Ghost Evolution

[Cloudbusting]

Alan Murdie speculated about 2000 that EM pollution, caused by the rising use of mobile phones, may have had a detrimental effect on ghost reports. Others have since thought it may have an effect too.

There are some 5G conspiracy crazies who live in my area. I wonder if I'll ever get a leaflet through the door which claims '5G is killing our ghosts'.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Here's a thought, modifying what others have speculated. It could be the "out of time" ghosts like cavaliers, monks etc. and phantoms from centuries ago have just faded. All we are left with are modern day ghosts, and they may walk among us - but we just don't know as they don't stand out.

We have had 20th/21st Century road ghosts in response to a modern world of millions of automobiles on the roads. There are some very well documented cases by a number of researchers including FT columnist Rob Gandy.

From Dr Paul Lee’s survey of historically haunted locations the reports have gently faded and it is a great piece of Fortean investigation . One factor might be that our modern-day curators are less inclined to believe in the hauntings regardless, and thus less likely to be receptive to nervous/frightened visitors who have that “I’ve just seen a ghost” look about them. Then again it might be that visitors are less inclined to disclose their experience in our more cynical 21st Century world. What we do know is they are not being reported in theses formerly active locations.,

 

[DrPaulLee]

There is a caveat of course. These places might just be saying that they have no ghosts just to fob me off. There's no way of knowing.

Funnily enough some of these places still open the door for ghost hunters, charging a fortune. Odd that, isn't it.

 

[Mythopoeika]

Here's a thought, modifying what others have speculated. It could be the "out of time" ghosts like cavaliers, monks etc. and phantoms from centuries ago have just faded.

It may be why nobody has ever seen a ghost of a caveman (AFAIK).

 

[DrPaulLee]

I can't say for sure, but I know that Iron Age ghosts, some on horseback have been seen. I wish I could give more details but a lot of my ghost books have been sold - and the majority of these type of tales come from the History Press type of book, which lack references meaning that any verification is difficult.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I can't say for sure, but I know that Iron Age ghosts, some on horseback have been seen. I wish I could give more details but a lot of my ghost books have been sold - and the majority of these type of tales come from the History Press type of book, which lack references meaning that any verification is difficult.

When were they last seen, though?

 

[DrPaulLee]

Exactly, thats the whole point. There's little information to go on, and some of them sound very old (early 20th century)

 

[catseye]

When were they last seen, though?

Given the apparent lack of any kind of historical knowledge among the populace in general, I wouldn't take bets on anyone being able to accurately give a date for most apparitions. Something unseen sounding like a horse galloping? Could be anything from your mounted Iron Age warrior through highwaymen to any period just pre-car.

I seem to remember trying to ascertain in a post on here, whether a spectral horse sounded as though it were iron shod or not, and not really getting an answer.

 

[pelgrane]

It may be why nobody has ever seen a ghost of a caveman (AFAIK).

Unless, perhaps, the silt of ages has covered their haunts and these ancient spectres are still going their ghostly rounds in what has now become subterranean....

 

[Tunn11]

In a lot of cases how are we sure that an apparition is of a dead person? If it resembles Marley or whoever we still can't be certain hence lots of allegations that the spook is impersonating someone else. Could it be an attempt at communication by something?

Maybe there is a need for more definitions when we discuss haunts?
As cloudbusting said many "ghost" TV shows have to have "demons" I suspect mainly for dramatic effect but are they ghosts?
Polts are seen as different but IIRC some involve ghost monks etc.
Ghosts of the living and crisis apparitions are different again.
Then there are cultural differences. Japanese ghosts that you can't escape, Indian sub continent where backwards facing feet IIRC are the sign of a ghost or spirit (also attributed to some Yeti sightings) etc.
Could BHM sightings in area where they is no possibility that they are cryptids (England) be ghost cavemen?
What of lights in the sky or in the open (Lubbock Lights, etc.) are they ghosts or UFOs?

Is the phenomenon as a whole decreasing or are certain areas stabilising or even increasing and is this a purely regional trend (e.g. only in Europe and the US)?

If the energy to power the phenomenon is declining, why? I can see that an Iron age ghost may be running out of steam (Steam powered ghosts , mustn't be sidetracked) but why would the energy be lower now unless, as suggested something in our technology is causing it.

People may not recognise ghosts as ghosts if seen "out and about" but surely if some old dear in a 1950s twin set shows up in your living room you'd think it odd?

