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Ghosts: Real Or Just Our Imagination?

according to the popular theory, ghosts are the soul of the dead, usually the dead wich were killed in a dramatic event, like 9/11
so it doesn't makes sense that a building built exactly in the place where one of the most dramatic events of the century took place would have no ghost activity yet a random ruined structure in wild would be filled with ghosts
another point to the vallee-keel paradigm i guess
 
A traditional belief about ghosts is that they are the spirits of the unjustly killed seeking justice or proper burial.
According to this idea there might well be a couple of thousand WTC ghosts present but they'll be haunting the places where they died, which could be hundreds of feet in the air.
one of the most common ghost manifestations are huge balls of light (plasma?), are the new yorkians so stupid that they don't notice a bunch of orbs flying near the skyscrapers?
Yeah but that's not that many ghosts on battle fields or concentration camps so if u go by the stone tape theory there should be more. As there should if it's a spirit seeking justice.
that is exactly my point!
I suspect it is less about spirits seeking justice, and more about spirits who don't know they died.
that theory creates a problem wich is the opposite of the one i mentioned: why are there so many ghosts of murders and assasinations and not many ghosts of people that died due to natural causes while sleeping?
i suspect one would know that they died once they got shoot in the head or stabbed in the back...
The Stone Tape/Water tape idea is BS. And those who promote it currently, like ghost hunting groups, get it even more wrong by assuming these “special” rocks and minerals are there when they aren’t. Alternatively, they say it’s related to quartz or limestone in an area where that bedrock type exists widely across the adjacent landscape. The concept makes zero sense and has no evidence to back it up. Yet, it sounds sufficiently plausible and sciencey to people who don’t know these details and so is useful for looking credible.
agreed, its a ridiculous theory
of course in the end, just like in ufology, the only theory that stands to scrutinity is the vallee-keel paradigm
That is exactly how ghosts were described to be by a guy I worked with at my first job and who claimed to be a medium.
He said that if you're crossing the road on your way to work and get knocked down and killed, your spirit may continue that walk to work.
how one would not notice they got killed once they got hit by a high speed car?
 
"how one would not notice they got killed once they got hit by a high speed car?"

I don't know. I was just sharing what an old guy I used to work with said.
He felt it was his duty to help confused dead people's spirits to move on to the next level.
You might as well ask if you die during your sleep, do you not realise until you wake up!
 
that theory creates a problem wich is the opposite of the one i mentioned: why are there so many ghosts of murders and assasinations and not many ghosts of people that died due to natural causes while sleeping?
i suspect one would know that they died once they got shoot in the head or stabbed in the back...

You are making the assumption that the ghosts of those who die sleeping are not also present. I think ghosts who die traumatically have PTSD and have a harder time shaking off their attachments.
 
one of the most common ghost manifestations are huge balls of light (plasma?), are the new yorkians so stupid that they don't notice a bunch of orbs flying near the skyscrapers?

that is exactly my point!

that theory creates a problem wich is the opposite of the one i mentioned: why are there so many ghosts of murders and assasinations and not many ghosts of people that died due to natural causes while sleeping?
i suspect one would know that they died once they got shoot in the head or stabbed in the back...

agreed, its a ridiculous theory
of course in the end, just like in ufology, the only theory that stands to scrutinity is the vallee-keel paradigm

how one would not notice they got killed once they got hit by a high speed car?

There can be no of course about it. I think vallee - keel is bs - just my opinion of course.
 
You are making the assumption that the ghosts of those who die sleeping are not also present. I think ghosts who die traumatically have PTSD and have a harder time shaking off their attachments.
i would think that sleeping ghosts would outnumber the murder ghosts
 
The Stone Tape/Water tape idea is BS. And those who promote it currently, like ghost hunting groups, get it even more wrong by assuming these “special” rocks and minerals are there when they aren’t. Alternatively, they say it’s related to quartz or limestone in an area where that bedrock type exists widely across the adjacent landscape. The concept makes zero sense and has no evidence to back it up. Yet, it sounds sufficiently plausible and sciencey to people who don’t know these details and so is useful for looking credible.
In the late '80's as physics undergraduates, a pal and me sat down to examine this notion the basis of some kind of 'recording brain data into stone' hypothesis.

