Found & Recovered Bodies (In General; Misc.)

ramonmercado

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Body 'unseen in Massachusetts swimming pool for days'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13986769

Marie Joseph's friends thought she had simply left the pool
Authorities in the US state of Massachusetts are trying to find out how a body lay unnoticed in a swimming pool for more than two days as the public continued to use the facility.

Marie Joseph, 36, had used a slide at the Veterans Memorial Pool in Fall River on Sunday but failed to return to the surface.

A boy reportedly told staff but the body was only found when teenagers broke in for a clandestine night swim.

The pool was described as "cloudy".

Massachusetts has closed dozens of state-run swimming pools while investigations continue.

Two pool inspectors have been placed on administrative leave.

An autopsy on Ms Joseph's body has been completed but the results have not yet been published.

'Systematic breakdown'
Health officials sought to allay public concern, saying the chlorine in the water would have offered protection.


State public health medical director Dr Lauren Smith said: "I want to reassure the public that, as disturbing as it is to you, there are no health risks associated with this."

State energy and environmental affairs secretary Richard Sullivan told Associated Press: "The facts appear to indicate that a woman was in the water for a number of days and not noticed by staff, patrons or other inspections that may have taken place."

He said there had been "a breakdown systematically somewhere".

But he said he believed that normal procedures of checking pools after closure had been taken.

"We undergo a procedure with each and every one of our pools. We believe all of those were in place here."

Ms Joseph, a native of Haiti, had five children.

She had reportedly entered the slide with a nine-year-old boy who noticed she had not resurfaced. The pool is at most 4m (12ft) deep.

One of Ms Joseph's friends said the boy had told a lifeguard but that no checks were done and her friends thought she had simply left the pool.

The body was found 58 hours later by a group of teenagers who jumped a locked fence at about 2200 on Tuesday.

One regular swimmer, Louie Cahill, told ABC: "The pool is 12ft deep. You cannot see anybody in the bottom of that pool."

A spokesman for the Bristol County district attorney, Gregg Miliote, told CNN that a decomposing body could take a couple of days before becoming buoyant.
 

McAvennie

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I am fairly sure that you could see a body at 12 ft through clear swimming pool water...
 

Stormkhan

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Two "pool inspectors" were dozy tits who just drove around various pools, hit the nearest bar, ticked off the location on a list then moved onto the next. The so-called investigation into a systematic breakdown is gibberish is management-speak for ass-covering an embarassment caused by being caught out not doing the job properly.
This is, of course, only my opinion but I'm fairly certain of my assumption.
 

Kondoru

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Yes, it seems poor safety

or poor water
 

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Officials in Ecuador are trying to determine if three bodies found on the Chimborazo volcano are those of French climbers who died in an avalanche two decades ago.

Mountain guides found the frozen remains during a climb on Saturday.

They were still wearing their backpacks and investigators hope a camera found nearby may yield clues about their identity and what happened to them.

Chimborazo is Ecuador's highest mountain at 6,268m (20,565ft).

The bodies were found under layers of ice at a height of 5,650m.

In 1994, seven French climbers and three Ecuadorean guides went missing on the Chimborazo volcano after an avalanche.

Ecuadorean officials have asked relatives of the missing French climbers to come forward to help determine the identities of the bodies.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-34039676
 

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A shrinking glacier in Switzerland has revealed two frozen bodies believed to be of a couple who went missing 75 years ago, Swiss media report.

Marcelin and Francine Dumoulin disappeared after going to tend to their cows in the Alps in 1942.

The couple had seven children.

Their youngest daughter, 79, said the news brought her a "deep sense of calm" and she wanted to give them the funeral they deserved.

"We spent our whole lives looking for them," Marceline Udry-Dumoulin told Lausanne daily Le Matin. ...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40645745?ocid=socialflow_twitter
 

escargot

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The bit about how she was always pregnant and usually unable to do that walk rings an alarm with me. What was she doing up there? Was her husband up to something?
 

Mythopoeika

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The bit about how she was always pregnant and usually unable to do that walk rings an alarm with me. What was she doing up there? Was her husband up to something?
Probably wanted to kill himself, what with all the mouths to feed. She probably went looking for him.
 

