Göbekli Tepe: Temples From 10,000 B.C.

[EnolaGaia]

... I don’t go for theories that the Göbekli Tepe site contains any lost secrets.

The biggest significance of the Göbekli Tepe site is it’s age, with the earliest structures dating to ~10.000 BC.

I don't know whether these count as 'lost secrets' per se, but there are two other aspects of Göbekli Tepe that I feel are more significant than the fact of its age:

- The apparent fact this monumental site was erected and maintained by people whose subsistence was still based on hunting and gathering; and ...

- The apparent fact the site was deliberately (re-?)buried, rather than destroyed, in the end.

Further excavations and analyses may change our view of what the site represents, to be sure. However, as it stands now I find it tantalizing evidence that some socio-cultural aspects of 'civilization' pre-date, or were at least gestating, prior to the widespread adoption of agriculture and fixed settlements.

 

[Jim]

I don't know whether these count as 'lost secrets' per se, but there are two other aspects of Göbekli Tepe that I feel are more significant than the fact of its age:

- The apparent fact this monumental site was erected and maintained by people whose subsistence was still based on hunting and gathering; and ...

- The apparent fact the site was deliberately (re-?)buried, rather than destroyed, in the end.

Further excavations and analyses may change our view of what the site represents, to be sure. However, as it stands now I find it tantalizing evidence that some socio-cultural aspects of 'civilization' pre-date, or were at least gestating, prior to the widespread adoption of agriculture and fixed settlements.

When I speak of lost secrets I don't mean to imply that undiscovered discoveries might still be brought to light. Many unanswered questions remain. From what I understand > 90 % of the site has yet to be unearthed. I meant it in the mystical or occult sense (lets not dig to deep, pls excuse the pun).

True no signs of farming or animal husbandry have been found. So we must assume that the structures were constructed by a hunter - gatherer culture (which in itself is amazing). Particularly since such groups aren't expected to gather in the numbers needed to construct such a site.

 

[Shadowsot]

As pertaining specially to the Gobekli Tepe site the exact nature of the religious - ritualistic significance is unknown and only theoretical in nature. What specific sense of significance as you referring too?

I'm sorry, I don't exactly understand the phrasing of your question. My meaning was simply that what we in the modern day look at as seperate areas of thought, religion and practical matters, weren't separated out in history and prehistory. Saying something was ritualistic or religious in use doesn't necessarily mean religious worship like you would see at a modern church for example.
Stonehenge as my example is a site where there ritualistic rituals and practices carried out and also served as a calendar for mapping the seasons.

Could you kindly share the data concerning other similar older sites?

https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com...-distribution-of-sites-with-t-shaped-pillars/
That's a decent resource.
An issue of Actual Archaeology magazine dedicated to Gobekli Tepe brought up earlier semi permanent villages that boasted the t pillars, but most of what I am able to find online is centered on Gobekli Tepe itself.
There are a number of sites that have been identified, as mentioned in the article, that have not been examined for various reasons yet. Due to their smaller size and simpler stone work I would believe they are older than Gobekli.

 

[Shadowsot]

When I speak of lost secrets I don't mean to imply that undiscovered discoveries might still be brought to light. Many unanswered questions remain. From what I understand > 90 % of the site has yet to be unearthed. I meant it in the mystical or occult sense (lets not dig to deep, pls excuse the pun).

True no signs of farming or animal husbandry have been found. So we must assume that the structures were constructed by a hunter - gatherer culture (which in itself is amazing). Particularly since such groups aren't expected to gather in the numbers needed to construct such a site.

It was pointed out on an article about the site that while no signs of domestication or husbandry have been fou d it doesn't mean they weren't happening. Early efforts of domestication don't leave many traces to be found. Though if there were, the success of other areas seem to coincide with the end of the sites use.
There are signs of simple seed spreading, it wouldn't have provided much reliable food. But enough to support the single dwelling that's been found along with hunting.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

It was pointed out on an article about the site that while no signs of domestication or husbandry have been fou d it doesn't mean they weren't happening. Early efforts of domestication don't leave many traces to be found. Though if there were, the success of other areas seem to coincide with the end of the sites use.
There are signs of simple seed spreading, it wouldn't have provided much reliable food. But enough to support the single dwelling that's been found along with hunting.

I thought animal bones (geese, deer, goat) were found at the site?
Many of the animal depictions however are not of animals traditionally associated with husbandry (scorpion, vulture, lizard, fox, big-toothed cat). As several depictions seem to show the animals in aggressive pose, with teeth bared, could they have been intended as a canis canem style warning to stay away?

 

[Shadowsot]

I thought animal bones (geese, deer, goat) were found at the site?

Yeahp. From hunting is the expectation. But it's possible early attempts at domestication could have been carried out. We wouldn't have evidence of it though, there's a delay between the start of domestication and effects we can see showing up.
Of course, at the same time you can look for evidence of side effects of living around or with animals. That's where finding remains would help, but so far none have been found.

