Göbekli Tepe: Temples From 10,000 B.C.

[blessmycottonsocks]

"Possibly, but it's worthwhile to be hesitant to ascribe what we'd expect to see in terms of meanings on a culture so far removed from ours. "

Agreed. EG accused me of being a "hand-waver" following my pictorial earlier post about the "handbag" or something similar appearing in religious artefacts in different cultures and times. I had to look up what was meant by 'hand-waving' . It apparently is a pejorative term for those in academic circles making unproven claims. Well I'm no academic. Just a very interested amateur, who assembled a collection of images I personally found interesting and hoped other members of the forum would do so too. I looked forward to discussion with other forumists and I'm happy to change my opinion when more learned analysis emerges. Similarly, my speculation that the sculptures of animals in aggressive poses may have been warnings to stay away, were just that - speculation and I'm not plugging any particular Däniken/Hancock style agenda here.

 

[EnolaGaia]

When I speak of lost secrets I don't mean to imply that undiscovered discoveries might still be brought to light. Many unanswered questions remain. From what I understand > 90 % of the site has yet to be unearthed. I meant it in the mystical or occult sense (lets not dig to deep, pls excuse the pun).

Agreed ... Thanks for the clarification.

True no signs of farming or animal husbandry have been found. So we must assume that the structures were constructed by a hunter - gatherer culture (which in itself is amazing). Particularly since such groups aren't expected to gather in the numbers needed to construct such a site.

Yep ... That's why I nominated monumental architecture realized on a hunter/ gatherer foundation as being significant (to the broader issues of socio-cultural evolution).

Recent survey work in the Amazon basin suggests a similar scenario - i.e., a widespread network of earthworks and social centers, apparently supported by a subsistence base falling short of the settled agrarian lifestyle we've typically associated with such collaborative construction / constructs.

The shift from hunting / gathering to settled agriculture couldn't have occurred overnight. It's only now that we're starting to discover (or maybe simply acknowledge ... ) there was an intermediate or transitional phase during which some elements of presumptive 'civilization' arose before participants settled down in fixed locations.

I suspect that if we ever come to understand this transition it will be at least as informative as mapping out our prior biological evolution and / or our subsequent socio-economic / technological evolution.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... EG accused me of being a "hand-waver" following my pictorial earlier post about the "handbag" or something similar appearing in religious artefacts in different cultures and times. ...

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. The insinuated commonality among 'handbags' from widely-separated cultures / traditions, like a number of other presumptions that visual similarity somehow must mean literal commonality, dates back a long way.

This sort of presumption provides the basis for (e.g.) claiming any anomalous figure in a medieval painting's sky-scape has to be a UFO in the 20th century sense, that anyone who erected a pyramidal structure had to have adopted that architectural concept from a prior civilization, etc., etc.

Any such suggested correlations are risky, and they're most risky when based on nothing more than general shape or form.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. The insinuated commonality among 'handbags' from widely-separated cultures / traditions, like a number of other presumptions that visual similarity somehow must mean literal commonality, dates back a long way.

This sort of presumption provides the basis for (e.g.) claiming any anomalous figure in a medieval painting's sky-scape has to be a UFO in the 20th century sense, that anyone who erected a pyramidal structure had to have adopted that architectural concept from a prior civilization, etc., etc.

Any such suggested correlations are risky, and they're most risky when based on nothing more than general shape or form.

OK fair enough. It was just one Americanism I'd never come across before and my intention was to spark some renewed interest in a thread with surprisingly few replies, given the huge historical significance of Göbekli Tepe.

 

[Shadowsot]

OK fair enough. It was just one Americanism I'd never come across before and my intention was to spark some renewed interest in a thread with surprisingly few replies, given the huge historical significance of Göbekli Tepe.

