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Fraudulent Psychics & Mediums

GadaffiDuck said:
For my friend's daughter, the de-programming consisted of, I suppose, a very gentle form of socratic irony and then re-building self-esteem....The thing was, she hadn't gone all 'Mooney' eyed..
So you talked her round a bit, then, as opposed to actually de-programming her?
 
Well, I'm not sure what the difference is. She had stopped attending school and was definitely getting pissed, staying out and not coming home and spending alot of time with 'these people'. She is now back in school and not drinking. Yes, it is talking around, but I submit it is also de-programming (as her behaviour patterns have been changed). As said, this is not my area of expertise.

edit: if you mean did I hypnotise her, sleep deprive her or keep her locked up; then no...not in the slightest.
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Well, I'm not sure what the difference is. She had stopped attending school and was definitely getting pissed, staying out and not coming home and spending alot of time with 'these people'. She is now back in school and not drinking. Yes, it is talking around, but I submit it is also de-programming (as her behaviour patterns have been changed). As said, this is not my area of expertise.
In which case, and given your self-admitted psychological training, didn't you feel the course of action on your part was be a) potentially very dangerous, b) certainly unethical to practise a discipline in which you are untrained and c), as it was presumably initially against her will, quite probably illegal?
 
a) not dangerous, as I used counselling techniques - which anyone can use b) so see answer one (one does not have to be qualified, in this country, to be a counsellor) and c) the daughter trusts me, and so was willing to talk to me - so nothing illegal or against anyone's will.

The main reason the folks asked me was that they did not want social services getting involved - the school was starting to make noises about exclusion and the daughter's radical behaviour change. They asked me if I could help - I explained what I could attempt. They agreed and the daughter agreed to talk to me.

edit: Let me give you an example you may get less wound up about terms: I do not have a hypnosis qualification. I am entirely self-taught. I do not advertise myself as a hypnotist. However, a number of my friends have asked to be hypnotised for various reasons. Note: I do not charge. Hypnosis is not dangerous (don't believe the guff) and the only thing about counselling that is bad are those that keep making people live through an experience again and again and again...which is something I wouldn't do either.

Over the half year I will get a psychotherapy/counselling qualification (but this is so I have a fall back career while attempting to get a doctorate - if the bastards ever get back to me....gah)
 
Gadaffi Duck wrote
The main reason the folks asked me was that they did not want social services getting involved - the school was starting to make noises about exclusion and the daughter's radical behaviour change. They asked me if I could help - I explained what I could attempt. They agreed and the daughter agreed to talk to me.


Just 2 points:

Firstly, unless there is class A drug use, usually coupled with sexual abuse/prostitution, social services being involved via a school is very rare due to the fact that they are completely snowed under with other cases referred from elsewhere. There are many other outside agencies to deal with unruly children who do not attend for various reasons and social services are the last port of call. So if social services are acting immediately they are very lucky people.

Secondly, schools do not exclude children for non-attendance. Sort of defeats the object don't you think? Bad behaviour and a change in habits, from a normally well behaved pupil, would be looked at and dealt with by the school with a lot of parental/pupil/school interaction. That's if it's a decent school (which if they are involving SS so early on) they're fantastic and if they are talking about exclusion without investigation then they're crap. So which one are they? If they're crap and have just tossed it to social services, they won't touch any referal without the necessary paperwork. Which means if they're crap they won't have done it.

Schools are loathe to permanently exclude any child. This is due to certain procedures which are put in place and then final total agreement with the governers. The school are also docked about £6k per permanent exclusion so it's not something they do lightly.
 
I think the parents, my friends, (who are middle class and v.respectable) were getting v.worried about the whole thing. They sent their daughter to the large local comp out of, I believe, political reasons (in my opinion, they could afford to send her to a private school). Anyhoo, all I know is that the word 'exclusion' was bandied about. These are people who have never had to deal with social services and that (their words) 'bit of the world'. They mentioned to me that social services might get involved. As to what would actually happen, you know better than I. IMO, the school is a disaster, unless you are very lucky.

RE: Drugs. I couldn't find out if class A's were involved with this little group - I reckon booze and spliff (however, as this is london, Coke is probably more common as a white powder than a drink..! :shock: ). However, as said, I can only speculate - I'm sure that this chap will get into trouble one day.

RE: the deprogramming (or talking around, if you like), I can only say again - I am trusted by the family and have a gentle, patient approach when dealing with most people's problems (also, as they have known me for +20 years, I am sorta like family anyway). I can tell you as part of what I considered her de-programming was re-teaching her how to study - I was amazed at how poor her attention was (no, not bloody ADHD - too easy to diagnose that). However, thankfully, her ability to study at length has returned. It needed some discipline and guidleines + a patient teacher. I am very please how things have turned out - yet, I am still concerned by how people use 'magic and mysticism' to cover ulterior motives, and horrified at the result I saw. Perhaps, it was more shocking for me as I was closer to the family and couldn't maintain as 'removed' view.
 