Sorry for the rambling and all the questions (perhaps I'm channeling James Joyce) but some great answers to my original post which have got me asking even more questions.

 

[catseye]

People may not recognise ghosts as ghosts if seen "out and about" but surely if some old dear in a 1950s twin set shows up in your living room you'd think it odd?

I suspect most of us would just think 'mother is paying another of her 'unexpected visits' again, I hope I tidied the bathroom'.

I do remember reading a theory that ghosts were strongest (so perhaps not immediately identifiable as ghosts) straight after death, but gradually became less as time went on. So that 'Lady Dudley's Ghost' in a red crinoline, seen and heard walking up and down stairs in her house, may become a lady in a grey dress doing same, and then faint outline on the stairs and eventually nothing but the sound of someone on the staircase, maybe tailing off in nothing but a smell of roses in one spot. So perhaps the Iron Age ghosts have just run out of juice? Or maybe the earlier belief systems didn't allow for ghosts, so they all rode off to their version of the afterlife and nobody was left earthbound?

 

[BS3]

In a lot of cases how are we sure that an apparition is of a dead person? If it resembles Marley or whoever we still can't be certain hence lots of allegations that the spook is impersonating someone else. Could it be an attempt at communication by something?

Maybe there is a need for more definitions when we discuss haunts?
As cloudbusting said many "ghost" TV shows have to have "demons" I suspect mainly for dramatic effect but are they ghosts?
Polts are seen as different but IIRC some involve ghost monks etc.
Ghosts of the living and crisis apparitions are different again.
Then there are cultural differences. Japanese ghosts that you can't escape, Indian sub continent where backwards facing feet IIRC are the sign of a ghost or spirit (also attributed to some Yeti sightings) etc.
Could BHM sightings in area where they is no possibility that they are cryptids (England) be ghost cavemen?
What of lights in the sky or in the open (Lubbock Lights, etc.) are they ghosts or UFOs?

Is the phenomenon as a whole decreasing or are certain areas stabilising or even increasing and is this a purely regional trend (e.g. only in Europe and the US)?

If the energy to power the phenomenon is declining, why? I can see that an Iron age ghost may be running out of steam (Steam powered ghosts , mustn't be sidetracked) but why would the energy be lower now unless, as suggested something in our technology is causing it.

People may not recognise ghosts as ghosts if seen "out and about" but surely if some old dear in a 1950s twin set shows up in your living room you'd think it odd?

Sorry for the rambling and all the questions (perhaps I'm channeling James Joyce) but some great answers to my original post which have got me asking even more questions.

What seems to be clear is that, even judging by the IHTM type stories on this board, people's definition of a 'ghost' is a. quite broad and b. does, as far as I can see, still include the traditional types of apparition, including non-shadowy human figures, floating mists etc.

I think the phenomenon probably ebbs and flows depending on people's belief systems. In the UK you can find interesting patterns in the collapse of Anglicanism in the wake of World War I, the subsequent reinvigoration of spiritualism and interest in 'ghosts' generally, and its fading out in a landscape defined first by World War II and then by a state supposedly built on secular, 'scientific' progress, rather than the old moral and social certainties of the Edwardian era and earlier.

The Victorians seem to have been very interested in ghosts, and largely defined the 'popular' image we've inherited of what ghosts should be like; the late 18th century associated them with medievalism and Catholicism as a symbol of pre-rational desires and fears; in the earlier 18th century ghosts were still real at a 'popular' level but looked very different to present day hauntings, etc. And through it all we have the ambiguous attitude of the state church, and its representatives, to ghosts - something a bit more pronounced in America, where the prevalent varieties of Protestantism were often more direct in denouncing anything 'supernatural' as a delusion and snare put out by evil forces to trip us up.

It would be a surprise if your average medieval monk figure, dutifully haunting the site of his abbey, managed to continue unchanged through all of that.

 

[BS3]

The other thing is that even in the 'classic' period you get enormous variation both of hauntings and literary treatment of them. Look at the stories of M R James as an example of how ghosts were once imagined - you get the full range from a medieval-style animated corpse (Wailing Well, the Mezzotint) to almost demonic-feeling 'beasts' (the Ash Tree etc) to a more traditional type of haunting (A Neighbour's Landmark) and of course the classic moving bed sheets (Oh Whistle and I'll Come to You, My Lad).