Many of the animal depictions however are not of animals traditionally associated with husbandry (scorpion, vulture, lizard, fox, big-toothed cat). As several depictions seem to show the animals in aggressive pose, with teeth bared, could they have been intended as a canis canem style warning to stay away?

Possibly, but it's worthwhile to be hesitant to ascribe what we'd expect to see in terms of meanings on a culture so far removed from ours.
It's the reasonable assumption, but it could also have meaning in terms of hunting or shamanistic type power. Or related to clan imagery and associations. Or something else symbolic.
Some of the motifs invoke elements seen in sky burials still carried out by Zoroastrians, and are in the same general area. But that could be coincidence. It would help explain why we have no remains, but so does simple time and decay.
Not that I'm at all any sort of authority on the site.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

"Possibly, but it's worthwhile to be hesitant to ascribe what we'd expect to see in terms of meanings on a culture so far removed from ours. "

Agreed. EG accused me of being a "hand-waver" following my pictorial earlier post about the "handbag" or something similar appearing in religious artefacts in different cultures and times. I had to look up what was meant by 'hand-waving' . It apparently is a pejorative term for those in academic circles making unproven claims. Well I'm no academic. Just a very interested amateur, who assembled a collection of images I personally found interesting and hoped other members of the forum would do so too. I looked forward to discussion with other forumists and I'm happy to change my opinion when more learned analysis emerges. Similarly, my speculation that the sculptures of animals in aggressive poses may have been warnings to stay away, were just that - speculation and I'm not plugging any particular Däniken/Hancock style agenda here.

 

[EnolaGaia]

When I speak of lost secrets I don't mean to imply that undiscovered discoveries might still be brought to light. Many unanswered questions remain. From what I understand > 90 % of the site has yet to be unearthed. I meant it in the mystical or occult sense (lets not dig to deep, pls excuse the pun).

Agreed ... Thanks for the clarification.

True no signs of farming or animal husbandry have been found. So we must assume that the structures were constructed by a hunter - gatherer culture (which in itself is amazing). Particularly since such groups aren't expected to gather in the numbers needed to construct such a site.

Yep ... That's why I nominated monumental architecture realized on a hunter/ gatherer foundation as being significant (to the broader issues of socio-cultural evolution).

Recent survey work in the Amazon basin suggests a similar scenario - i.e., a widespread network of earthworks and social centers, apparently supported by a subsistence base falling short of the settled agrarian lifestyle we've typically associated with such collaborative construction / constructs.

The shift from hunting / gathering to settled agriculture couldn't have occurred overnight. It's only now that we're starting to discover (or maybe simply acknowledge ... ) there was an intermediate or transitional phase during which some elements of presumptive 'civilization' arose before participants settled down in fixed locations.

I suspect that if we ever come to understand this transition it will be at least as informative as mapping out our prior biological evolution and / or our subsequent socio-economic / technological evolution.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... EG accused me of being a "hand-waver" following my pictorial earlier post about the "handbag" or something similar appearing in religious artefacts in different cultures and times. ...

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. The insinuated commonality among 'handbags' from widely-separated cultures / traditions, like a number of other presumptions that visual similarity somehow must mean literal commonality, dates back a long way.

This sort of presumption provides the basis for (e.g.) claiming any anomalous figure in a medieval painting's sky-scape has to be a UFO in the 20th century sense, that anyone who erected a pyramidal structure had to have adopted that architectural concept from a prior civilization, etc., etc.

Any such suggested correlations are risky, and they're most risky when based on nothing more than general shape or form.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. The insinuated commonality among 'handbags' from widely-separated cultures / traditions, like a number of other presumptions that visual similarity somehow must mean literal commonality, dates back a long way.

This sort of presumption provides the basis for (e.g.) claiming any anomalous figure in a medieval painting's sky-scape has to be a UFO in the 20th century sense, that anyone who erected a pyramidal structure had to have adopted that architectural concept from a prior civilization, etc., etc.

Any such suggested correlations are risky, and they're most risky when based on nothing more than general shape or form.

OK fair enough. It was just one Americanism I'd never come across before and my intention was to spark some renewed interest in a thread with surprisingly few replies, given the huge historical significance of Göbekli Tepe.

 

[Shadowsot]

OK fair enough. It was just one Americanism I'd never come across before and my intention was to spark some renewed interest in a thread with surprisingly few replies, given the huge historical significance of Göbekli Tepe.

Yeah, it's unfortunate there's not much discussion about Gobekli. I suspect it's because at the moment there's not much known. Archaeologists and historians tend to be conservative when that's the case.
Unfortunately for the likes of you and me, most of the discussion is between experts or through papers we don't have access to.
For example despite the mentions in publications like Archaeology and others the actual web presence of similar sites or older ones is pretty much nill. Mostly because everyone's focused on the wow factor of the larger structure.
Doesn't help that from an archeological perspective the site is new. The pyramids have been combed over for more than a century.and they're still finding new things there.

And about the hand waving. I get your frustration, but there's a lot of rehash that comes up on these topics and some people get frustrated with it.
I enjoy it personally, but try not to take it personally when folks get short over it. This forum isn't as bad as others.

