Free Will Vs Destiny?

Jim

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#32
There is no absolute scientific or logical answer here. This could go either way (choice vs. destiny) and is way beyond our current understanding. Do I believe that forces exist beyond our current understanding, hey I'm on this forum, "speaks for itself". The soul - or perhaps call it metal-physical consciousness is undefined. Chemical - electrical responses between neurons yes, more well?
A very esoteric topic.
 

Anonny

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#33
I personally believe, for my own reasons private to me, that at least parts of our future are preset. I've had a number of premontions. I also have looked back on situations and saw that they weren't coincidence at all. I do believe in fate but understand why it's laughed at because it's taken overboard like destiny is.

An example of this for instance sake althought this may not be a great example, I'm married and things aren't going great between me and my other half. They're being distant with me and not themselves after a fantastic many years of marriage, I can't think why. They then tell me they're going to be busy working overtime the next few nights and a couple of days later we bump into other half's friend. Other half trips up by saying how they haven't done overtime in a long while and how they don't miss it, I think nothing of it at the time but then I then realise this a little further on and confront other half who then stutters and makes up a crap excuse. Shortly after they say they are unhappy and we subsequently divorce. If I for some reason wasn't there that day with other half I may never have gotten the answers I wish, or still been in the dark about what really was going on behind my back. Many people on here must have been in the right place at the right time at one point and had a significant event happen from it, such as meeting a good friend or partner, even seeking the truth like I.

People have mentioned death in this thread. I believe our deaths are set and there is no avoiding it. When a drink driver kills someone's friend, it's very unfortunate that the person passes but for the friend, maybe they were taking life for granted or were a little reckless themselves and although their friend passing was tragic, it bettered them in the grand scheme of things and helped them to grow as a person and make the most of life?


I made a thread on law of attraction and I frankly think that that's an even more ridiculous belief for reasons already explained on there. I can see why people believe in free will because we can want to do something but at the last moment often change our mind, but were we destined to change our minds anyway? It's a very hard topic with fair points on both free will and destiny.

I believe if something is meant for you it won't pass you by and I try to live my life knowing what will be will be. But, certainly, I've been witness to lots of experiences happen that were definitely no 'accident'.
 

INT21

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#34
People have mentioned death in this thread. I believe our deaths are set and there is no avoiding it. When a drink driver kills someone's friend, it's very unfortunate that the person passes but for the friend, maybe they were taking life for granted or were a little reckless themselves and although their friend passing was tragic, it bettered them in the grand scheme of things and helped them to grow as a person and make the most of life?


.
You appear to be suggesting that the deceased deserved to die ?
 

INT21

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#35
In your second paragraph, when you say 'they', do you really mean 'she' ?

Or 'he' as I don't know if you are male or female.
 

EnolaGaia

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#38
But not everyone deserves to die long before their three score and ten.
On the other hand ... No one automatically holds any license to live as long as the median lifespan. If there's a contract for life, the one clause I'm absolutely certain it contains is: "No warranties - express or implied."

In particular ... No one is prevented, much less excused, from facilitating their own final destiny via poor life choices or bad situational decisions.

If you're so wrapped up in Facebook on your smartphone that you blunder out into traffic and become street pizza:

- Were you destined all along to be an oblivious idiot?
Or
- Was your oblivious idiocy an exercise of your free will?

The outcome is one and the same. The only point at issue in the destiny / free will debate is who's to blame or credit for the end result.
 

INT21

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#40
it bettered them in the grand schem
So if we were to remove all the people who are an impediment to the rest of us having a reasonable trauma free life it would really be for the better good ?
 

AlchoPwn

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#41
So if we were to remove all the people who are an impediment to the rest of us having a reasonable trauma free life it would really be for the better good ?
Stalin favored killing everybody he could, as then nobody had anything to complain about. Stalin died in bed surrounded by people who were deathly afraid of him, but mainly he died because he had all the decent doctors in Moscow sent to gulags. The choices we make create our Karma.
 

INT21

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#42
Stalin clearly didn't think it through.

I suspect that the situation you are born into greatly influences your future prospects.