GadaffiDuck said:
edit: Let me give you an example you may get less wound up about terms: I do not have a hypnosis qualification. I am entirely self-taught. I do not advertise myself as a hypnotist. However, a number of my friends have asked to be hypnotised for various reasons. Note: I do not charge. Hypnosis is not dangerous (don't believe the guff) and the only thing about counselling that is bad are those that keep making people live through an experience again and again and again...which is something I wouldn't do either.

This depends - for what purpose are your friends asking you to hypnotise them? Hypnosis in itself, ie, for entertainment, is not dangerous when undertaken by someone unqualified and self taught. However, hypnotherapy, where the purpose of the hypnosis is to permanently change behaviour, can be dangerous when practiced by an unqualified person. Unless a therapist (in any area, this is not exclusive to hypnotherapy) understands the possible long term effects of a method of behavioural change, it is possible to cause damage to the subject.
 
Nah, hypnosis doesn't work like that. I have used hypnosis, when asked, to see if I could get someone (with one session) to stop smoking; to stop biting their nails and to lose weight. The best results I got before behaviour reverted to the original was 6 weeks (for the smoking funnily enough). No hypnosis is not dangerous - you only do what you want to do.
 
So, mediums/psychics: I don't think they have any powers. However, I think many could be very good analysts.

edit: cor, I'm amazed at what activity this thread has had...clearly, there must be psychics :lol:
 
I'm not going to get into a pointless online argument about "how hypnosis works" with someone who is self-professedly unqualified in the area.

I reiterate that any behavioural therapy (including hypnotherapy and deprogramming cult victims), in unqualified hands, can have unpredicted long-term effects. If the unqualified person is not entirely sure what these effects may be, erring on the side of caution and referring the person seeking help to a qualified therapist is the safest course of action.
 
Okay. You are entirely wrong in your assumptions. It doesn't take much to get a hypnosis qualification or counselling qualification in this country. Many counsellers and hypnotists know very little about psychology, that is why these things are not really regulated (apart from their own organisations) in any stringent way. It is very nice that they have rules and regulations, but these are self imposed and not law.

Further, by and large, will power works better than hypnosis; seeing your friends is usually better than seeing a counsellor (many are not psychologists, nor have anything other than a few months training).
Note, hypnosis etc is not a patch on CBT which really does seem to offer amazing changes in behaviour.

I state categorically that hypnosis is not dangerous (it does leave people in comas, or schizophrenic cf the Paul McEnna case). Do I think it should be regulated by law and with goverment guidelines? Yes. Do I think counselling and therapists should be regulated by law and government guidelines? Yes. I believe they can often do more harm than good, but in a dangerous way.
 
They're not assumptions, and I'm not "entirely wrong". I can't be arsed explaining to you how I know this, because I'll only be told I'm wrong again.

I just hope the friends you have "treated" remain well, and that if they do suffer any long term damage from your amateur therapies, they have access to proper, qualified, professional help and do not return to you for "treatment" that may further damage them.



*Shuffles back into lurking cupboard, slapping forehead and muttering "why did I bother?"...
 
GadaffiDuck said:
RE: the deprogramming (or talking around, if you like), I can only say again - I am trusted by the family and have a gentle, patient approach when dealing with most people's problems (also, as they have known me for +20 years, I am sorta like family anyway). I can tell you as part of what I considered her de-programming was re-teaching her how to study - I was amazed at how poor her attention was (no, not bloody ADHD - too easy to diagnose that). However, thankfully, her ability to study at length has returned. It needed some discipline and guidleines + a patient teacher. I am very please how things have turned out - yet, I am still concerned by how people use 'magic and mysticism' to cover ulterior motives, and horrified at the result I saw. Perhaps, it was more shocking for me as I was closer to the family and couldn't maintain as 'removed' view.

Hypnosis aside Duck, lets just say you had a little chat with a disaffected teenager. Someone who'd fallen into the wrong crowd, someone who was a bit peeved with life, school and the whole shebang and wanting something a bit different, someone who felt mis-understood, someone who was basically having trouble with being a teenager and growing up?

You said it yourself, you have a patient approach and maybe her parents thought that you could succeed where they failed, in talking to her. Maybe she appreciated someone who wasn't, as she saw, "old" maybe she saw you as an advocate who listened and gave her some sound advice.

So lets draw a line under this de-programming malarky and just be proud of yourself you managed to get someone to pick up their books and go back to school because you made them feel worthwhile and appreciated once more and they respected what you said.
 
Actually, I would only be happy if she went to a CBT practitioner. However, I'm glad you wish her well (you are the first to do so); I am happy with the way things have gone and she seems very much to be the person she used to be. BTW, if you really want to start a thread on hypnosis, I will argue about it there with you. I may not be qualified as a hypnotist, but I studied hypnosis (in relation to memory, perception etc) and have recenlty researched hypnotic methods quite extensively (going back to Williams James' work on suggestion - 1898).