 

[Tribble]

Last Sunday the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) gave Gobekli Tepe the status of World Heritage site during the 42nd session of the World Heritage Committee in Manama, the capital of Bahrain.

https://www.dailygrail.com/2018/07/gobekli-tepe-receives-unesco-world-heritage-status/

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Last Sunday the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) gave Gobekli Tepe the status of World Heritage site during the 42nd session of the World Heritage Committee in Manama, the capital of Bahrain.

https://www.dailygrail.com/2018/07/gobekli-tepe-receives-unesco-world-heritage-status/

That's good to hear, but let's not forget that World Heritage status didn't protect the colossal Buddha statues from the Taliban.

 

[skinny]

Klaus Schmidt's 2010 article in Documenta Praehistorica on PDF at this link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...aw3Ns3lGsmnSIbjRDr3vxRFy&ust=1544918584974853

 

[Jim]

Klaus Schmidt's 2010 article in Documenta Praehistorica on PDF at this link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=&url=https://revije.ff.uni-lj.si/DocumentaPraehistorica/article/download/37.21/1713/0&psig=AOvVaw3Ns3lGsmnSIbjRDr3vxRFy&ust=1544918584974853

Glad to see solid scientist proof for moving back the date of early - precivilizations. I have trouble with some claims from pseudo-scientice is that they try to bundle in legitimate science like that done by Dr. Schmidt with out there claims for Atlantis or ~ 12,000 year old Tiahuanaco, etc.

 

[AlchoPwn]

That's good to hear, but let's not forget that World Heritage status didn't protect the colossal Buddha statues from the Taliban.

Didn't protect/Couldn't protect. I don't blame the World Heritage Foundation for the evil Muslims do. Seriously, the WHF is not the bad guy here. Were they supposed to intervene militarily? Or hope that they were dealing with civilized human beings? They brought the matter to the world's attention, and a gross act of vandalism was at least recorded to discredit the criminals involved. Islam has always been into cultural vandalism of other religions.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

 

[ramonmercado]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

Hancock says they had JCBs.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

If they used simple, wooden discs or just logs, they would have long rotted away without leaving any evidence.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

If they used simple, wooden discs or just logs, they would have long rotted away without leaving any evidence.

I appreciate that. The oldest known wheel in existence is a solid wooden cart or chariot wheel from Slovenia (Vinca culture?) around 5,000 years old. My point was that, in all probability, the builders of such an extensive and sophisticated structure as Gõbekli Tepe, must have employed the wheel in some capacity.
Some of the Vinca tablets are circular and date to approx 7,000 years ago. That is a couple of thousand years before the officially accepted invention of the wheel. You can't tell me though that some ancient Vinca scribe didn't think "hey, this thing rolls really well! Wonder what else we could do with a shape like this?". Circular motifs also feature on cave art going back 10s of thousands of years.
I suspect wheels existed far earlier than the officially accepted timeline, but the odds of finding solid evidence that old are pretty slim.

 

[dejanmikic]

solid wooden cart or chariot wheel from Slovenia (Vinca culture?)

That's Serbia mate, not Slovenia

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

That's Serbia mate, not Slovenia

Wikipedia gives the location as Slovenia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubljana_Marshes_Wheel

 

[Ladyloafer]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

or a sled type contraption?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

or a sled type contraption?

Obviously a possibility.
The mysterious 'cart ruts' in Malta, which I had the pleasure of exploring a couple of years ago, are thought to be the result of sled-runners scraping grooves in the sandstone, rather than cart-wheels.

 

[Anonymous-50446]

Obviously a possibility.
The mysterious 'cart ruts' in Malta, which I had the pleasure of exploring a couple of years ago, are thought to be the result of sled-runners scraping grooves in the sandstone, rather than cart-wheels.

There was a passing reference to those in the James Cameron’s ‘Search For Atlantis’, as well as mention of them on other Mediterranean islands and even in the Azores.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

There was a passing reference to those in the James Cameron’s ‘Search For Atlantis’, as well as mention of them on other Mediterranean islands and even in the Azores.

I'm trying to persuade my lady that we can afford a trip this year to the Azores. I really want to explore what's left of Atlantis!

 

[Anonymous-50446]

I'm trying to persuade my lady that we can afford a trip this year to the Azores. I really want to explore what's left of Atlantis!

As is my wont, I watched the program in full sceptical sail with the wind behind me (as it were) and I admit I found the program interesting. A little over enthusiastic in their dot-joining, but they whistle-stopped through some quite fascinating archaeology about which we don't appear to know very much.

 

[Frideswide]

The mysterious 'cart ruts' in Malta, which I had the pleasure of exploring a couple of years ago, are thought to be the result of sled-runners scraping grooves in the sandstone, rather than cart-wheels.

nodding - they can be distinguished archaeologically.

 

[Anonymous-50446]

nodding - they can be distinguished archaeologically.

Interested. In what way?

 

[Frideswide]

wheels rotate - the same surface irregularities happen in a repeat pattern. Runners slide - the pattern doesn't repeat in the same way.