Ghost In The Machine

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Researching 19thC clothing, I realised that if I did a search for 'Found drowneds' in the river, here, I'd get a load of clothing descriptions - often very detailed, as these would be published in the newspapers as a way IDing the dead. And lots of the suicides would be wearing distinctive 'occupational costume' when they died. I also started searching firsthand in parish records, along the river banks.

So as a by product of my research on clothing, I accidentally developed quite a knowledge of the local 'Found Drowneds' of the 18th and 19thCs. It also turned up info on accidental deaths in the river, as well as suicides.

The river is tidal, til the point where a weir was built. So bits are tidal, and bits aren't. Depending on the time of year and, guess, tides - bodies can make it over the weir, though.

Frequently, they were found a considerable distance from the bridge where they were thought to have gone in. And sometimes, they didn't float far, and were even a long time after they went in, suddenly found (for whatever reason) and identified by people who presumably knew them, in life. As a rule, for obvious reasons, they'd bury them quickly and unceremoniously - then provide the description of clothing/items in pockets, if the person was unidentifiable.

Rarely, but it did happen, a parish record might say the recovered body's name, and possibly that they were known to be in a bad way mentally, when last seen. But more often, a 'Found Drowned' would be recorded briefly in parish records just as a male or female, and you got the feeling - no-one came looking for them, and they were buried hastily in paupers' graves and never named subsequently. There were instances of bodies washing up 20 miles from where they went in. (Think there was a recent one of a woman in York who went missing the same month as Claudia Lawrence and her body was only found, in deep mud on the river bank, 5 or more miles out of town, a couple of years ago... ie: she'd been missing for a few years). I know of an accident in the 1830s where two bodies were never found, although a drag turned up one of their shawls. And they didn't come to light subsequently, either.

All a bit grisly, but also fascinating.

I have at least four ancestors who drowned in rivers. Two, (decades apart but met the same fate), according to newspaper accounts, falling in when drunk. Another, a baby who was accidentally dropped into the water by someone babysitting him and another, who was an inland mariner, just recorded in the parish records as "drowned". As a mariner, I'm assuming someone saw him fall in and recovered him immediately. On the same page of the parish record, was an elderly lady who was found drowned, who they seem to assume committed suicide, but no-one liked to say that too overtly, as that might have denied her burial in consecrated ground, I suppose.

As a side note, a story that has always fascinated me, is that of Shelley's first wife, Harriet, who was a Found Drowned. She was abandoned by Shelley and pregnant by someone else, when she died. No-one can account for her whereabouts in the final month of her life, when visibly pregnant, and 'disgraced', she drowned herself in the Serpentine in 1816. But it appeared her body had not been in the water long and her final three weeks are a total blank - no-one knew where she'd gone, til she turned up dead.

http://shelleysghost.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/harriet-shelleys-suicide-letter#Transcript
 

Swifty

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Researching 19thC clothing, I realised that if I did a search for 'Found drowneds' in the river, here, I'd get a load of clothing descriptions - often very detailed, as these would be published in the newspapers as a way IDing the dead. And lots of the suicides would be wearing distinctive 'occupational costume' when they died. I also started searching firsthand in parish records, along the river banks.

So as a by product of my research on clothing, I accidentally developed quite a knowledge of the local 'Found Drowneds' of the 18th and 19thCs. It also turned up info on accidental deaths in the river, as well as suicides.

The river is tidal, til the point where a weir was built. So bits are tidal, and bits aren't. Depending on the time of year and, guess, tides - bodies can make it over the weir, though.

Frequently, they were found a considerable distance from the bridge where they were thought to have gone in. And sometimes, they didn't float far, and were even a long time after they went in, suddenly found (for whatever reason) and identified by people who presumably knew them, in life. As a rule, for obvious reasons, they'd bury them quickly and unceremoniously - then provide the description of clothing/items in pockets, if the person was unidentifiable.

