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Fraudulent Psychics & Mediums

I have been looking at Victorian mediums and the rise of Spiritualism in the second half of the 19th century. Found this experiment conducted by Derren Brown very helpful in trying to work out what possibly went on.
This is titled 'Seance Full Episode'
And this is an extract
Derren Brown showcases a Victorian era Spirit Cabinet
 
Mr Bleak said:
Derren Brown
Click to expand...
I think I have mentioned it elsewhere, but one time when I was working for an art restoring company, I carried out a delivery to Derren Browns apartment in Baker Street. He wasn't there, a friend of his provided access, and the apartment was....er....unusual in its decorative style, much like a Victorian gentleman's 'curio cabinet'.
 
Trevp666 said:
I think I have mentioned it elsewhere, but one time when I was working for an art restoring company, I carried out a delivery to Derren Browns apartment in Baker Street. He wasn't there, a friend of his provided access, and the apartment was....er....unusual in its decorative style, much like a Victorian gentleman's 'curio cabinet'.
Click to expand...
More* detail required please thank you

*MUCH more. Nauseatingly detailed is about the correct level.
 
escargot said:
More* detail required please thank you

*MUCH more. Nauseatingly detailed is about the correct level.
Click to expand...
There's not much more detail I can give really. It was a job I only did for 3 months. They had many 'celebrities' that they either stored or renovated pieces of art for.
With regards Derren Brown I don't think he would appreciate me giving details about his private home.
But I expect there is a website with details of some of his possessions.
Ah - apparently he doesn't live there any more. See this link to a Daily Mail article on the sale of the place. I recall all of the shelves and rooms being jam packed with 'stuff'. He probably sold it to buy a bigger place so he could get more 'stuff'.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-5m-just-round-corner-Chiltern-Firehouse.html
 
This person should be banned from working as a carer.

A home carer and self-described 'psychic medium' has denied deceiving two siblings out of €10,200 by telling them their deceased father told them to give her the money.

Debbie Paget, of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin, has pleaded not guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to two counts of dishonestly by deception, inducing James Byrne and Maria Byrne to give two sums of cash, totalling €10,200.

In his evidence to the jury on Friday, James Byrne told Oisin Clarke BL, prosecuting, that he and his sister Maria and their mother lived together at Glendhu Road, Cabra, Dublin. He said Ms Paget was a home carer for a neighbour, which was how they got to know her. He said on one occasion, Ms Paget invited him to “a reading” and he thought this was a fortune-telling during which he would find out about his future.

He said Ms Paget told him he might be touched on the shoulder by his late brother or father during the reading. “I said to myself, could this be true; but I never felt anything,” he told the jury.

He added Ms Paget started talking about his father, and said: “Your father said you are to give me €10,000. She didn't give any reason. I believed my father was telling me to give her €10,000,” he said, adding he felt pressurised during the reading and gave his word to give her the money.

Mr Byrne said the next day she came to his house, noting at that stage she was acting as a home carer for his sister who was recuperating from an accident.

His sister also testified that she gave €200 to Ms Paget after the defendant told her during “a reading” that her deceased father had communicated with her and said Ms Byrne should give her €200.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...ving-siblings-out-of-over-e10000-1474940.html
 
Quite a worrying case. From reading the newspaper article, seems that the trial is still going on. Interesting to see what else emerges. Notice that the individual bringing the complaint maintains that the 'psychic medium' advised the following.
"He added Ms Paget asked him: “When are you getting the money” and told him: “If you don't, it will be a sin and the devil will get you.”"
So far it looks like someone with rather dubious motives hitting on a vulnerable individual for financial gain.
 
Mr Bleak said:
Quite a worrying case. From reading the newspaper article, seems that the trial is still going on. Interesting to see what else emerges. Notice that the individual bringing the complaint maintains that the 'psychic medium' advised the following.
"He added Ms Paget asked him: “When are you getting the money” and told him: “If you don't, it will be a sin and the devil will get you.”"
So far it looks like someone with rather dubious motives hitting on a vulnerable individual for financial gain.
Click to expand...
And the use of 'it will be a sin' is preying on the, presumed Catholic, beliefs of the subject.
 
ramonmercado said:
This person should be banned from working as a carer.

