti, where are the photos and artifacts? Excavations? Expeditions? Anything more solid than the old 'Dero,' Shambala,' myths, or the dubious extrapolations of the work of Erich von Daniken?

Here is a small taste of the other information available:

http://www.earthfiles.com/

Alleged Cuba, ruins, see above.

http://www.morien-institute.org/news.html#cambay

Yes. Cuba, ditto. Undersea ruins off Japan, some interesting photos, might be artificial stone formations, some that look very much like unusual natural geological formations, little hard evidence, or proper excavation evidence to be see.

'Cambay' off coast of India, where's the photos, who estimated the ancient dates, where's the proof?

http://www.morien-institute.org/news.html#mahabu

"More megalithic structures found off the coast of Yonaguni-jima, Japan"

Yes, in an occasional photo, formations look temptingly artificial and man made, but then some of the photos seem more likely to show unusual geological formations, perhaps of basaltic lava, once again we're talking about an area of major volcanic and seismic activity, so where does that get us re. dates?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1923000/1923794.stm

Graham Hancock involved, Nothing posted on this one, since: Thursday, 11 April, 2002, 15:54 GMT 16:54 UK. Where's the proof of dates and a report, or update?

http://www.ses-explore.org/past/southeastindia.htm

More about the undersea ruins off India, from two years ago, no updates, recently. Mention of Graham Hancock's involvment prominent. We've already had one, or two of the photos on, http://www.india-atlantis.org/ But, appart from some pictures of some 'stone blocks' where's the good stuff and why are there so many charming, and inconsequential, tourist shots?

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/04/11/wtemp11.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/04/
Daily Telegraph (Filed: 11/04/2002)
"India's National Institute of Oceanography, which was involved in the discovery, believes the ruins at Mahabalipuram in Tamil Nadu could be 1,200 to 1,500 years old.

But Mr Hancock, who argues that civilisation predates the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians by thousands of years, believes the city could go back to 3,000 BC."

I'm sure he does, but where's his proof? And 3000bc is still along way away from 9000bc. That's 6ooo years difference!

Bit of recalibration going on there.

http://www.indiadivine.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001230.html

The site's been re-organised, but it's mostly there to promote Hindu mysticism, nothing wrong with that, but put's damper on the possibility of hard proof.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_563330.html?sessid=18cfe062464baa830fc938c

"Divers find ruins of mythical city off India

Explorers believe they have discovered remains of a mythical city off the coast of India.

According to legend it was swallowed up by the sea about 2,000 years ago."

...

"In January scientists announced the discovery of an ancient metropolis 120ft under the sea in the Gulf of Khambhat, north-west India, which could be one of the oldest cities known. Fragments of pottery, carved wood, bone and beads have been dated to more than 9,000 years old.

Mr Hancock believes the discovery supports his theory that complex civilisations existed in the Ice Age but were wiped out when the ice melted, submerging 15 million square miles of land."[/B]
Story filed: 10:45 Wednesday 10th April 2002

So, we're back to the times of Ice Age, again. but, is there a report about the dating of the artifacts, bone and wood fragments that's more creditable than a mention in an Ananova news report?

And the two sites, two dates? The City that sunk beneath the sea 2000 years ago and the site with the inundated ancient temples that supposedly dates back to the Ice Age? A certain cavalier atitude to dates and sites, martialled into the proving of Graham Hancock's Ancient Ice Age Civilisation Theory, curious, or what?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=283664

Page not available, when I checked.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-263376,00.html

Couldn't get to this page.

http://www.morien-institute.org/news.html#cuba

Already covered this one above.

So, what have we got? A handful of recently discovered sites, some like those off Cyprus, mostly supposition, little proof. Some, like those of the coast of North East England, where the dating is early, but the mesolithic culture is reasonably well understood and bears little resemblance to that of the fabled Atlantis. Some, like those off Cuba, Japan and India, with a handful of tantalising, but unsatisfying photos and sonar images, and some enthusiatic dating, little else.

When will we get to see some decent and clear evidence for all this supposition?

When it turns up, I'll be one of the first to cheer!

And where are the pyramids of unknown origin?

 

[Anonymous]

But don't you see? The flooded civilisations of 10,000 b.c.e. only built on the ancient shoreline; inland everybody was still happy to have mesolithic technology.

They did this to avoid detection by archaeologists in the future.

 

[Anonymous]

But don't you see? The flooded civilisations of 10,000 b.c.e. only built on the ancient shoreline; inland everybody was still happy to have mesolithic technology.

Not as unlikely as it sounds.

If the 'Atlanteans' / 'Lemurians' were a thorough going seafaring nation, then heading out from their island of origin and creating settlements and colonies along the ancient coastlines would make sense.

Inland, all would still be ice field, wilderness, bog, swamp, desert, or inpenetrable woodland, possibly inhabited by unfriendly natives.

The low lying, fertile, alluvial plains at the mouths of rivers would be the best place to set up your farmsteads and townships.

The logic's sound enough.

 

[Anonymous]

Hmm...

Andro: As I mentioned, those links represent a small taste of the information available. While I agree that mystical milleau is included too frequently, you are also correct that it does not necessarily impune the reporting. I also was not impressed with the tourist-like photos from a "scientific" excursion. But I do not agree with your assessment of the investigations near Cuba. Recent, hi-res radar images of that area look little like geologic formations with which I am familiar. Additional closeup photos of the structures are very interesting and imply more questions, as any good scientific inquiry should.

That fact that the sites are submerged is a major hurdle to investigations. Given current worldwide economic conditions, the resources for exploring the sites is diminished. However, follow up research does carry on, despite its excruciating pace. I await irrefutable proof as you do. We must consider the facts that sea levels rose after the Pleistocene, that human settlements do tend to concentrate along coastlines and that humans are at least 600,000 years old as a species. Considering also the presence of many ancient Homo Sapiens' settlements worldwide, virtually assures us that submerged, prehistoric cities exist. Hopefully, enough interest will be generated to fully investigate the purported sites. Personally, I was not impressed with the results of the offshore Japanese exploration, though the investigators were. Meanwhile, the Cuban investigation is becoming fruitful and I am eagerly watching those in the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean.

Being so skeptical, you apparently have evidence in refutation of prehistoric cities and/or a rise in sea level.