Rarely, but it did happen, a parish record might say the recovered body's name, and possibly that they were known to be in a bad way mentally, when last seen. But more often, a 'Found Drowned' would be recorded briefly in parish records just as a male or female, and you got the feeling - no-one came looking for them, and they were buried hastily in paupers' graves and never named subsequently. There were instances of bodies washing up 20 miles from where they went in. (Think there was a recent one of a woman in York who went missing the same month as Claudia Lawrence and her body was only found, in deep mud on the river bank, 5 or more miles out of town, a couple of years ago... ie: she'd been missing for a few years). I know of an accident in the 1830s where two bodies were never found, although a drag turned up one of their shawls. And they didn't come to light subsequently, either.

All a bit grisly, but also fascinating.

I have at least four ancestors who drowned in rivers. Two, (decades apart but met the same fate), according to newspaper accounts, falling in when drunk. Another, a baby who was accidentally dropped into the water by someone babysitting him and another, who was an inland mariner, just recorded in the parish records as "drowned". As a mariner, I'm assuming someone saw him fall in and recovered him immediately. On the same page of the parish record, was an elderly lady who was found drowned, who they seem to assume committed suicide, but no-one liked to say that too overtly, as that might have denied her burial in consecrated ground, I suppose.

As a side note, a story that has always fascinated me, is that of Shelley's first wife, Harriet, who was a Found Drowned. She was abandoned by Shelley and pregnant by someone else, when she died. No-one can account for her whereabouts in the final month of her life, when visibly pregnant, and 'disgraced', she drowned herself in the Serpentine in 1816. But it appeared her body had not been in the water long and her final three weeks are a total blank - no-one knew where she'd gone, til she turned up dead.

http://shelleysghost.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/harriet-shelleys-suicide-letter#Transcript
Morbid stuff but very interesting !
 

escargot

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As a side note, a story that has always fascinated me, is that of Shelley's first wife, Harriet, who was a Found Drowned. She was abandoned by Shelley and pregnant by someone else, when she died. No-one can account for her whereabouts in the final month of her life, when visibly pregnant, and 'disgraced', she drowned herself in the Serpentine in 1816. But it appeared her body had not been in the water long and her final three weeks are a total blank - no-one knew where she'd gone, til she turned up dead.
What a very sad and pathetic story. Makes my blood boil to think the poor woman had no-one to turn to, so she felt that she and her unborn child had to die.
Of course, back then the fall of an upper class woman was seen as especially shameful. It was bad enough for a respectable working class woman in that situation, but for Harriet there'd be nobody with a thing in common with her.
 

Ghost In The Machine

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What a very sad and pathetic story. Makes my blood boil to think the poor woman had no-one to turn to, so she felt that she and her unborn child had to die.
Of course, back then the fall of an upper class woman was seen as especially shameful. It was bad enough for a respectable working class woman in that situation, but for Harriet there'd be nobody with a thing in common with her.
No, she must have felt very alone. She knew he'd knocked up Mary Shelley as well, which must have been incredibly difficult for her to live with. They had two very young children from their marriage and she left them with her family, and went off to die alone. Incredibly sad. She was even buried under a pseudonym - family would have to hope a compassionate vicar would take pity and agree to bury their loved one in consecrated ground, which may be another reason (apart from the obvious) that Found Drowneds were often buried soon after they were found, with little ceremony - to protect the reputation of the dead person. I'm guessing many of my female Found Drowneds were in similar situations.

Also grim, but there was a huge accident on the river here where I live, in Regency times, and the jurors at the coroner's inquest, had to walk from house to house, to view the dead - each laid out in their own home. Even though they knew perfectly well how they'd died, they still had to go and view the bodies. Jurors consisted of other villagers who had known the dead all their lives and in some cases, were related to them. Many of the dead were teenagers. I have often thought of those jurors, in the middle of winter, walking from one friend and neighbour's house to another, to look at the recovered bodies. Must have been haunting.
 

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Another body found as glaciers recede, Swiss police predict hundreds more will emerge as the melt back continues. Climate change is having a similar effect in the French Alps with aircrash victims corpses recovered. Some mysteries are likely to be solved and others created. Expect specials from Discovery Channel.