A home carer and self-described 'psychic medium' has denied deceiving two siblings out of €10,200 by telling them their deceased father told them to give her the money.

Debbie Paget, of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin, has pleaded not guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to two counts of dishonestly by deception, inducing James Byrne and Maria Byrne to give two sums of cash, totalling €10,200.

In his evidence to the jury on Friday, James Byrne told Oisin Clarke BL, prosecuting, that he and his sister Maria and their mother lived together at Glendhu Road, Cabra, Dublin. He said Ms Paget was a home carer for a neighbour, which was how they got to know her. He said on one occasion, Ms Paget invited him to “a reading” and he thought this was a fortune-telling during which he would find out about his future.

He said Ms Paget told him he might be touched on the shoulder by his late brother or father during the reading. “I said to myself, could this be true; but I never felt anything,” he told the jury.

He added Ms Paget started talking about his father, and said: “Your father said you are to give me €10,000. She didn't give any reason. I believed my father was telling me to give her €10,000,” he said, adding he felt pressurised during the reading and gave his word to give her the money.

Mr Byrne said the next day she came to his house, noting at that stage she was acting as a home carer for his sister who was recuperating from an accident.

His sister also testified that she gave €200 to Ms Paget after the defendant told her during “a reading” that her deceased father had communicated with her and said Ms Byrne should give her €200.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...ving-siblings-out-of-over-e10000-1474940.html
Click to expand...

I wonder if she has predicted the verdict?

A jury has begun deliberations in the trial of a “psychic medium” accused of deceiving two siblings of €10,200 by telling them their deceased father told them to give her the money.

Debbie Paget, of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin has pleaded not guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to two counts of dishonestly by deception inducing James Byrne and Maria Byrne to give two sums of cash, totalling €10,200.

On Monday, jurors heard closing speeches from prosecution and defence lawyers before Judge Pauline Codd directed them in the law.

The jury began deliberations around 3.30pm and resume deliberations on Tuesday.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...-of-deceiving-siblings-of-e10200-1476054.html
 
ramonmercado said:
I wonder if she has predicted the verdict?

A jury has begun deliberations in the trial of a “psychic medium” accused of deceiving two siblings of €10,200 by telling them their deceased father told them to give her the money.

Debbie Paget, of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin has pleaded not guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court to two counts of dishonestly by deception inducing James Byrne and Maria Byrne to give two sums of cash, totalling €10,200.

On Monday, jurors heard closing speeches from prosecution and defence lawyers before Judge Pauline Codd directed them in the law.

The jury began deliberations around 3.30pm and resume deliberations on Tuesday.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...-of-deceiving-siblings-of-e10200-1476054.html
Click to expand...

Guilty!

A home carer and “psychic medium” has been convicted of deceiving a man of €10,000 by telling him his deceased father had told her he should give her the money.

Debbie Paget (56) of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin was on trial at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court charged with dishonestly inducing by deception James Byrne to give her €10,000. She was also charged with dishonestly inducing by deception Maria Byrne to give her €200.

She had pleaded not (NOT) guilty to both offences. After deliberating for a little over four hours, the jury found Paget guilty, by a majority, of the first count and returned a not guilty verdict on the second count.

Judge Pauline Codd remanded Paget on continuing bail to July 10 for a sentence hearing. She thanked the jury for its service. “It was a highly unusual case. We appreciate the work you have done,” she said.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41140630.html
 
On another thread in this forum I mentioned
" Remember consulting 'The Spiritualists-The Passion for the Occult in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries' by Ruth Brandon ( 1983) .
There was a mention of a London medium by the name of Mrs Marshall who received a visit from the spirit of David Livingstone -at a time when he was held to be lost in Africa. This spirit informed Mrs Marshall and her sister that he had been killed by natives and eaten. Of course Doctor Livingstone was found alive. I am not sure of the date of the seance in question but think that this would have been around 1870."
I am trying to find out more about this. I gather that Mrs Marshall later blamed the spirit that appeared for having tricked her by repeating what we now call 'fake news' . This intrigues me as a Christian friend of mine opposes seances on the grounds that the participants are leaving themselves open to spirits who could be harmful or mischief making.
So Mrs Marshall may have had genuine psychic powers but not perceptive enough to realise that a spirit was intent on making appear to be a bit of a silly sausage. Alternately she may have just projected her own anxieties and prejudices to devise a 'Carry on up the Jungle' scenario.
 