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Unless, perhaps, the silt of ages has covered their haunts and these ancient spectres are still going their ghostly rounds in what has now become subterranean....

Hence Roman soldiers appear in a cellar but not marching the streets of York

 

[BS3]

Hence Roman soldiers appear in a cellar but not marching the streets of York

I seem to remember that on another thread you posted an account related to you of what I thought was an absolutely classic type of ghost - a figure apparently composed of luminous mist, seen alongside the driveway of some big house or other. I think the witness might have been cycling past it?

Anyway, from a purely personal perspective, that was one that fitted my own mental image of what a ghost should look like, although now little reported. I think we all have these expectations and that they do have some bearing on the phenomenon and how it appears.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

When were they last seen, though?

Forum member Ruth Roper-Wylde has devoted her early retirement to investigating the ghosts of Britain and in doing so has uncovered a veritable treasure trove of previously unreported hauntings that include apparitions. Moreover, many reports are from the 21st century. Her books are available on Kindle for a modest price:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ruth-Roper-Wylde/e/B07MTR4LH3?ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1&qid=1651919691&sr=8-1

Ruth isn't an armchair internet researcher but gets out there knocking on doors and it has paid dividends. She has talked about being frustrated by the "a grey lady appears on mid-summers eve, has not been seen in living memory" type of local legends stories and wanted first-hand accounts by living witnesses.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I seem to remember that on another thread you posted an account related to you of what I thought was an absolutely classic type of ghost - a figure apparently composed of luminous mist, seen alongside the driveway of some big house or other. I think the witness might have been cycling past it?

Anyway, from a purely personal perspective, that was one that fitted my own mental image of what a ghost should look like, although now little reported. I think we all have these expectations and that they do have some bearing on the phenomenon and how it appears.

Yes, that was in 1994 and occurred on the private drive of Dartington Hall early one morning:

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...hhikers-road-ghosts.1632/page-10#post-2097780

Dartington Hall is a great example of ghost evolution. The Grey Lady ghost has been written about many times (scroll down in same link):

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...hhikers-road-ghosts.1632/page-10#post-2097780

However, to the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a reliable sighting since, just some rather dubious claims. That said, I personally met two separate witnesses to a ghost cat in the gatehouse lodge, the witness to the glowing figure above was a workmate of mine, I witnessed some poltergeist-type noises whilst closing up the bar late at night and I was told about a hideous Mr Punch-like apparition that appeared in the dining room in the early 90s.

Dartington is only about three miles as the crow flies from Berry Pomeroy Castle, with its own hauntings and at least two time slips, so perhaps this is an active area?

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Interestingly, writing the above led me to remember a possible Dartington time slip.

In 2001/2 I was chatting to a workmate who had held various jobs at the hall on and off over the years and had grown up visiting the gardens.
He told me about how once he had witnessed the whole medieval courtyard transformed from its modern-day appearance to that of the 14th Century, with wooden shutters affixed to all the windows, straw strewn around the ground and the courtyard lawn given a farmyard makeover. He seemed to think this had been for a television production but couldn't be sure, and the date would have been in the 70s when he was still at school or shortly after.

This is completely at odds with the ethos of the Trust, who have never sought to make Dartington a living museum. There are no suits of armour or staff dressed as peasants and wenches, but rather just a few nods to the past here and there. Whats more, I could find no record of this filming ever have taken place, no photos and despite there having been plenty of long-serving employees, no-one else ever spoke of this taking place. There was a courtyard food festival in 1994 with a medieval theme and a guest appearance by Tony Robinson as Baldrick, but the Trustees were not best pleased it had allowed to take place and it was never repeated.

So was it a dream or did he experience a time slip back to Dartington's past...? I wish I had pursued this further with him.

 

[DrPaulLee]

I am strongly remembering one of the Usborne children's books on ghosts, which shows a graphic of a lady in a red dress gradually transmuting to a pink gown and then finally into a faint grey form.

 

[DrPaulLee]

Found it. Usborne pocketbooks "Supernatural Guides - Haunted Houses, Ghosts and Spectres" (1979)

 

[BS3]

Found it. Usborne pocketbooks "Supernatural Guides - Haunted Houses, Ghosts and Spectres" (1979)View attachment 55110

I cannot seem to find what site this is supposed to be. The source of the story is apparently Andrew Green's 1973 Ghost Hunting.

