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Fundamentalist Ufology: 'Aliens' Are Demons

From a magickal/occult point of view, there is a big hole in this argument. For a demon/daimon to manifest there has to be certain criteria involved. To suggest that a UFO landing is a manifestation of ..say the Goetia or the Daimonos is flawed. The daimonos would only manifest in the company of the summoner. It would not reveal itself to a wide number of witnesses.
 
I agree that the UFO manifestations are deceptive/deceitful. Too often, the official disinformation is stated as the biggest problem preventing when one comes to study them. But it pales as compared to the one originating from the phenomenon itself, confusing issues and discrediting its own existence. It manifests via a great number of ways. It mimics some aspects of science-fiction, for example, but some only. The psycho-social hypothesis can't explain the abduction phenomenon. But superficially, it could look like it was psycho-social in origin. Superficially only, but it is enough to prevent many people to dig further. Those people felling ill-at-ease with the topic, it fits their needs. And there are the military abuctions, creatures peering at windows, faerie-like entities,

Certainly, our brain filters what he sees, and tends to shape it according to cultural expectations. But I don't think it can give a complete explanation of complex and plain perceptions. We must be very careful when dealing with entities we know nothing of, with agendas we couldn't guess at. We could mistake deception with something else entirely. But the entities seem to know very well of the human psychology; suggesting that they know of our reactions. I think that the deception is more probably intended.

L-double:
About prophecies, they are commonly associated with a number of apparitions: supposedly religious, extraterrestrial, sometimes even Bigfoot or hauntings. I remember about a case of ghost hauntings in Souvigny. As a witness was speaking with the ghost of a monk, the spectre suddenly shouted prochecies of incoming doom and great cataclysms for all humanity! It didn't make any sense, but it closely paralleled similar prochecies by the BVM or blonde Venusians.
But any approach from an oriented perspective is problematic. For example, in a Christian way, how can you say which is divine from which is demonic? One time, I had a discussion with fundamentalist Christians. I told them: it is easy to say that the manifestations you don't accept are demonic. But following your own logic, how can you say that your own Bible is not demonic in origin? After all, it is full of similar manifestations. For example, a message given by a "superior being" in a fiery bush. The Bible would be a perfect tool to fool humanity. Of course, as they couldn't cope with their own logic, they quickly ended the discussion. You fell in the classic trap to shoehorn a phenomenon which is ahead of us in one of our preconceptions. It can mimick them, that means it is beyond them. Somebody's "angelic" manifestation is someone else's "demon".
 
Analis said:
But any approach from an oriented perspective is problematic. For example, in a Christian way, how can you say which is divine from which is demonic? One time, I had a discussion with fundamentalist Christians. I told them: it is easy to say that the manifestations you don't accept are demonic. But following your own logic, how can you say that your own Bible is not demonic in origin? After all, it is full of similar manifestations. For example, a message given by a "superior being" in a fiery bush. The Bible would be a perfect tool to fool humanity. Of course, as they couldn't cope with their own logic, they quickly ended the discussion. You fell in the classic trap to shoehorn a phenomenon which is ahead of us in one of our preconceptions. It can mimick them, that means it is beyond them. Somebody's "angelic" manifestation is someone else's "demon".

Indeed. Nicely put, Analis.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Isn't it more likely that what people consider to be 'demonic manifestation' is caused by aliens or interdimensional travellers - i.e. the other way round?

But what if all evil enties AREN'T merely misperceived foreigners?
 
No i am not a Christian although i am familiar with the Bible and the ethos of most Religous concepts...
The Books of the Solomanic cycle are intriguing and i have spent much time in consideration of there place if any in anomalous phenomenom or Ufology ... i understand that the daimons of the greater/lesser keys of solomon and simular texts are the hierarchy of the spirit world.. ie the princes,dukes and kings of hell ... when specifically summoned by ritual magick they appear as named or called... i feel this is perhaps some thing seperate to a generalised demonic manifestation...it seems the real motive or intent behind these encounters is to confuse,decieve and manipulate ... to what purpose we can only speculate .. where as these goetic entities are brought into being by the will of magius to serve and share knowledge etc ....

Analis...interesting points indeed ....
 
I suspect that it's the height of naivete to believe that we can ever understand the true nature of the unseen world that occasionally interacts with our own.

The trouble with magical thinking is that it tends to depict the Otherworld as a kind of infernal Civil Service - with neatly ordered ranks of demons or angels each fulfilling their own set tasks and obligingly popping out of the ether for you provided that you fill out the right forms or chant the right incantations.

I suspect that the Otherworld interacts with our own in much the same way that we interact with the world of wild animals - sometimes by design, sometimes by accident, and sometimes simply for their own passing amusement.