Yeah, it's unfortunate there's not much discussion about Gobekli. I suspect it's because at the moment there's not much known. Archaeologists and historians tend to be conservative when that's the case.
Unfortunately for the likes of you and me, most of the discussion is between experts or through papers we don't have access to.
For example despite the mentions in publications like Archaeology and others the actual web presence of similar sites or older ones is pretty much nill. Mostly because everyone's focused on the wow factor of the larger structure.
Doesn't help that from an archeological perspective the site is new. The pyramids have been combed over for more than a century.and they're still finding new things there.

And about the hand waving. I get your frustration, but there's a lot of rehash that comes up on these topics and some people get frustrated with it.
I enjoy it personally, but try not to take it personally when folks get short over it. This forum isn't as bad as others.

 

[Tribble]

Last Sunday the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) gave Gobekli Tepe the status of World Heritage site during the 42nd session of the World Heritage Committee in Manama, the capital of Bahrain.

https://www.dailygrail.com/2018/07/gobekli-tepe-receives-unesco-world-heritage-status/

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Last Sunday the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) gave Gobekli Tepe the status of World Heritage site during the 42nd session of the World Heritage Committee in Manama, the capital of Bahrain.

https://www.dailygrail.com/2018/07/gobekli-tepe-receives-unesco-world-heritage-status/

That's good to hear, but let's not forget that World Heritage status didn't protect the colossal Buddha statues from the Taliban.

 

[skinny]

Klaus Schmidt's 2010 article in Documenta Praehistorica on PDF at this link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...aw3Ns3lGsmnSIbjRDr3vxRFy&ust=1544918584974853

 

[Jim]

Klaus Schmidt's 2010 article in Documenta Praehistorica on PDF at this link.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=&url=https://revije.ff.uni-lj.si/DocumentaPraehistorica/article/download/37.21/1713/0&psig=AOvVaw3Ns3lGsmnSIbjRDr3vxRFy&ust=1544918584974853

Glad to see solid scientist proof for moving back the date of early - precivilizations. I have trouble with some claims from pseudo-scientice is that they try to bundle in legitimate science like that done by Dr. Schmidt with out there claims for Atlantis or ~ 12,000 year old Tiahuanaco, etc.

 

[AlchoPwn]

That's good to hear, but let's not forget that World Heritage status didn't protect the colossal Buddha statues from the Taliban.

Didn't protect/Couldn't protect. I don't blame the World Heritage Foundation for the evil Muslims do. Seriously, the WHF is not the bad guy here. Were they supposed to intervene militarily? Or hope that they were dealing with civilized human beings? They brought the matter to the world's attention, and a gross act of vandalism was at least recorded to discredit the criminals involved. Islam has always been into cultural vandalism of other religions.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

 

[ramonmercado]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

Hancock says they had JCBs.

 

[Kingsize Wombat]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

If they used simple, wooden discs or just logs, they would have long rotted away without leaving any evidence.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

If they used simple, wooden discs or just logs, they would have long rotted away without leaving any evidence.

I appreciate that. The oldest known wheel in existence is a solid wooden cart or chariot wheel from Slovenia (Vinca culture?) around 5,000 years old. My point was that, in all probability, the builders of such an extensive and sophisticated structure as Gõbekli Tepe, must have employed the wheel in some capacity.
Some of the Vinca tablets are circular and date to approx 7,000 years ago. That is a couple of thousand years before the officially accepted invention of the wheel. You can't tell me though that some ancient Vinca scribe didn't think "hey, this thing rolls really well! Wonder what else we could do with a shape like this?". Circular motifs also feature on cave art going back 10s of thousands of years.
I suspect wheels existed far earlier than the officially accepted timeline, but the odds of finding solid evidence that old are pretty slim.

 

[dejanmikic]

solid wooden cart or chariot wheel from Slovenia (Vinca culture?)

That's Serbia mate, not Slovenia

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

That's Serbia mate, not Slovenia

Wikipedia gives the location as Slovenia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubljana_Marshes_Wheel

 

[Ladyloafer]

As Göbekli Tepe gradually reveals its wondrous secrets, I still find it hard to believe that, at around 10,000 BC, this incredible temple complex supposedly predates the invention of the wheel by some 7,000 years.