Melting glaciers in Swiss Alps could reveal hundreds of mummified corpses
Frozen bodies of couple who vanished 75 years ago among those uncovered recently as global warming forces ice to retreat
Friday 4 August 2017 17.33 BST First published on Friday 4 August 2017 14.58 BST

Swiss police say hundreds of bodies of mountaineers who have gone missing in the Alps in the past century could emerge in coming years as global warming forces the country’s glaciers to retreat.

Alpine authorities have registered a significant increase in the number of human remains discovered last month, with the body of a man missing for 30 years the most recent to be uncovered.

Rescue teams in Saas Valley in the Valais canton were called last Tuesday after two climbers retreating from an aborted ascent spotted a hand and two shoes protruding from the Hohlaub glacier.

Rescuers spent two hours freeing the mummified body with icepicks and their bare hands, also recovering a silver wristwatch and a ring. A helicopter flew the remains to Bern, where forensics experts matched the DNA to that of a German citizen, born in 1943, who had gone missing on a hike in 11 August 1987.

One rescue worker said the man had worn shoes “unsuitable” for walking on ice, suggesting he may have slipped after walking a few metres onto the glacier and fallen down a crevice. Both feet had become detached from the body, indicating the force of the fall. ...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-alps-could-reveal-hundreds-mummified-corpses
 

ramonmercado

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Finally being brought home.

A group searching for the bodies of US troops has discovered graves that they believe contain more than 30 marines and sailors from World War Two.

The remains were discovered in March on the Pacific atoll of Tarawa, which was the scene of a three-day battle with the Japanese in November 1943. US defence department officials plan to transport the remains 2,300 miles (3,700km) to Hawaii for identification. More than 1,000 US troops died in fighting on the remote island.

The non-profit group that uncovered the remains, History Flight, has been working with the US defence department and the Republic of Kiribati, where Tarawa is located, to search for the dead soldiers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48775714
 

escargot

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Somewhat like the Neil Moss case in Peak Cavern (mentioned upthread) - these cavers bodies were found but not actually recovered...they were moved but reburied within the cave.

Mossdale Cavern tragedy
I remember that happening. The adults who discussed it in front of me were scornful of the 'potholers'.
 

escargot

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With reference to the above 1967 Mossdale deaths, here's a BBC radio programme about the incident from 2008.

1967 Mossdale Caverns Tragedy

Ray Kershaw recalls the 1967 tragedy at Mossdale Caverns, when six young potholers met their deaths when the underground cave flooded. The cavern became their grave and was permanently sealed off.
 

Bad Bungle

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I have no understanding why potholers need must go though such narrow holes...
When my sister was a member of Bristol University Caving Club in the 70's, they'd meet up in a Pub and line up all the chairs to form a tunnel. Newbies then had to crawl through the chair legs in the shortest time possible, which is more difficult than it sounds. Served her well when she found herself in a confined space underground with a tiny pin-point of light way above her. With a huge sense of relief she finally forced herself out of a rabbit hole.
 

CALGACUS03

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I remember that happening. The adults who discussed it in front of me were scornful of the 'potholers'.
I think that there are definitely mixed feelings amongst cavers too.

On the one hand the danger of that particular cave is known and recognised and no-one wants to see a repeat of the events of 1967.

On the other, it would be like closing off the summit of Everest or K2 because of the deaths that have occurred there and saying "no-one can do this climb again; it's too dangerous".

From the caving clubs that I've been a member of, I definitely got mixed messages about how the members felt about it.

Things are complicated somewhat because Mossdale is thought to open out into another, known, cave system and it's making that sort of connection that drives many cavers to push the exploration of caves in the first place.

From Wikipedia:

It is thought that the cave system may hold the key to breaking into the Great Scar Limestone and the extensive cave that exists behind Black Keld.
The cave was sealed off and, officially, still is, but my understanding is that some cavers on the more extreme fringes of the pastime have re-opened it.

