• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Fred & Rosemary West

GNC said:
I suppose it was a method of dredging up the sordid details for a Sunday night TV audience. Provides a nice person focus for a nasty person story.
Click to expand...

It was a while ago since I saw it but I recall it being a decent piece of drama and, as I said, I thought Dominic West was fantastic.

But the AA role was greatly dramatised.

And whether such things should ever be made into entertainment...who knows...
 
Roger Ebert said you can make a good film (or indeed TV show) about anything, so I don't know if there should be taboos, it's all in the approach.
 
GNC said:
Roger Ebert said you can make a good film (or indeed TV show) about anything, so I don't know if there should be taboos, it's all in the approach.
Click to expand...

Obviously yes you can. By definition.

Whether you should? All down to one's opinion.

I saw the AA thing a while back. Seemed respectful and decent. Not lurid. Suppose you could argue it made Fred West appear oddly and strangely, childishly charming...but then many said that about him for real so...
 
Is the AA thing referencing Alcoholics Anonymous ? .. we've just watched part 1 and 2 of it (not bad) and the 'appropriate adult's' husband had bipolar syndrome .. have I missed something, I didn't spot any alcohol related stuff ? .. it wasn't bad as entertainment though .. is AA appropriate adults ?
 
Swifty said:
Is the AA thing referencing Alcoholics Anonymous ? .. we've just watched part 1 and 2 of it (not bad) and the 'appropriate adult's' husband had bipolar syndrome .. have I missed something, I didn't spot any alcohol related stuff ? .. it wasn't bad as entertainment though .. is AA appropriate adults ?
Click to expand...
Yes, appropriate adults, not Alcs Anon.

I've just watched part 2 of the ITV drama, and it was very good. It hung together as a good story, but without using 'reconstructions' of any of the crimes alleged, or even photos of dead and dismembered bodies. It was all done 'in the best possible taste', so to speak.

I'll research the case and maybe comment again later.
 
rynner2 said:
Yes, appropriate adults, not Alcs Anon.

I've just watched part 2 of the ITV drama, and it was very good. It hung together as a good story, but without using 'reconstructions' of any of the crimes alleged, or even photos of dead and dismembered bodies. It was all done 'in the best possible taste', so to speak.

I'll research the case and maybe comment again later.
Click to expand...
The thing that seemed fake to me was when the officers left her on her own with him in the interview room two or three times after he'd confessed to being a murderer .. and when she first entered the police station via the back door in episode 1, nobody asked her for any ID .. not to mention that woman in charge who just sort of said "Oh .. you must be the appropriate adult, come with me" or words to that affect ..
 
rynner2 said:
Yes, appropriate adults, not Alcs Anon.

I've just watched part 2 of the ITV drama, and it was very good. It hung together as a good story, but without using 'reconstructions' of any of the crimes alleged, or even photos of dead and dismembered bodies. It was all done 'in the best possible taste', so to speak.

I'll research the case and maybe comment again later.
Click to expand...

If you listen to some of the audio of the police interviews, Dominic's Wests "interpretation" is chillingly accurate.
 
From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West#Investigation

The final witnesses to testify at Rose's trial was Fred's appointed appropriate adult, Janet Leach, whom the prosecution had called to testify on 7 November in rebuttal to the tape recordings of Fred's confession which had been played to the court on 3 November and in which he had stressed Rose had "known nothing at all" about any of the murders.[191] Leach testified that through this role, Fred had gradually begun to view her as a confidante, and had confided in her that on the evening prior to his 25 February arrest, he and Rose had formed a pact whereby he would take full responsibility for all the murders, many of which he had privately described to her as being "some of Rose's mistakes". He had further divulged that Rose had indeed murdered Charmaine while he had been incarcerated, and had also murdered Shirley Robinson. Fred had also confided that although he had actually dismembered the victims, Rose had participated in the mutilation and dismemberment of Shirley Robinson, and had personally removed Robinson's unborn child from her womb after her death. In reference to the remaining eight murders for which Rose was charged, Leach testified that Fred had confided Rose had "played a major part" in these murders.[192]

Upon cross examination, Leach did concede to Richard Ferguson she had earlier lied under oath about having sold her story to a national newspaper for £100,000, although she was adamant as to the sincerity of her testimony. While delivering this testimony, Mrs. Leach collapsed, and the trial was adjourned for six days. Nonetheless, she would return to complete her cross examination on 13 November.[193]

This is consistant with the TV programme.
 
We watched both episodes last night and I said "I would not do that job!" so often the Mrs started teasing me .. I agreed and still agree with Janet's oldest son ... why the hell did she keep going back to visit Fred when she had multiple chances of quitting ? was her favourite film Silence Of The Lambs or something ? .. I'd have quit after the first interview.
 