One could say that if you have free will then you can get out of a bad start. But that depends upon a number of things. One being that you actually recognise that you are in a bad situation in the first place. And also that the opportunity to get out presents itself.
The other thing is that if everyone around you conforms to a given lifestyle then you may not see anything unusual about it even though it may be quite bad; it is all you have known.

So the last option could be described as the destiny option.

The first being free will.

INT21.
 

AlchoPwn

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#43
Stalin clearly didn't think it through. I suspect that the situation you are born into greatly influences your future prospects. One could say that if you have free will then you can get out of a bad start. But that depends upon a number of things. One being that you actually recognise that you are in a bad situation in the first place. And also that the opportunity to get out presents itself. The other thing is that if everyone around you conforms to a given lifestyle then you may not see anything unusual about it even though it may be quite bad; it is all you have known. So the last option could be described as the destiny option. The first being free will. INT21.
All valid points INT21, I agree. We don't seem to choose our parents (tho some Bardo adherents say otherwise), and while we appear to have free will, our choices are often flavored by our assumptions about the world and our start conditions. The thing about Free Will vs Destiny/Fate is that it can be argued quite persuasively from either direction, depending on your rhetorical inclination. I would say that most people like predictability in their lives as it provides them with a sense of control, but is that conducive to free will, or does it create our fate? I don't think many of us are sufficiently self-aware to really be capable of realizing how free we can be versus how confined. I think we live something of a synthesis of the two, and I worry that all too often an algorithm might well be able to predict our behavior.
 

PeteS

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#44
I worry that all too often an algorithm might well be able to predict our behavior.
Oh the time to worry about this was years ago, too late now, it's already here in many respects. The sole basis for the successful application for an interview for many jobs in the UK is the completion of an online psychological profile, which is clearly designed to predict behaviour. Most if not all the questions are wholly unrelated to the actual job you are applying for. A young man I know was turned down for an interview for stacking shelves in a low end supermarket after completing one such "profile".
 

AlchoPwn

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#46
Tried it a few times, answer was always a resounding silence.
The silence was resounding? Excellent result! I have never managed to get anything other than a mundane silence punctuated by chirping crickets. Color me impressed by your efforts!
 
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Mikefule

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#47
Oh the time to worry about this was years ago, too late now, it's already here in many respects. The sole basis for the successful application for an interview for many jobs in the UK is the completion of an online psychological profile, which is clearly designed to predict behaviour. Most if not all the questions are wholly unrelated to the actual job you are applying for. A young man I know was turned down for an interview for stacking shelves in a low end supermarket after completing one such "profile".
Although to be fair, no employer owes every suitable applicant an interview.

Especially in the case of a fairly menial job, the employer's primary concern is to fill the vacancy with someone who will "not be unsuitable". If they get 200 applicants and shortlist 10, it doesn't mean that all of the other 190 were excluded for any particular reason — only that 10 was the limit to the number of interviews the employer was prepared to conduct, and they had selected 10 candidates who looked likely to be good enough.

That said, some of those psychological profiles are remarkably accurate, and quite sneaky. They often work by asking you to choose one good characteristic from a list of four good characteristics, or one bad characteristic from a list of four bad ones.

The same characteristics pop up in several different lists, and as there are no right or wrong answers, it is very hard for the person being profiled to manipulate their answers.

Made up example:
  1. Which word describes you best? Honest, diligent, trustworthy, creative
  2. Which word describes you best? Industrious, honest, imaginative, reliable
  3. Which word describes you best? Creative, intelligent, honest, trustworthy
  4. Which word describes you least well? Lazy, dishonest, unreliable, untrustworthy
  5. And so on.
Over a series of 100 questions like this, you are going to tend to choose words that are associated with one characteristic, such as honesty or reliability. Indeed, if you try to manipulate it, it will probably be obvious that you have done so because you will inevitably have introduced inconsistencies.

The problem is, without these consistent tests, employers would have to rely on the intuition and judgement of their many departmental managers, every single one of whom assumes that they are a better than average judge of character.
 
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PeteS

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#48
Although to be fair, no employer owes every suitable applicant an interview.

Especially in the case of a fairly menial job, the employer's primary concern is to fill the vacancy with someone who will "not be unsuitable". If they get 200 applicants and shortlist 10, it doesn't mean that all of the other 190 were excluded for any particular reason — only that 10 was the limit to the number of interviews the employer was prepared to conduct, and they had selected 10 candidates who looked likely to be good enough.