Actually a Google search found the following on the Council of Northern Caving Clubs site:

The access situation at Mossdale Caverns is slightly complex following a serious incident in the 1960s which resulted in the entrance being sealed (but soon after reopened by cavers). For decades, access to Mossdale Caverns was robustly refused by the landowner and the gamekeepers. However, advice that the CNCC has received by regular visitors since 2010 onwards suggests that the situation has mellowed and the gamekeepers are now accepting of access.
..
The CNCC recommends that if visiting Mossdale, and you meet any gamekeeper, be polite and open about your intentions. Heed the flood warning!
That Mossdale page on the websire holds a:

WARNING
Issued: 7 November 2017
Mossdale Caverns is a seriously flood-prone cave, with passages only a few minutes into the entrance filling to the roof in flood and passages further into the cave sumping with only a small rise in river levels. Mossdale must only be considered following at least two days of dry weather and with an absolute certainty of no rain during your trip.
 

escargot

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I think that there are definitely mixed feelings amongst cavers too.

On the one hand the danger of that particular cave is known and recognised and no-one wants to see a repeat of the events of 1967.

On the other, it would be like closing off the summit of Everest or K2 because of the deaths that have occurred there and saying "no-one can do this climb again; it's too dangerous".

From the caving clubs that I've been a member of, I definitely got mixed messages about how the members felt about it.

Things are complicated somewhat because Mossdale is thought to open out into another, known, cave system and it's making that sort of connection that drives many cavers to push the exploration of caves in the first place.

From Wikipedia:



The cave was sealed off and, officially, still is, but my understanding is that some cavers on the more extreme fringes of the pastime have re-opened it.

Actually a Google search found the following on the Council of Northern Caving Clubs site:



That Mossdale page on the websire holds a:
Thank you, what a terrific post. Very informative.

I'd read that the Mossdale caves were still being explored. Although not a caver myself I've been acquainted with and even related to some (and I bet you know them!) and used to help with repairing their gear. My universities had caving clubs who'd all go off for weekends together in the minibus and have a super time.

Can remember installing zips in the ankles of a sturdy wetsuit to make it more user-friendly. That was a job and a half!

Anyway... I understand the closing of the cave was the decision of the landowners. One can see why they wouldn't want to risk a repeat of 1967. It was a huge disruption and must have been distressing for everyone.
 

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I'd read that the Mossdale caves were still being explored. Although not a caver myself I've been acquainted with and even related to some (and I bet you know them!) and used to help with repairing their gear. My universities had caving clubs who'd all go off for weekends together in the minibus and have a super time.
It's been years since I was actively caving. I was a member of the Portsmouth Polytechnic Caving Club when I was a student and caved in the Mendips (from the Cerberus Spelaeological Society base) and in South Wales (with the South Wales Caving Club) with them and had great times (as you describe). :D

More recently I joined, for a short time, the Grampian Speleaological Group, before I decided that I was too old to be starting caving again and my actual reasons for joining possibly had more to do with trying to recapture my lost youth than with caving itself. (Damn you mid-life crisis!)
 

escargot

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It's been years since I was actively caving. I was a member of the Portsmouth Polytechnic Caving Club when I was a student and caved in the Mendips (from the Cerberus Spelaeological Society base) and in South Wales (with the South Wales Caving Club) with them and had great times (as you describe). :D

More recently I joined, for a short time, the Grampian Speleaological Group, before I decided that I was too old to be starting caving again and my actual reasons for joining possibly had more to do with trying to recapture my lost youth than with caving itself. (Damn you mid-life crisis!)
Techy and I have been watching those caving/cave diving deaths videos, most recently of Bushman's hole.

o_O


We've now agreed not to try caving, on grounds of age, portliness and lack of space for bicycles.

Plenty of people do it and have great fun and I wish them well.
 

catseye

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Techy and I have been watching those caving/cave diving deaths videos, most recently of Bushman's hole.

o_O


We've now agreed not to try caving, on grounds of age, portliness and lack of space for bicycles.

Plenty of people do it and have great fun and I wish them well.
Cave biking. Now there's a specialised interest sport.
 

Kondoru

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I call fake.

We all know in prehistoric times they rode racers and not mountain bikes.

Mountain bikes did not come in until Roman times, and in many areas, not until the sub-Roman
 
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