If you choose to build a rigid belief system around such chance encounters, then that reveals more about you than it does about 'them'.

Should a mysterious entity pop out of thin air and start speaking apparent nonsense to you, you can call it an alien or a demon - or you can call it Fred for that matter - but whatever you call it is nothing more a label - not what the thing actually is.

I doubt we will ever truly understand what they are any more than Meerkats could ever truly understand what we are.
 
graylien said:
I suspect that it's the height of naivete to believe that we can ever understand the true nature of the unseen world that occasionally interacts with our own.

I agree completely and apply this to a lot of things.
 
I tend to agree with you G.a.... i think that the Goetia and simular texts are a typical medieval attempt at identifying and classifying the unseen world or hidden using a system that we can understand...
But i must point out this was not the purpose or content of my original post. Im am simply trying to guess at the purpose and origin of the wide range of UFO/AAP based experience.. and i suspect your not far of the mark...we will most likely never truly, fully understand the nature of these sometimes frightning sometimes rediculous usually bizzare encounters ....but the more i read and the more time i spend thinking the more it strikes me that the purpose or effect is confusion and manipulation of belief systems or huge, drastic changes in personality .. what this means i am not sure but i can not ignore the whisper in the dark that tells me there is far more to this phenomenon than flying saucers and there occupants but a deception of mass proportions that in some way is slowly shifting the conciousness and perception of mankind for something far more important than a mere mortal existence... .... ITERNITY ....
 
Certainly the opinion polls taken over the last 50 years seem to show that belief in the extraterrestrial origin of UFOs is increasing. I'm not sure how significant this is though.

How many of those people surveyed actually 'believe' in aliens with the same certainty that they believe that the Earth orbits the Sun or that ice is colder than steam? Very few, I'd suspect. And within those who do believe absolutely , you'd find a pretty wide spread of opinion - from those who think that aliens are here to enslave us to those who think that they should be welcomed as saviours.

If the 'aliens' really are trying to create a coherent and widespead belief system, then they aren't doing a very good job.

As far as the personality changes experienced by individuals who actually encounter 'aliens' is concerned, I think this is an area which definitely needs more research. I think there's quite an interesting book waiting to be written about that very subject.
 
I agree G.a.... i am not suggesting that ' they ' are presenting a wide spread consistent belief system but quite simply making it very difficult to try and grasp anything substantial or that makes any kind of real sense but perhaps as previosly mentioned by your good self we are attempting to understand something that is incomprehensible to the human perception...... who know's ? not me for one ...
 
It all depends on how one defines demonic and if one uses a religious paradigm as several people mentioned above.
I don't buy into religious belief as an actual truth model and see all religions as models of reality, so for me the classifications of what these things (ufos, aliens, etc) are is merely a way for us to talk about them.
I see them as alternate forms of life or manifestations of our own consciousness interacting with the very stuff of reality similar to Keel's 'ultraterrestrials' ,Harpur's 'daimons' ,or even Jung's 'archetypes'.
Of course it's also possible that some may be actual space travelers who get lost in the other phenomena that are happening around us.

Personally I have always approached this from the perspective of Dr Vallee, John Keel, Patrick Harpur and Greg Little where these phenomena are more akin to entities that are connected to our own consciousness somehow but neither from outer space nor demonic in the trad Christian sense.
 
Analis said:
But any approach from an oriented perspective is problematic. For example, in a Christian way, how can you say which is divine from which is demonic? One time, I had a discussion with fundamentalist Christians. I told them: it is easy to say that the manifestations you don't accept are demonic. But following your own logic, how can you say that your own Bible is not demonic in origin? After all, it is full of similar manifestations. For example, a message given by a "superior being" in a fiery bush. The Bible would be a perfect tool to fool humanity. Of course, as they couldn't cope with their own logic, they quickly ended the discussion. You fell in the classic trap to shoehorn a phenomenon which is ahead of us in one of our preconceptions. It can mimick them, that means it is beyond them. Somebody's "angelic" manifestation is someone else's "demon".

The simple way to answer your query (using the bible/Chistian beliefs) would be that in the instances in the bible where something manifests itself, it usually says stuff like 'fear not, i i come from the lord they god', or something similar. It doesn't just fly about the sky in a triangular display, with flashing lights, letting people wonder what it is, it always has a specific purpose and makes it known, clearly, to the person/people involved.

Personally, i think an early reply hit the nail on the head, the interpretation of weird things in the sky, depends on your own beliefs and people who saw them explained them within their belief system. Bit like if you look at a fire for long enough, you start to see patterns and shapes.
 