We considered iron bearing rocks, analogous to tape recordings and also quartz bearing rocks, on the basis that they were piezo-electric (we'd come across a reference to some stones emitting ultrasonic sounds as they warmed up, which is at least feasible).

We couldn't come up with a single decent credible verifiable hypothetical mechanism for storing information from a brain in said rocks and then 'viewing' said information with another brain (e.g) 100 years later. We decided it was almost certainly* bunk.

'Of course that doesn't mean it's not possible.' *rolls eyes*

What's interesting is that even a casual examination of this idea then shows it to be a compete non-starter, yet folk cling to it with the tenacity of excrement on a loose-weave wool bed-cover. Despite the technological advances of the last three decade, folk are as gullible now as they were then. Which is sad.



* For all practical purposes, impossible.
 
I suspect it is less about spirits seeking justice, and more about spirits who don't know they died.

at the ready admittance that this comment is low-hanging-fruit at this point, this is of course the entire premise of The Sixth Sense. i've always thought it made much more sense than seeking justice.

In the late '80's as physics undergraduates, a pal and me sat down to examine this notion the basis of some kind of 'recording brain data into stone' hypothesis.

We considered iron bearing rocks, analogous to tape recordings and also quartz bearing rocks, on the basis that they were piezo-electric (we'd come across a reference to some stones emitting ultrasonic sounds as they warmed up, which is at least feasible).

We couldn't come up with a single decent credible verifiable hypothetical mechanism for storing information from a brain in said rocks and then 'viewing' said information with another brain (e.g) 100 years later. We decided it was almost certainly* bunk.

'Of course that doesn't mean it's not possible.' *rolls eyes*

What's interesting is that even a casual examination of this idea then shows it to be a compete non-starter, yet folk cling to it with the tenacity of excrement on a loose-weave wool bed-cover. Despite the technological advances of the last three decade, folk are as gullible now as they were then. Which is sad.

Sad indeed. While I always maintain a certain skepticism, I must admit I always liked this theory. But after your anecdote, I am convinced of its inadequacy. but ya never know.

I tend to think of ghosts as something similar to the shadow people of sleep paralysis. certain stages of sleep create certain preconditions in the brain, and when those processes are interrupted in some way, consistent and notable anomalies occur. this idea of course leaves lots of room of interpretation in and of itself.

i'd bet that there is also some sort of cymatics-type explanation behind ghosts. perhaps there are certain environmental preconditions, electromagnetic or otherwise, that create certain repetitious hallucinatory results in the minds of the witness. that is not to say that a ghost is even a spirit in the traditional sense of the word. but something is certainly going on, i don't discount the phenomenology itself.
 
Sad indeed. While I always maintain a certain skepticism, I must admit I always liked this theory. But after your anecdote, I am convinced of its inadequacy. but ya never know.

Don't take my word for it, dig into it yourself! I've been known to be wrong...

I tend to think of ghosts as something similar to the shadow people of sleep paralysis. certain stages of sleep create certain preconditions in the brain, and when those processes are interrupted in some way, consistent and notable anomalies occur. this idea of course leaves lots of room of interpretation in and of itself.

i'd bet that there is also some sort of cymatics-type explanation behind ghosts. perhaps there are certain environmental preconditions, electromagnetic or otherwise, that create certain repetitious hallucinatory results in the minds of the witness. that is not to say that a ghost is even a spirit in the traditional sense of the word. but something is certainly going on, i don't discount the phenomenology itself.