Back on thread - relating to my above experience, this 'chap' uses tarot, palm reading and some NLP style anchoring and so forth. He claims mediumship too. He's not bad at cold reading, not good enough for a hall though. Indeed, all his stuff seems to be people reading.
 
All else aside, I think it's probably a good idea that the social services weren't involved, as I imagine they'd take a very dim view of terms like "deprogramming" being brought into the equation :shock:
 
All too true throw - btw, thanks Tyger (the posting order seemed to get mucked up, I wasn't 'not answering'). BTW, it wasnt' a session - I spent two weeks hard working with my friends on this.

All I can say is we can pick and choose terms. AT the end of the day, this girl got involved with a bloody mysticky medium type and it caused all kinds of hassle. Sorry, if you don't like my terms, but it felt like I was involved in a deprogramming - that is how I perceived it; and in effect, brought her back to the person she was. So, let's agree to differ and be glad the girl is okay now.

Hypnosis we can argue about on another thread - don't get me wrong, I am fascinated by it; I just don't believe it is what many people think it is -there are some effects, but the danger stories you hear, are just that. Much mythology.

So, I've had my say, you've had your say, let's talk about examples of whether someone is demonstrating flimflam or a real gift (just coz I don't believe, doesn't mean I won't investigate/read or be interested)
 
Man, where were all these groovy leering older svengali types with their tarot decks and their beer and dope when I was at school?

I'd have been round there like a shot!
 
Well you get the st.trinian's outfit, I'll tell ya where the lech drinks coffee and spouts his 'insights' :lol:
 
This wasn't a 'little chat' though was it? As far as you were concerned, it was 'deprogramming'. Deprogramming involves far more than a friendly talk about going off the rails.

It can include abduction, imprisonment and physical, verbal and even sexual abuse, all of which are illegal. Doing this to, I presume, a teenage girl is not something a respectable person should be contemplating.

As has been mentioned, Social Services might be very interested indeed to discover that any of these things had been done to a young girl, especially if she is under 18 and it was done by an older male family 'friend'.
 
GadaffiDuck said:
Hypnosis we can argue about on another thread - don't get me wrong, I am fascinated by it; I just don't believe it is what many people think it is -there are some effects, but the danger stories you hear, are just that. Much mythology.

*Reads own post about "being told I'm wrong again". Tuts. Puts head round lurking cupboard door one last time.*

No, not "mythology". More than one case history of genuine psychological damage caused to a person by an unqualified amateur hypnotherapist who thought they were "helping", much as you appear to be doing.

Please stop it before you really harm someone.
 
Well you get the st.trinian's outfit, I'll tell ya where the lech drinks coffee and spouts his 'insights'

Nah, I'm probably older than him now and we'd probably clash over some interpretation of a minor arcanum and the kids would laugh at my trainers.
My days of being led astray are sadly over I fear.
 
edit: in response to escargot: ERm, did you read any of the above, or just selectively?. Parents permission and that of their daughter (all above board and interviews conducted with parents about 6ft away in the same room) - indeed, they invited me to see if I could help.

Why not be happy that she is back on track at school and no longer seeing an aging 'warlock' with dubious habits?
 
Fizz, I would be happy to look at any evidence you can get. The worst that can happen with a trance is that someone can go to sleep. Hypnosis cannot induce schizophrenia. If you have anything else, please tell me - I'm certainly missing that knowledge from my reading.


it is amazing how this obscure thread has become so popular.
 
I thought I was. The parapsych thread is usually under subscribed - it is nice to get a debate going on here. I thought it might be funny to allude to coincidence (but leave it to someone else to suggest a paranormal explanation).
 
I think it's likely, Ducky, that you've pissed a few people off by the way you suggested that deprogramming is something you do at the drop of a hat. Maybe you should be a little less eager to self-aggrandize in the future. Just an idea. 8) ;)
 
Ah, it wasn't done at the drop of the hat - though I will try and help any of my friends to the best of my ability; I was merely expressing how horrid the situation was, and how happy I was to have helped (when I first posted, it was not long after the situation). I make no apologies.
 
So both her parents were present while you 'deprogrammed' her, were they? If her parents are both together on this disagreement over the company she keeps, why did they feel a need to bring in an unqualified third party?

More worryingly, next time she misbehaves, are you going to be blamed for influencing her too much/too little? Or are you the threat that's going to be held over her?
Also, do you feel that you have some power over her now? Does she? Do her parents?

If she feels a need to disclose sexual abuse at some time in the future, do you realise you might be named? That's what abuse victims sometimes do - accuse someone close rather than the real offender.

I think you have opened a nasty can of worms with your silly mind-games.
The decent, and sensible, thing to do is to stay out of families' problems.
 
Sorry, dude..I'm sure you thought long and hard about exactly how you would 'deprogramme' this girl..what I object to is that you felt the need to sensationalize it here in an attempt to gain some kudos..something a mindful therapist would never do, unless maybe you need some supervision?
 
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