That said, some of those psychological profiles are remarkably accurate, and quite sneaky. They often work by asking you to choose one good characteristic from a list of four good characteristics, or one bad characteristic from a list of four bad ones.

The same characteristics pop up in several different lists, and as there are no right or wrong answers, it is very hard for the person being profiled to manipulate their answers.

Made up example:
  1. Which word describes you best? Honest, diligent, trustworthy, creative
  2. Which word describes you best? Industrious, honest, imaginative, reliable
  3. Which word describes you best? Creative, intelligent, honest, trustworthy
  4. Which word describes you least well? Lazy, dishonest, unreliable, untrustworthy
  5. And so on.
Over a series of 100 questions like this, you are going to tend to choose words that are associated with one characteristic, such as honesty or reliability. Indeed, if you try to manipulate it, it will probably be obvious that you have done so because you will inevitably have introduced inconsistencies.

The problem is, without these consistent tests, employers would have to rely on the intuition and judgement of their many departmental managers, every single one of whom assumes that they are a better than average judge of character.
I never met a departmental manager who could tell the difference between a good employee and a bad one. Having said that I have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the likes of a purported "scientific" computerised method of establishing whether someone is suitable for a particular job or not. The "tests" are inevitably slanted by the composer of the questions.
 

EnolaGaia

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#49
Oh the time to worry about this was years ago, too late now, it's already here in many respects. The sole basis for the successful application for an interview for many jobs in the UK is the completion of an online psychological profile, which is clearly designed to predict behaviour. Most if not all the questions are wholly unrelated to the actual job you are applying for. A young man I know was turned down for an interview for stacking shelves in a low end supermarket after completing one such "profile".
(Emphasis Added)

There's something of a misconception implied in the phrasing highlighted above ...

Psychological profiling doesn't (and can't) provide any reliable clues to how a candidate will behave. Profiling can only provide clues to possible predilections, preferences, or relative foci representative of the candidate's very general attitude(s) or tendencies with respect to whichever factors or dimensions the test battery is designed to address.

It remains to the reviewer / evaluator (e.g. a manager seeking a new employee) to connect the dots between the profiling results and whatever criteria he / she believes to be critical to selection and subsequent performance. I agree that most front-line operations managers are ill-equipped to connect such dots above and beyond evaluating particular factors that may be critical to the given job description.

In any case, there's no universal approach to how one maps results from the profile to the prospective job functions. For example, a candidate's marked propensity for attention to fine-grained details might be taken as a positive feature for some jobs and a potential problem for others.
 

PeteS

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#50
(Emphasis Added)

There's something of a misconception implied in the phrasing highlighted above ...

Psychological profiling doesn't (and can't) provide any reliable clues to how a candidate will behave. Profiling can only provide clues to possible predilections, preferences, or relative foci representative of the candidate's very general attitude(s) or tendencies with respect to whichever factors or dimensions the test battery is designed to address.

It remains to the reviewer / evaluator (e.g. a manager seeking a new employee) to connect the dots between the profiling results and whatever criteria he / she believes to be critical to selection and subsequent performance. I agree that most front-line operations managers are ill-equipped to connect such dots above and beyond evaluating particular factors that may be critical to the given job description.

In any case, there's no universal approach to how one maps results from the profile to the prospective job functions. For example, a candidate's marked propensity for attention to fine-grained details might be taken as a positive feature for some jobs and a potential problem for others.
Yes possibly I chose the wrong word there. Perhaps "predict characteristics" might be better. But I'm sure that it's not a huge leap from identifying characteristics to predicting, albeit not necessarily with 100% accuracy, how someone will behave in certain circumstances. I know a psychological profiler and I'll ask her about this.
 

Anonny

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#51
So if we were to remove all the people who are an impediment to the rest of us having a reasonable trauma free life it would really be for the better good ?
Sorry, I wasn't meaning that they deserved to die. I meant that we all have a time when we have to go of course, and I personally feel that that time is set for us. Although, a posting by LizardKing who almost died with appendicitis has made me a little more on the fence about that area.
 