I agree, the phenomenon of 'ghosts' is well established. I've (personally) discounted the notion of some kind of independent non-corporeal being as there is no theoretical underlying mechanism for this, but suspect the answer lies in a form of involuntarily recalled memory, that in itself is susceptible to belief and expectations, in line with current thinking on cognitive biases and the formation and re-consolidation of memories.

However, I do wonder if some topological or physical trigger is part of the mix. For example, does the odour or layout of a building and/or type of stone trigger such an event? E.g. Lethbridge noted that a really unpleasant feeling of a presence, which he called 'ghouls', tended to be in damp places.

Lyall Watson wrote a nice little book on the Jacobson's Organ, two pits of smell receptors that are almost vestigial, but that appear to be involved in the detection of pheromones and are wired (as it were) to the earlier parts of our brain, suggesting that we might be smelling other people without being consciously aware of it. They also specialise in heavy moisture-borne odour particles. Speculating, this might prime a person to expect another person appearing in view.

If I had the time/money, I'd be hunting for some chemical, organic or otherwise that is similar to a human pheromone and that tends to occur in damp and/or other haunted locations. I'd go for a fungus first, possibly one that likes damp rotten wood.
 
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One thing that doesn’t make sense about ghosts to me:
If a person’s spirit leaves the body, I don’t think they would take their clothes with them. So many stories about ghosts in uniforms and dresses... seems to me that would be a manifestation of the mind of the person seeing it,
not a spirit...
 
One thing that doesn’t make sense about ghosts to me:
If a person’s spirit leaves the body, I don’t think they would take their clothes with them. So many stories about ghosts in uniforms and dresses... seems to me that would be a manifestation of the mind of the person seeing it,
not a spirit...

Unless the ghost is projecting how it envisaged itself in life, in which case unless they were a nudist they'd be used to an image of themselves wearing clothes, so that's what you see.
 
Unless the ghost is projecting how it envisaged itself in life, in which case unless they were a nudist they'd be used to an image of themselves wearing clothes, so that's what you see.

As I've mentioned previously on'ere, my late father was a bit of a nudist and would wander around in the nip at home. My mother wasn't impressed as they last place they lived in had huge windows. Not like an exhibitionist, wasn't trying to flash anyone, he just wanted to be nekkid in privacy.

Anyway... soon after his death, my mother had a vivid dream about Dad prancing around in a crowded park. As only she could see him he was free at last to parade his body as God made it without fear of censure or arrest.
 
My self image includes wearing clothes, I don't think I'd be a naked ghost.

If post-death appearance depended on the deceased's self-image, wouldn't that make for a lot of 'fancy dress' ghosts (e.g., in anachronistic or sci-fi garb)?
 
If post-death appearance depended on the deceased's self-image, wouldn't that make for a lot of 'fancy dress' ghosts (e.g., in anachronistic or sci-fi garb)?
My self image includes my day to day wear. But if you see a ghost in for example 1850's wear, you would likely think it was a ghost from the 1850's rather than someone who died last week but liked dressing from the 1850's.
 
I'm pretty skeptical about the whole ghost phenom...but I am curious. Are there any really good photos that have been identified as possible ghost pics....mundane things being ruled out?
 
I'm pretty skeptical about the whole ghost phenom...but I am curious. Are there any really good photos that have been identified as possible ghost pics....mundane things being ruled out?
there is that one from the 50's were a head can be seen behind a man (who is inside a car), i have never found a explanation for that one and its pretty clear
 
I'm happy to throw my cards on the table and to state without doubt that I believe in ghosts. I've seen and heard a number of them in my lifetime. Some were people close to me, others had no association to me personally, though I'm certain had an attachment to the building where I had the experience and some have been animals (I've written about the ghost cat I lived with elsewhere on these forums). One I can offer no explanation for.

Without boring you, a very brief summation of some of the encounters I've had.