 

[Kondoru]

I dont see how shadows can be ghosts.

we see shadows every day, might not notice them.

Jumping at shadows implies a high level of nervousness.

 

[BS3]

Here's an interesting point which might argue against the idea of ghosts fading chronologically: there are no documented 'Roman' ghosts in the UK prior to 1904 (source).

 

[maximus otter]

Here's an interesting point which might argue against the idea of ghosts fading chronologically: there are no documented 'Roman' ghosts in the UK prior to 1904 (source).

lt might be the case that ghosts of Romans are seen, but not recognised as such.

Roman peasant costumes:

maximus otter

 

[Paul_Exeter]

Here's an interesting point which might argue against the idea of ghosts fading chronologically: there are no documented 'Roman' ghosts in the UK prior to 1904 (source).

That is a challenging concept, I suppose you could ask if the average person understood what a Roman soldier would look like prior to 1904? Or was it the expansions of our towns and cities that disturbed the spirits of the long-dead Romans?

 

[BS3]

lt might be the case that ghosts of Romans are seen, but not recognised as such.

Roman peasant costumes:

maximus otter

These look quite practical!

I suppose this leads on to the point: what is the average person's understanding of a "Roman"? In Britain I'd bet that the answer would be "a soldier", even though there were many civilians under the Roman administration here.

Why do they only appear after 1904? My feeling is that in this country, popular understanding of Romans (as opposed to understanding of Roman images amongst the educated class and antiquaries) first emerged through religious education - Romans in the Bible appear largely as a force of military occupation. Was 1904 soon after the mass availability of cheap illustrated Bible editions? Was there an exhibition or similar that might have brought the idea of Roman soldiers into popular consciousness?

 

[Tunn11]

Also Roman soldier is usually visualised as dressed in lorica segmentata but this was by no means the only armour used by the legions or auxiliaries - and not the cavalry.

 

[BS3]

Owen Davies makes another good point - that Britain has both an unusually high number of historic traditions about ghosts and relatively high current levels of belief in ghosts. His argument as I understand it is that this is at least partly a result of the impact of the Reformation on the country. Before that time, Catholicism not only allowed for a diverse range of heavenly representatives - saints, angels, etc - it also, through Purgatory, provided a theological justification for ghosts' existence.

The Reformation in Britain not only did away with the intercession of saints, but also the concept of Purgatory. Despite this the Anglican church never really got around to stamping out belief in ghosts - much as it was a bit of a compromise in other areas too. So unlike the Catholic nations of the Continent, we abandoned belief in active saints and angels, yet at a popular level clung on to the existence of ghosts despite the fact they were no longer part of the official religious landscape. Indeed - partly because ghosts were sort-of-tolerated while all the other 'supernatural' stuff was theologically discouraged - we ended up with greater levels of belief in ghosts, and indeed more ghosts, than most European countries, whether Catholic or Protestant. That ghosts are in some way part of our cultural heritage, for want of a better term, might also explain why they seem to evolve.

 

[Paul_Exeter]

There was a very good case in one of Andy Gilbert’s ‘Credible Witness‘ books in which a police officer pulled into an abandoned farm entrance to await further instruction. As he sat there in his patrol car a large, ruddy-faced man in a lumberjack shirt came striding towards him. The police officer braced himself for a possible confrontation but the man walked straight past him and through a wall into a building. The shocked officer investigated only to find a solid wall.

This incident took place relatively recently. If the police officer hadn’t been as observant and watched him all the way, then he might only have seen a farm worker passing by and not the vanishing into a wall, which begs the question as to how many of us see a 20th Century ghost without ever knowing it…?

 

[BS3]

There was a very good case in one of Andy Gilbert’s ‘Credible Witness‘ books in which a police officer pulled into an abandoned farm entrance to await further instruction. As he sat there in his patrol car a large, ruddy-faced man in a lumberjack shirt came striding towards him. The police officer braced himself for a possible confrontation but the man walked straight past him and through a wall into a building. The shocked officer investigated only to find a solid wall.

This incident took place relatively recently. If the police officer hadn’t been as observant and watched him all the way, then he might only have seen a farm worker passing by and not the vanishing into a wall, which begs the question as to how many of us see a 20th Century ghost without ever knowing it…?

This also brings into play the idea of 'ghost' sightings of people who are still alive - I've read a few examples on this forum.