INT21

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#52
Maybe I should add that I actually did die (flat lined) during a medical procedure.

Fortunately not for long before the medics returned me to the land of the living.

INT21.
 

escargot

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#53
Maybe I should add that I actually did die (flat lined) during a medical procedure.

Fortunately not for long before the medics returned me to the land of the living.

INT21.
How did that go? Did you know at the time how badly things were going or did you find out afterwards? When you were revived, did you have a memory of the event or not? etc
 

Analogue Boy

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#54
Ok. Here’s a thing. From being really little, possibly about 3 or 4 I retained a dream/memory where I was being shown the whole of Earth from space. I felt a kindly hand on my shoulder and everywhere on the planet there were points of light appearing. The voice asked, ‘which one would you like?’ I chose a couple and was then shown everything that would happen to that life. Eventually I chose this point.
 

INT21

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#55
How did that go? Did you know at the time how badly things were going or did you find out afterwards? When you were revived, did you have a memory of the event or not? etc

I had a very bad reaction to some anesthetic solution that was used to freeze one of my eyes while the medics dug out a piece of steel grinding that had welded itself to an eyeball (yes, I was wearing safety goggles).

I remember the digging out thingy approaching my eye. Next thing there was a crash crew around me.

I was gone for about ten minutes.

Just remember a greyness.

The long term effects were a loss of some of my higher mental faculties. I have great trouble remembering guitar chords. And although I was never a brilliant mathematician, I seem to have lost some of the calculation abilities I did have.

Who knows what else has gone. But this was about fifty years ago.

I was able to drive home after a few minutes rest. One eye patched over. Still had to go to an eye specialist in Bradford to have the metal removed. Fortunately it was a success.

INT21.
 

AlchoPwn

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#56
I had a very bad reaction to some anesthetic solution that was used to freeze one of my eyes while the medics dug out a piece of steel grinding that had welded itself to an eyeball (yes, I was wearing safety goggles). I remember the digging out thingy approaching my eye. Next thing there was a crash crew around me. I was gone for about ten minutes. Just remember a greyness. The long term effects were a loss of some of my higher mental faculties. I have great trouble remembering guitar chords. And although I was never a brilliant mathematician, I seem to have lost some of the calculation abilities I did have. Who knows what else has gone. But this was about fifty years ago. I was able to drive home after a few minutes rest. One eye patched over. Still had to go to an eye specialist in Bradford to have the metal removed. Fortunately it was a success. INT21.
I know it was a long time ago INT21, but I still think it is unfair this sort of thing happens at all. Glad you are still with us. Just don't post any photos from the event. I had a gf who worked industrial accidents for an insurance company who showed me photos. I'm still traumatized 19 years later.
 

INT21

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#57
No worries. After all this time I still don't like to think about it.

I was talking to my grandson about similar things a couple of days ago. He is seventeen and has just started out in the building trade. He mention that hardly any of the workers use safety goggles, even when using Stihl saws.

I emphasized that he MUST always wear them. Take no notice of anyone who tells you there is no need. You only have the one set of eyes.
 

Mythopoeika

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#58
No worries. After all this time I still don't like to think about it.

I was talking to my grandson about similar things a couple of days ago. He is seventeen and has just started out in the building trade. He mention that hardly any of the workers use safety goggles, even when using Stihl saws.

I emphasized that he MUST always wear them. Take no notice of anyone who tells you there is no need. You only have the one set of eyes.
I learned all about safety from my Dad, who had been a craft, design and technology teacher (i.e., woodwork and metalwork). He'd seen a lot of hairy stuff when he was an apprentice back in the late 1940s. He'd volunteered to assist ROSPA with setting up workshops in the schools in Surrey, so during the 60s and 70s he was fairly influential in determining health and safety in those schools.
Nevertheless, he did have an accident one day when he got a splinter of steel in his eye. Fortunately for him, it was extracted and he had no problems afterwards.
He was always telling me to wear goggles, but like an eejit I didn't always heed his advice. One day, I was making a glass terrarium and a drop of solder bounced off the glass and directly at my eye. Thankfully, it hit my glasses and bounced off. That brought it home to me that my Dad's advice should not be ignored.
 
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