Are we really supposed to believe that the construction workers didn't have access to basic carts or even some sort of rudimentary wheelbarrow at the building site?

or a sled type contraption?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

or a sled type contraption?

Obviously a possibility.
The mysterious 'cart ruts' in Malta, which I had the pleasure of exploring a couple of years ago, are thought to be the result of sled-runners scraping grooves in the sandstone, rather than cart-wheels.

 

[Anonymous-50446]

Obviously a possibility.
The mysterious 'cart ruts' in Malta, which I had the pleasure of exploring a couple of years ago, are thought to be the result of sled-runners scraping grooves in the sandstone, rather than cart-wheels.

There was a passing reference to those in the James Cameron’s ‘Search For Atlantis’, as well as mention of them on other Mediterranean islands and even in the Azores.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

There was a passing reference to those in the James Cameron’s ‘Search For Atlantis’, as well as mention of them on other Mediterranean islands and even in the Azores.

I'm trying to persuade my lady that we can afford a trip this year to the Azores. I really want to explore what's left of Atlantis!

 

[Anonymous-50446]

I'm trying to persuade my lady that we can afford a trip this year to the Azores. I really want to explore what's left of Atlantis!

As is my wont, I watched the program in full sceptical sail with the wind behind me (as it were) and I admit I found the program interesting. A little over enthusiastic in their dot-joining, but they whistle-stopped through some quite fascinating archaeology about which we don't appear to know very much.

 

[Frideswide]

The mysterious 'cart ruts' in Malta, which I had the pleasure of exploring a couple of years ago, are thought to be the result of sled-runners scraping grooves in the sandstone, rather than cart-wheels.

nodding - they can be distinguished archaeologically.

 

[Anonymous-50446]

nodding - they can be distinguished archaeologically.

Interested. In what way?

 

[Frideswide]

wheels rotate - the same surface irregularities happen in a repeat pattern. Runners slide - the pattern doesn't repeat in the same way.

 

[Frideswide]

sorry, posted to soon and it looks rather brusque! not intended that way lololololol

Also, there is always some play in a wheel/axle set up and so they can move forward on slightly different routes. Obviously within limits. By contrast, the runners tend to go over the same ground much more exactly.

This isn't an especially good picture but here is some "wheel" wear from Housteads Roman Fort. Different shape to the one considered to be archetypal "runner" wear

 

[Anonymous-50446]

wheels rotate - the same surface irregularities happen in a repeat pattern. Runners slide - the pattern doesn't repeat in the same way.

Ah, obvious when you explain it. Not hard to cut such groves I'd have thought, grease and sand as a grinding agent. I wonder why this was preferred to wheeled transport? One envisages a kind of towing operation with a windlass.

 

[Frideswide]

I wonder why this was preferred to wheeled transport?

no ideas I suppose... maybe... if the system works then don't fix it? inertia in other words. Restrictive practices by the sled makers?

wheels aren't obvious either. You get fixed and moving axles, and have to find something (usually metal) to seat and protect the moving parts.... so maybe it was just a big faff?

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Is there any evidence of transport grooves, whether by sled or wheel, in the proximity of Gõbekli Tepe?

 

[brownmane]

Interesting topic. I just happened on it today. I keep trying to review different threads, but there is a lot of reading and I am doing well just to keep up with what I have previously read. Could take me years

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

wheels rotate - the same surface irregularities happen in a repeat pattern. Runners slide - the pattern doesn't repeat in the same way.

But, unless the same wheel, with the same irregularities, started the same journey from the same spot every time, the grooves would still wear down in a fairly consistent manner along their entire length.
We know the "chariot grooves" at Pompeii were worn down by wheeled transport but they still bear something of a resemblance (albeit nowhere near as old) to the grooves across Malta.