Age 14, 1979. My family move to a large rambling 49 room house in the country. Old by Australian standards. The house was in a ''U'' shape with one wing two stories and the former staff quarters. Exploring rooms full of leftover items from the previous owners, I use the upstairs bathroom one afternoon. I wash my hands and exit the room only to see on the landing a figure in what appears to be a military uniform staring out the window. I could see right through him. He was outlined in a fuzzy, purple haze which appeared to be as though it was electrified. I was no more than 20 feet from the figure and watched it for 30 seconds or so until it simply faded before my eyes. My only exit was down the stair via the landing where it had been standing. It terrified me. My mother also saw a ghostly woman walk out of one bedroom, down a hallway and into another bedroom one night. There is a gatehouse on the property where I believe something evil resides. That's a whole other story.

Forward to 1987. My father had passed away from a cerebral hemorrhage in November of 1985. No signs of illness beforehand. He woke up, went to work, collapsed and died the following afternoon. My sister and I donated both of his kidneys. My fiancee at the time and I had moved into a new apartment. We both smoked at the time. I woke one night with the feeling that something was not right. I went downstairs only to see a faint glowing, golden light. My father was standing there. I had the overwhelming sense, that although he didn't speak, that he was trying to say that he (and everything) would be alright.

1989 to 1997 The house with the ghost cat that I have written about previously. He was big and black and regularly sighted. He was quite a friendly creature I sensed and he never bother me or my family.

2011 to Present. My wife and I own two gift stores. One is definitely haunted. It previously was the town bakery and the baker was an Austrian fellow who had a reputation as quite a drunkard. He didn't die on the premises, but when the store is closed, you can hear footsteps walking on the floorboards and he loves to mess the greeting cards up especially after we've just finished tidying them up. He's not sinister at all, just playful. You sometimes see the occasional shadow moving about, though rarely.

Our home, 2008 to present. My first wife and I separated in 1990. She passed away in 2009 after taking her own life. Around a month after the death, I was at home working along (doing graphic design/web design work) when I distinctly heard her voice say both my name and ''Goodbye''. The only other living being in the house at the time were our two small dogs, who certainly cannot speak. I found this to be quite disconcerting and eerie. I assumed she was coming to see me one last time, though I couldn't understand why as we were not on good terms.
My present wife (together 18 years) and I also had two ghosts in our home, one a little girl who we'd often hear weeping or talking to herself and and older lady who we'd sometimes see moving from door to door across the hallway. A psychic friend of ours told us that the older woman was scaring one of our dogs, hence why he was wetting inside all the time, so after reading some up on some banishing rituals, I gave it a try and moved them along. It seemed to have worked as we have not heard nor seen neither since, and our dog is much better behaved.
Our female dog Poppy passed away in October just gone, yet twice in the past two weeks, I've been convinced I've seen our other dog Toby running down the stairs or hallway, only to find he's been with my wife on both occasions (he's a mummy's boy). I'm hoping it's her, still enjoying her home here with us. The glimpses have been fleeting, but they make me happy.

Make of all of the above what you will. I can't tell you what ''ghosts'' are, I can only tell you of what I've personally seen and heard.
 
My self image includes wearing clothes, I don't think I'd be a naked ghost.

I dunno, I'm inclined towards becoming the paranormal investigation world's first famous Mooning Ghost. Certain individuals of my past and current acquaintance richly deserve this form of visitation and I will happily fulfil their retribution.
 
Our female dog Poppy passed away in October just gone, yet twice in the past two weeks, I've been convinced I've seen our other dog Toby running down the stairs or hallway, only to find he's been with my wife on both occasions (he's a mummy's boy). I'm hoping it's her, still enjoying her home here with us. The glimpses have been fleeting, but they make me happy.

I've posted a story from b3ta a couple of times, about a Hindu belief that deceased animals sometimes can't find their way 'onward' without help. If you haven't seen it I'll dig it out again for you as it always goes down well!

Edit: here it is anyway as I found it right away. Hope you like it.