I expect Mrs Marshall would have cemented her reputation as a successful psychic had news appeared that Livingstone had been killed by natives.
The 'I told you so' would have been strong with that one.
 
Trevp666 said:
I expect Mrs Marshall would have cemented her reputation as a successful psychic had news appeared that Livingstone had been killed by natives.
The 'I told you so' would have been strong with that one.
Click to expand...
Indeed. I understand the more sceptical approach is to look at possible outcomes to a scenario such as Dr Livingstone going missing in Africa, and there could just be quite mundane speculation to whether he would be found or not. On the balance of probabilities there is a chance that an ordinary guess could be correct.
A problem I have with 'psychic' predictions generally is great emphasis is placed when they appear to be correct, and not enough on when they are wildly off the mark.
 
ramonmercado said:
Guilty!

A home carer and “psychic medium” has been convicted of deceiving a man of €10,000 by telling him his deceased father had told her he should give her the money.

Debbie Paget (56) of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin was on trial at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court charged with dishonestly inducing by deception James Byrne to give her €10,000. She was also charged with dishonestly inducing by deception Maria Byrne to give her €200.

She had pleaded not (NOT) guilty to both offences. After deliberating for a little over four hours, the jury found Paget guilty, by a majority, of the first count and returned a not guilty verdict on the second count.

Judge Pauline Codd remanded Paget on continuing bail to July 10 for a sentence hearing. She thanked the jury for its service. “It was a highly unusual case. We appreciate the work you have done,” she said.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41140630.html
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I'm actually quite surprised that she was found guilty at all. I'd question how much 'deception' became 'self-deception' in a case like this. If someone came up to me in the street and told me that my deceased mother had told me to give them £10,000, then I would laugh so hard my wig would come off. The phrase 'pull the other one' would be uttered more than once. Not least because I knew my mother, and parting with money was NOT top of her agenda...

I suppose the nearest charge you could use would be 'demanding money with menaces', if you believed in the Devil. But how not handing over money could ever be called a sin....?
 
catseye said:
I'm actually quite surprised that she was found guilty at all. I'd question how much 'deception' became 'self-deception' in a case like this. If someone came up to me in the street and told me that my deceased mother had told me to give them £10,000, then I would laugh so hard my wig would come off. The phrase 'pull the other one' would be uttered more than once. Not least because I knew my mother, and parting with money was NOT top of her agenda...

I suppose the nearest charge you could use would be 'demanding money with menaces', if you believed in the Devil. But how not handing over money could ever be called a sin....?
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She was charged with committing an offence of deception under the relevant act and was convicted of that. The law is robust enough to deal with varying and unorthodox means of intimidation. She had defence counsel who were well able to argue the toss. It's worthwhile reading the full articles about the case.
 
ramonmercado said:
She was charged with committing an offence of deception under the relevant act and was convicted of that. The law is robust enough to deal with varying and unorthodox means of intimidation. She had defence counsel who were well able to argue the toss. It's worthwhile reading the full articles about the case.
Click to expand...
I did.
 
ramonmercado said:
And you didn't find the evidence put forward in anyway convincing that the accused had actually broken a law/committed a crime?
Click to expand...
To be honest I thought the entire thing was utterly baffling. She's guilty of something - manipulating the vulnerable perhaps, but when you cross-reference this to all the people being swindled of their life savings by non-existent internet 'girlfriends' - cases which seem to attract nothing but the disapproval of the masses - is there a difference?
 
catseye said:
To be honest I thought the entire thing was utterly baffling. She's guilty of something - manipulating the vulnerable perhaps, but when you cross-reference this to all the people being swindled of their life savings by non-existent internet 'girlfriends' - cases which seem to attract nothing but the disapproval of the masses - is there a difference?
Click to expand...