Some people think they can do good in the world and will carry on even if they are being exploited by the individuals they believe they are 'helping' or 'understanding'. West seems to have had a certain charm for women, unimaginable as that seems. I can see how a kind person like Leach would be taken in by him when she really should have run like the wind.

A truly expert manipulator was Myra Hindley, who could talk well-meaning individuals into throwing away their good names and careers with frightening ease. Why not? She had nothing to lose. Wrecking other people's lives was probably an amusing diversion to her.
(Not everyone was taken in by her, of course. When she and others were to be treated to a small buffet and presentation on passing some exams, other prisoners accessed the room beforehand and tipped the tables over and wrecked the room. They were probably mothers.)
 
Coastaljames said:
Dominic West is absolutely cracking in that. As he always is.

I'm an Appropriate Adult though, and procedureally- the thing is a nonsense :D
Click to expand...

Problem is, I can't watch 'The Affair', where Dominic is meant to be this brooding, sexy protagonist - without, every time he has a sex scene, having PTSD back to him playing Fred with an uncanny likeness, and that creepy accent. I just can't take him seriously as 'sexy' anymore - I can't unsee him as the repulsive Fred even when he is talking in an American accent and supposed to be all attractive, like.

ETA: I forgot to say what I was meant to be posting- I was once the witness (ie: victim) in a court case at a magistrate's court where the accused had had an appropriate adult (MH issues). I missed what happened in there as I left after I gave evidence and it ran on into two days (because the accused wanted to be a litigant in person). But a copper who gave evidence rang me with the verdict and told me what happened.

Apparently, copper gave evidence, stood down, and the accused then said he had MH issues so should have ha an appropriate adult present during interview. He had, of course. Magistrates could have called the copper back to clarify but couldn't be arsed. Not guilty - one reason being there ha been no appropriate adult. Even though there had. Those magistrates were crap (glad I don't live in that county) - one slept through most of my evidence.

I know I'm boring but really.
 
Last edited:
escargot said:
Some people think they can do good in the world and will carry on even if they are being exploited by the individuals they believe they are 'helping' or 'understanding'. West seems to have had a certain charm for women, unimaginable as that seems. I can see how a kind person like Leach would be taken in by him when she really should have run like the wind.
Click to expand...
Given the Fred West had an IQ of around 85, which is not remotely clever, any deception might well have to based on some kind of emotional appeal or empathy and certainly he appears to have selected some of his victims this way.
 
Coal said:
Given the Fred West had an IQ of around 85, which is not remotely clever, any deception might well have to based on some kind of emotional appeal or empathy and certainly he appears to have selected some of his victims this way.
Click to expand...
I think he might have been weirdly likeable/charismatic as everything I've ever seen about the case - the coppers in particular come across as strangely enamoured/amused by him. It's very odd.
 
Plenty of apparently unintelligent men can get their own way with women when they want to. They just have to be persistent. The brazen confidence of them is amusing at first until you realise how much danger you're in.
 
^ This

Confidence through overpowerment within his own sphere of influence, reinforced by his severe childhood trauma and obvious resulting psycopathology, enabling him to run pretty much on total instinct. Have crossed paths with these types before, and there's not much they have had in common in terms of behaviour, appearance or level of intelligence, but inevitably the lives of those closest to them are ruined.
escargot said:
The brazen confidence of them is amusing at first until you realise how much danger you're in.
Click to expand...
 
I do wonder about the reliability of IQ tests in cases like this - surely a genuine psychopath, with a high IQ and the ability to 'win over' anyone they come into contact with, would easily be able to manipulate the test results if it suited them. Although, in this case, I can't see any real advantage in Fred continuing to play 'dumb' after his arrest (he'd have known he was never getting out of prison regardless) it may just have been a continued act for his own amusement?
 
RyoHazuki said:
I do wonder about the reliability of IQ tests in cases like this - surely a genuine psychopath, with a high IQ and the ability to 'win over' anyone they come into contact with, would easily be able to manipulate the test results if it suited them. Although, in this case, I can't see any real advantage in Fred continuing to play 'dumb' after his arrest (he'd have known he was never getting out of prison regardless) it may just have been a continued act for his own amusement?
Click to expand...
Think he had some sort of trauma to the head (motorbike accident? I forget) when he was younger, so some of his behaviours would be compulsive, I guess? I think all that psychic woo he started comng out with was because he couldn't face admitting he'd done some it, particularly involving the victims he was emotionally connected to, like the ex girlfriend... And that might well fly for him, intellectually as (a) he was thick and (b) he was literally brain damaged.
 
Ghost In The Machine said:
Think he had some sort of trauma to the head (motorbike accident? I forget) when he was younger, so some of his behaviours would be compulsive, I guess?
Click to expand...
I think I've posted this on another thread, but head trauma in youth seems very common among serial killers (if compared to the general population)
 
It's true that many prolific sex offenders/murderers suffered head trauma in their youth, but so too have plenty of law-abiding citizens. It's not exactly rare. A severe impact with a longish recovery time (like the one Richard Hammond suffered after the Top gear crash) is likely to leave lasting effects but you'll more likely see forgetfulness and lack of concentration than violent impulses.