I suspect that to describe all UFOnauts as "demonic" is just as silly and as counter-productive as claiming that none are.

Much the same thing likely holds true for the (non-fraudulent) manifestations of the seance chamber.
 
I'm guessing that by "demonic", the OP was speaking of Christianity's idea of demons. I am also guessing that by confusing/changing people you mean that the demons' goal is to get these people away from God and on the road to condemnation.

The main problem I have with the idea of all (or even most) UFOs being demonic in nature is that, well, I can't really see what the point would be. UFOs have been appearing for thousands of years- BEFORE Christianity existed, in places that had never heard of Christianity, and (speaking of modern times especially) to places/people that choose to practise other religions... or no religion at all.

What I am trying to say is, what would be the demons' point? According to my understanding of Hell-believing Christianity, most of these people would already be doomed to burn anyway... so why bother? Shouldn't the demons go after the Christian faithful? Unless there are multiple paths to God (an idea which most Christians do not at all accept), the demons would be wasting their time with humans who are already on the 'wrong' road.

Not only that, but I've come across quite a few people who've turned devoutly religious after a UFO experience, out of fear or confusion. Yet others view them as Heaven-sent and turn to religion in joy (or if they already are into it, their faith is strengthened). For UFOs to be evil and have this effect on people is... silly.

I must agree with OldTimeRadio's post here- most likely some are bad, most likely some are not. But I definitely think the idea of all UFOs being demonic doesn't make much sense.
 
PinkTaffy said:
UFOs have been appearing for thousands of years- BEFORE Christianity existed, in places that had never heard of Christianity, and (speaking of modern times especially) to places/people that choose to practise other religions... or no religion at all.

But demons weren't the invention of Christianity, as a search through the ancient Sumerian/Babylonian religions (let alone the Jewish) will clearly demonstrate. And all or almost all non-Judaeo-Christian world religions seem to be fully aware of what demons are.
 
OldTimeRadio said:
PinkTaffy said:
UFOs have been appearing for thousands of years- BEFORE Christianity existed, in places that had never heard of Christianity, and (speaking of modern times especially) to places/people that choose to practise other religions... or no religion at all.

But demons weren't the invention of Christianity, as a search through the ancient Sumerian/Babylonian religions (let alone the Jewish) will clearly demonstrate. And all or almost all non-Judaeo-Christian world religions seem to be fully aware of what demons are.

Ah...but what our ancestors and other ancients called 'demons' (from the Greek word 'daimon' which referred to personal spirits that could be both helpful and troublesome) is just our human semantics, prejudices, and paradigms and may not be a valid attempt to classify entites that do not exist in the same frame of reference as we do. Just because we call them demons does not mean they are evil nor that they have anything to do with our religious beliefs per se. It may be that we have lumped these beings (who may exist in some manner with us but on a different level) into our own belief systems because we are ignorant of what they really are and how we relate to them. They may simply be truly 'alien' lifeforms that don't co-exist well with humans but not from some human idea of hell, etc.
 
My personal view us that there exist in the Universe discorporeal intelligences which are wholly malignant towards Humanity - and possibly towards all life as we know it. If that view is correct (I certainly cannot prove it to anybody's satisfaction other than my own, and sometimes I'm not entirely convinced myself), it would not seem to matter all that much whether we call such entities "demons" or "crystal doughnuts."
 
OldTimeRadio said:
My personal view us that there exist in the Universe discorporeal intelligences which are wholly malignant towards Humanity - and possibly towards all life as we know it. If that view is correct (I certainly cannot prove it to anybody's satisfaction other than my own, and sometimes I'm not entirely convinced myself), it would not seem to matter all that much whether we call such entities "demons" or "crystal doughnuts."

On what do you base your belief in these malignant entities? Is this from a religious belief system you have 'faith' in like Christianity or just from your personal reading and thinking about metaphysical matters over the years?
What we call them is certainly irrelevant to the entities. ;)
 
dr_wu said:
On what do you base your belief in these malignant entities? Is this from a religious belief system you have 'faith' in like Christianity or just from your personal reading and thinking about metaphysical matters over the years?

Both.
 
OldTimeRadio said:
PinkTaffy said:
UFOs have been appearing for thousands of years- BEFORE Christianity existed, in places that had never heard of Christianity, and (speaking of modern times especially) to places/people that choose to practise other religions... or no religion at all.

But demons weren't the invention of Christianity, as a search through the ancient Sumerian/Babylonian religions (let alone the Jewish) will clearly demonstrate. And all or almost all non-Judaeo-Christian world religions seem to be fully aware of what demons are.