But these people can also be tried for criminal offences if they are tracked down and the prosecution has enough evidence against them. In this case the crook was tracked down, charged, tried and convicted.
 
ramonmercado said:
But these people can also be tried for criminal offences if they are tracked down and the prosecution has enough evidence against them. In this case the crook was tracked down, charged, tried and convicted.
Click to expand...
I think my question was rather not 'is she guilty' but 'where does personal responsibility for not falling for someone asking you for money cut in'. If someone walks up to you in the street and asks you to give them £100 or they will curse you, is that demanding money with menaces? What if you don't believe in curses and just laugh and walk away? Is it then a crime or not? Or an attempted crime?

In the case of the romance fraudsters, they can be prosecuted if someone stands up and says that they've been swindled out of money by someone pretending to be their girlfriend, but what if they don't? If the 'relationship' just ends, for whatever reason, they've still lost that money, they just don't realise they've been swindled. It's still a crime - but if someone doesn't realise they've been swindled...is it?
 
ramonmercado said:
Guilty!

A home carer and “psychic medium” has been convicted of deceiving a man of €10,000 by telling him his deceased father had told her he should give her the money.

Debbie Paget (56) of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin was on trial at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court charged with dishonestly inducing by deception James Byrne to give her €10,000. She was also charged with dishonestly inducing by deception Maria Byrne to give her €200.

She had pleaded not (NOT) guilty to both offences. After deliberating for a little over four hours, the jury found Paget guilty, by a majority, of the first count and returned a not guilty verdict on the second count.

Judge Pauline Codd remanded Paget on continuing bail to July 10 for a sentence hearing. She thanked the jury for its service. “It was a highly unusual case. We appreciate the work you have done,” she said.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-41140630.html
Click to expand...

Update.

A “psychic medium” described by a judge as “an old-fashioned confidence trickster” has been jailed for a year after she got a man to give her €10,000 by telling him his deceased father had told her that if he did not give her the money “the devil would take his soul”.

Debbie Paget (55), of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin, was convicted by a Dublin Circuit Criminal Court jury last May.

She had pleaded not guilty to dishonestly inducing by deception James Byrne to give her €10,000. She was also charged with dishonestly inducing by deception Maria Byrne, Mr Byrne’s sister, to give her €200.

After deliberating for a little over four hours, the jury found Paget guilty, by a majority, of the first count and returned a not guilty verdict on the second count. ...

Judge Pauline Codd said it was quite clear from Mr Byrne’s demeanour in court that he is a vulnerable person. She said Paget had told him that his deceased father had told her that if Mr Byrne did not give her €10,000 “the devil would take his soul”.

She said Paget was criminally liable as she had taken large sums of money under threat, “even though those are supernatural threats”. The judge described the offence as “cunning and manipulative” and that Paget had “taken advantage” of Mr Byrne.

“Far from offering him spiritual comfort, she devised a make-believe threat to his soul,” Judge Codd said before she added that it doesn’t matter that the threat seemed “fantastical” because Mr Byrne believed it to be true and felt obligated to hand over the cash.

“Needless to say, her objective was far more worldly in nature, to enrich herself by manipulating a vulnerable man whose buttons she knew how to press,” Judge Codd continued.

She described Paget as “an old-fashioned confidence trickster” and added that the offence represented a breach of trust.

Judge Codd stated that there has been no expression of remorse or attempt to pay back the money but acknowledged that Paget herself had “particular vulnerabilities”. She sentenced Paget to 18 months in prison and suspended the final six months on strict conditions.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/psychic-medium-jailed-for-e10000-deception-1500039.html
 
catseye said:
I think my question was rather not 'is she guilty' but 'where does personal responsibility for not falling for someone asking you for money cut in'. If someone walks up to you in the street and asks you to give them £100 or they will curse you, is that demanding money with menaces? What if you don't believe in curses and just laugh and walk away? Is it then a crime or not? Or an attempted crime?