Not unheard of, sadly, but such a person might be incapable of the complex planning and preparation necessary for a career of murder. They'd be more likely to get angry with a carer and assault them.

True, Fred West had head injuries from a motorbike accident, but he'd also been brought up in a household where sex and brutality were part of family life. It may be that his inhibitions were loosened a little, who knows? But he kept his cunning and his capacity for methodical preparation and practice. Doesn't sound brain-damaged to me.
 
My old flatmate suffered a bike related head injury as a youth that went on to him being epileptic .. he's a gentle soul though and more popular than Ferris Bueller. He hasn't killed anyone and is hardly ever angry and absolutely never aggressive .. just sayin'
 
escargot said:
It's true that many prolific sex offenders/murderers suffered head trauma in their youth, but so too have plenty of law-abiding citizens. It's not exactly rare. A severe impact with a longish recovery time (like the one Richard Hammond suffered after the Top gear crash) is likely to leave lasting effects but you'll more likely see forgetfulness and lack of concentration than violent impulses.

Not unheard of, sadly, but such a person might be incapable of the complex planning and preparation necessary for a career of murder. They'd be more likely to get angry with a carer and assault them.

True, Fred West had head injuries from a motorbike accident, but he'd also been brought up in a household where sex and brutality were part of family life. It may be that his inhibitions were loosened a little, who knows? But he kept his cunning and his capacity for methodical preparation and practice. Doesn't sound brain-damaged to me.
Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. There's summat else going on with these people, that is there from the start. Also, no-one to this day really knows precisely how did what, out of the two, and Rose no doubt had no accident in earlier life, to add to some already present psychopathy. Maybe these things are so rare because a number of elements come together - and also the folie a deux thing, in addition that seems to accelerate everything?
 
It's one of those Murphy's Law things that two damaged people, one of whom had already murdered, should come together like that, and also carry on undetected for so long.

I suspect Fred at least had killed more than we know about. No-one's ever found his collection of fingers and the like. Christie would be similar - in his case his souvenirs were found and indicated two other murders that are unknown.

Whether Fred's IQ was large or not, he was no fool.
 
Cochise said:
It's one of those Murphy's Law things that two damaged people, one of whom had already murdered, should come together like that, and also carry on undetected for so long.

I suspect Fred at least had killed more than we know about. No-one's ever found his collection of fingers and the like. Christie would be similar - in his case his souvenirs were found and indicated two other murders that are unknown.

Whether Fred's IQ was large or not, he was no fool.
Click to expand...

Cunning is something which does not require a high level of intelligence.
 
Cochise said:
It's one of those Murphy's Law things that two damaged people, one of whom had already murdered, should come together like that, and also carry on undetected for so long.

I suspect Fred at least had killed more than we know about. No-one's ever found his collection of fingers and the like. Christie would be similar - in his case his souvenirs were found and indicated two other murders that are unknown.

Whether Fred's IQ was large or not, he was no fool.
Click to expand...

Totally. I think their count is considerably higher. Although I'm assuming Dr Shipman has the record?

Yes, access to and availability of all those bombed, then bombed out houses post War, means Christie's haul could be way, way higher than anyone can ever know as it was possible he stowed a few in such places when he was an emergency policeman during the war...

I'm researching a book at the mo that contains a chapter or two on 18thC/19thC murders and it is intriguing how many, in the days of execution, confessed a bonus and previously totally unsuspected murder, in the few hours before they were executed. Far too many of them are the other way though - they are still professing innocence of the crime for which they are about to be hung, right up to the last moment. I'd guess a large proportion of them were really innocent.
 
escargot said:
True, Fred West had head injuries from a motorbike accident, but he'd also been brought up in a household where sex and brutality were part of family life. It may be that his inhibitions were loosened a little, who knows? But he kept his cunning and his capacity for methodical preparation and practice. Doesn't sound brain-damaged to me.
Click to expand...
I think i've read that both head trauma and extreme childhood abuse can play a role in the function of the orbital cortex, a part of the brain which controls moral decision making: http://www.personal.psu.edu/afr3/bl...ainty-and-controversy-movable-type-pro-2.html
 
ramonmercado said:
Cunning is something which does not require a high level of intelligence.
Click to expand...

Yes. The landlords of the flat next door to mine are that mix of cunning and thick as mince, sly and stupid; they are probably the only people I know who I truly and actively hate. My dad used to call such intelligence 'money-clever,' or 'money-canny'. He'd been brought up on a farm in a rural community and I think the phrase was a common one back then - used to describe people whose intelligence only ever surfaced in the pursuit of their own appetites.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top