The night our dog died

When our family dog died, I was in my early twenties still living in the home I was raised, an Indian family in the suburbs of London

As anyone who has had a pet will know, it was devastating for all of us and it marks the one creepy story in my life

The evening that our dog passed away, my younger brother walked into my bedroom at about 2am and quietly asked if i was awake. Of course, that did the trick and I said I was. "Can you hear that?". With such a question, I was wide awake in a nano second and sitting upright.

I strained to pick out what he seemed to hear very obviously, but couldnt hear anything. he repeated twice "there, can't you hear that?".

I might add at this point that my Brother is very level head-headed. Very anti drugs and anti anything that results in loss of mental self control, very stoic... So i did not think then, or now, that he was imagining it and asked him what he could hear. "I can hear Dad outside calling me"

I got out of bed and in my sleepy state, I imagined that perhaps our Father had gone sleep walking or got stuck outside (why, I didnt know, but I was trying to match scenarios to what my Brother was telling me). He had never done either. So, we walked to my Parents room and peered into the darkness.

I quietly called out "Dad?" and he woke with a slight start obviously a bit suprised to have both his adult sons looking in to the room. This time my brother just said he could hear a voice in the garden and now the whole family was awake

What followed would be comical if it wasn't so odd at the time. We all quietly trooped downstairs and I picking up the nearest solid object as now I supposed there must be an intruder in our back garden

Our garden is accessed by huge sliding glass doors. It means that you can see the outside clearer than the inside because of the ambient light from the street. As we walked towards the doors, it was obvious that the garden was empty

Again, my brother asked "Cant you all hear that???" By now he was slightly bewildered more than anything. My Father asked "what exactly can you hear?" and he told him what he told me orginally "Dad, I can hear YOU calling out to me". I still remember my Father's reaction when he asked him to repeat what he just said.

My Father's face showed a sense of recognition & sadness. He seemed to nod.. He looked out at the garden and said to all of us "everyone go to sleep, I am going to stay up a while"

At this point I just thought the whole thing was rather silly and happily trooped up to bed, and was asleep immediately

The next morning, I came downstairs and of course asked what all that was about. My brother was already awake, but my Father was waiting for me to get up before saying anything

My father is a hindu. The religion is the world's oldest major religion and is a unique combination of culturally led traditions, supersitions & dogma. My Father is a humble man and never imposed the religion on us London born boys (he even sent us to Roman Catholic Schools without blinking).

So he chose words knowing that his audience were in many ways removed from his beliefs, neither familiar nor overly skeptical

He told us that according to Hindu belief, when animals die, they dont know that they have passed on. Humans know that they have died, so, unless they have 'unfinished' business, they dont hang about. But pets want to come back into the home that they have lived in for years.

As they are on the outside, they call out to someone in the family in a human voice that this person will recognise in the hope that they will let them in.

I went quite cold, and my Brother was so unnerved, his face actually went completely blank

My Father then said that he had sat facing the garden and prayed for our pet dog and told her to go in peace.

I never questioned my Brother about it and he did not defend what he said he had heard nor started to fob it off as something imagined

We never spoke about it again.
 
I to believe our first house had the ghost of a little black cat but am not sure what they are,
I lean towards it being a time thing rather than a recording but what ever they are I am sure they exist.
 
If post-death appearance depended on the deceased's self-image, wouldn't that make for a lot of 'fancy dress' ghosts (e.g., in anachronistic or sci-fi garb)?

Only if they dressed up IRL as a matter of course. If ghosts appeared as people imagined how they would like to be seen, they would be recognised a lot less.

Now I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen a ghost of a furry in full garb? If they're a gorilla suit fetishist, might that explain the mystery of Bigfoot? Well, I say "explain"...
 
there is that one from the 50's were a head can be seen behind a man (who is inside a car), i have never found a explanation for that one and its pretty clear
I'm aware of that one...but I thought it had been debunked...?
 
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