In the case of the romance fraudsters, they can be prosecuted if someone stands up and says that they've been swindled out of money by someone pretending to be their girlfriend, but what if they don't? If the 'relationship' just ends, for whatever reason, they've still lost that money, they just don't realise they've been swindled. It's still a crime - but if someone doesn't realise they've been swindled...is it?
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Couldn't help but be reminded of Sideshow Bob's question about his crime:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...4AIABdogBrAySAQQyMC4ymAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz
 
The fraudulent mediums act was replaced in May 2008 by Schedule 4 of the Consumer Protection Act targeting unfair sales and marketing practices.

Wikipedia reports that there were five prosecutions under this Act between 1980 and 1995, all resulting in conviction.

Given my limited experience with mediums and the number of them operating these days, I find that number incredibly low?

Maybe they should go in front of an examining board and those proven to be genuine get a licence to conduct that type of business.
 
Tempest63 said:
Wikipedia reports that there were five prosecutions under this Act between 1980 and 1995, all resulting in conviction.

Given my limited experience with mediums and the number of them operating these days, I find that number incredibly low?
Click to expand...
Well, the good ones can see it coming so avoid prosecution.
 
Tempest63 said:
The fraudulent mediums act was replaced in May 2008 by Schedule 4 of the Consumer Protection Act targeting unfair sales and marketing practices.

Wikipedia reports that there were five prosecutions under this Act between 1980 and 1995, all resulting in conviction.

Given my limited experience with mediums and the number of them operating these days, I find that number incredibly low?

Maybe they should go in front of an examining board and those proven to be genuine get a licence to conduct that type of business.
Click to expand...
Perhaps not many people complain or, if they do, they don't bring charges?
 
ramonmercado said:
Update.

A “psychic medium” described by a judge as “an old-fashioned confidence trickster” has been jailed for a year after she got a man to give her €10,000 by telling him his deceased father had told her that if he did not give her the money “the devil would take his soul”.

Debbie Paget (55), of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin, was convicted by a Dublin Circuit Criminal Court jury last May.

She had pleaded not guilty to dishonestly inducing by deception James Byrne to give her €10,000. She was also charged with dishonestly inducing by deception Maria Byrne, Mr Byrne’s sister, to give her €200.

After deliberating for a little over four hours, the jury found Paget guilty, by a majority, of the first count and returned a not guilty verdict on the second count. ...

Judge Pauline Codd said it was quite clear from Mr Byrne’s demeanour in court that he is a vulnerable person. She said Paget had told him that his deceased father had told her that if Mr Byrne did not give her €10,000 “the devil would take his soul”.

She said Paget was criminally liable as she had taken large sums of money under threat, “even though those are supernatural threats”. The judge described the offence as “cunning and manipulative” and that Paget had “taken advantage” of Mr Byrne.

“Far from offering him spiritual comfort, she devised a make-believe threat to his soul,” Judge Codd said before she added that it doesn’t matter that the threat seemed “fantastical” because Mr Byrne believed it to be true and felt obligated to hand over the cash.

“Needless to say, her objective was far more worldly in nature, to enrich herself by manipulating a vulnerable man whose buttons she knew how to press,” Judge Codd continued.

She described Paget as “an old-fashioned confidence trickster” and added that the offence represented a breach of trust.

Judge Codd stated that there has been no expression of remorse or attempt to pay back the money but acknowledged that Paget herself had “particular vulnerabilities”. She sentenced Paget to 18 months in prison and suspended the final six months on strict conditions.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/psychic-medium-jailed-for-e10000-deception-1500039.html
Click to expand...

I bet she didn't see that coming.

A “psychic medium” has failed to overturn her conviction for conning a man into giving her €10,000 by telling him his deceased father had told her the victim should hand over the money, or “the devil would take his soul”.

Debbie Paget (56) of Knowth Court, Ballymun, Dublin was convicted by a Dublin Circuit Criminal Court jury last May.

She had pleaded not guilty to dishonestly inducing by deception James Byrne to give her €10,000.

She was also charged with dishonestly inducing by deception Maria Byrne, Mr Byrne’s sister, to give her €200.

After deliberating for a little over four hours, the jury found Paget guilty, by a majority, of the first count and returned a not guilty verdict on the second count. She was jailed for a year by Judge Pauline Codd on July 10 last.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland...10k-fails-to-overturn-conviction-1580592.html
 
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