I never said demons were an invention of Christianity, thanks very much. However, most people who think of UFOs as demonic do so from a Christian perspective. Go ahead and do a Google search for "demon UFO", and I bet most of the websites you find will be Christian (generally, fundamentalist).

Anyway, even with removing a Christian element, it doesn't make much a difference. The OP meant demons as in bad/evil entities... and if that's what UFOs are, the demons are doing a poor job of hurting us. As I said in my last post, quite a few contactees turn to religion, others are enlightened, and still others view the experience as a positive religious one from the get-go. So it STILL doesn't make sense.
 
I never said demons were an invention of Christianity, thanks very much. However, most people who think of UFOs as demonic do so from a Christian perspective. Go ahead and do a Google search for "demon UFO", and I bet most of the websites you find will be Christian (generally, fundamentalist).
I'm not really sure what difference that makes though. Of course a demon is not going to turn anyone from Christianity before Christianity existed but if the demons themselves existed, why not fly about making a nuisance of themselves?

PinkTaffy said:
Anyway, even with removing a Christian element, it doesn't make much a difference. The OP meant demons as in bad/evil entities... and if that's what UFOs are, the demons are doing a poor job of hurting us. As I said in my last post, quite a few contactees turn to religion, others are enlightened, and still others view the experience as a positive religious one from the get-go. So it STILL doesn't make sense.
Yes it does. It would simply mean that the demons have failed and why not? Do you think they should they be more powerful than God?
 
min_bannister, I was actually replying to OldTimeRadio as to the reason I brought up Christianity in my first post. It was not actually central to my argument about why I don't believe UFOs are demonic. As I said, it doesn't matter what religion you are looking at it from, UFOs=evil just does not make good sense to me.

Quite a few people every year see UFOs. A good percentage of these people walk away from the experience feeling BETTER about life and their faith/beliefs than before (I am one of these people- did a bunch of pleasant soul searching and soon after became a Christian... after growing up in an atheist household). This doesn't just mean that the 'demons' 'failed'- it means that they accomplished the exact opposite of what they supposedly were attempting. There's a big difference between not effecting someone, and turning someone onto God who previously wouldn't have been interested. I fully belive in "knowing a tree by its fruits".

I frankly find it absurd to think of UFOs as "demon-powered". It's not unusual for some people to be upset or confused by something we currently lack the technology to understand... it's happened throught the history of humanity. Hence just because SOME (or even most, should it be true) contactees are distressed by UFOs doesn't mean that all UFOs are evil in nature.
 
Old Time Radio: "My personnal view is that there exist in the Universe discorporeal intelligences which are wholly malignant towards humanity - and possibly all life as we know it."
Should we adress paranormal issues as good or evil? Explaining things in bipolar things is an easy way, it is helped by our Christian impregnation. I see no evidence of existence of life-hating entities. The behaviour of 'paranormal' entities may be diverse, but they all obey to the same set of rules. And how could we define them 'evil' or 'good'? Is the butcher 'evil'? Maybe a sheep would define him as such, and why would he define him otherwise; but certainly not you. It would be more objective to refer to the effects we suffer from their actions: harmful, beneficial or else. If they act in a seemingly hostile way, some will be tempted to call them evil; it may be a naive definition. If their acts seem benevolent, they would label them good, and this would be equally naive.

The same entitites produce so-called 'good' or 'evil'. Probably according to their needs. There is no evidence that they are divided in two sides. A number of cases involve negative and positive aspects. I read the account of 'Sarah Smith', in Marie Thérèse de BROSSES' book. It was very intriguing. She was harassed for many years by grey dwarves, in a set of very painful experiences. They included some aspects of possession as well as of alien abductions. When she learned to resist them, her tormentors vanished and were replaced with benevolent cosmic entities who learned her supposed secrets of the universe. Those two kinds of apparitions seem to be different shapes of the same phenomenon, each playing its role in a sort of initiatic process.
 
SPIRITS OF DARKNESS
In a cave so deep and wide
Your flying saucers seek to hide;
Sent up through space,
confusion to found.
Your earth is now clothed all around
With spirits of darkness
who travel by night.
But do not be frightened;
pray for their flight.
Veronica Bayside shrine USA Nov 24th 1993

If you want to get rid of a UFO from an area then use christian prayer to pray they will leave,it creates a noise in their minds,this is what Jesus & Mary said when they appeared at the Bayside shrine between 1970-94.This is because they are not extraterrestrial but supernatural,used by Satan & his cohorts to fool mankind into thinking we were being visited by aliens.For more on this see my other post on here and how he will use this phenomenon after the christian church is RAPTURED.I believe they can also shapeshift to make themselves look alien.
 
Excellent! Another person I can put on ignore.
 
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