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Anonymous

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Annasdottir said:
In that case, why relate it to astrology or zodiacs at all? Both Maltwood and Caine maintained that the Glastonbury Zodiac was an actual representation of the zodiac signs, created by 'the ancients'. Although, to be fair to them both, I can't remember what justification they gave for changing the symbolisms so drastically.

Yes, it is an interesting insight into psychology and mythos. But, if so, what makes seeing 'Zodiacs' in the landscape all that different from, say, seeing Jesus in the clouds?
Well the obvious comment would be to state that as clouds are transitory, they can gather no 'place name' clout, like that the images represented as being the Glastonbury Zodiac figures have.

If you have the book by Caine, you can see all of the place name synchronicities that she discusses, such as the river Tonne making up what looks like a tongue on the "Girt Dog" figure. The tail of this figure, oddly enough, is supposed to border a village called Wagg.
I suppose if a cloud that looked like Jesus appeared in the same spot repeatedly for hundreds of years, and was near the town of Christcloud, you could look at it the same way some would look at the GZ, but otherwise I fear that the analogy made, was one that I don't feel really cuts it.

As an aside, do you think that the zodiac signs have always been represented by the same symbols thoughout time? Because they haven't, I can assure you!
 
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wulfloki said:
If you have the book by Caine, you can see all of the place name synchronicities that she discusses, such as the river Tonne making up what looks like a tongue on the "Girt Dog" figure. The tail of this figure, oddly enough, is supposed to border a village called Wagg.
I don't put too much credence on the place-names similarity, as old placenames often come from dialect words that originally meant something quite different. As an example, take the '-gate' suffix that you can find in several Northern towns - Coppergate in York, for instance. In these cases 'Gate' actually comes from the Scandinavian for 'street', so has nothing whatsoever to do with gates. (Additionally, in that particular example, 'Copper' is derived from 'cooper' - barrel-maker. It was originally where all the barrel-makers plied their trade.) So it's unlikely that 'Tonne' and 'Wagg' had anything to do with tongues or tails, originally.
It's perfectly possible that Mary Caine's perception of the shapes was influenced by the place-names. I don't have her book, but when I read it I was struck by the subjectivity of the shapes she found in the maps. For instance, the square-ended shape of the lion's head could only be achieved by suddenly turning the defining line 90 degrees from a road onto a hedge and thus cutting off an inconveniently angled field.
As an aside, do you think that the zodiac signs have always been represented by the same symbols thoughout time? Because they haven't, I can assure you!

Are you talking about astrological zodiacs or astronomical zodiacs? In Western astrology the Zodiac symbols have always been pretty consistent. But, astronomically, different cultures have always interpreted the visible constellations differently.
 
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Anonymous

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Annasdottir said:
It's perfectly possible that Mary Caine's perception of the shapes was influenced by the place-names. I don't have her book, but when I read it I was struck by the subjectivity of the shapes she found in the maps. For instance, the square-ended shape of the lion's head could only be achieved by suddenly turning the defining line 90 degrees from a road onto a hedge and thus cutting off an inconveniently angled field.
First of all, let me state for the record that I do not take it as a point of fact that the GZ even exists, yet I find myself sliding into some sort of defensive posture on the subject.

That being said, are you sure you read Caine's book? How long ago was it? I looked at her maps and descriptions of the sign LEO, looking for what you suggested about a "forced shape" of the lions head, and could not see how you could make this statement. In your defense, the recon photo is clipped a bit close to the area closest to the 'lion's' jaw, so maybe I am missing what it was that you saw, but if you have the same book that I do, how is it that your picture is different to mine?
By square ended shape of the lion's head, are you referring to the upper jaw area? I find no other part on the so called figure that corresponds to what you are writing about.

Please tell me more of your theory, with more detail. If it in fact does turn out to be correct, I would like to place a note in the Caine book for future reference. I must say though, I think you will have a hard time convincing me of your view without the help of Rynner and his harddrive full of maps.

ps. I refer to the astrology of the ancients as put forth by Manly P. Hall in his "The Secret Teachings of all Ages" when I refer to it at all.
 
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Anonymous

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I TO HAVE HEARD OF THE GLASTONBURY ZODIAC,BUT FOUND IT ALL RATHER TENUOUS.i LIVE IN AN AREA IN THE WEST MIDS WHICH HAS LOADS OF PLACENAMES ENDING IN 'LEY' SUCH AS DUDLEY, BRIERLEY, CRADLEY, WARLEY, ROWLEY. i WONDERRED IF ANYONE HAD EVER DELVED INTO THIS AND DRAWN UP SOME KIND OF LINK MAP WITH THE REST OF PLACES IN BRITAIN ENDING IN 'LEY' i WOULD BE MOST INTERESTED AND IF NOT ,I'LL JUST HAVE TO DO IT MYSELF!!! :rolleyes:
 
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Anonymous

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Yes, please do Boo! I for one would be very interested in the results.
 
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Anonymous

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Boo: The origin of -ley or -lea in UK place names is simple enough. It comes from the Anglo-Saxon ley which means 'untilled field' or 'clearing'; Barnsley, for instance, was originally Beorn's Ley - Beorn's field. If you plot these place names on a map, you will end up delineating areas colonised by the Saxons.
Wulfloki: Yes, I did read the Caine book - I think it was an original edition that she had had printed privately. But, I admit it was something like 25 years ago and I haven't seen one since. But I do still remember very clearly looking at the squared-off nose of the Leo drawing and thinking to myself: "Look at that line. She cheated!"
I'm not sure what you mean by "my theory" - it's just a thought, a supposition, an observation - not a doctoral thesis. No, I have not read Manley Hall - I know that he was one of the founders of Theosophy, but I've never heard him referred to as an astrologer, or quoted by astrologers.
Anyway, you have the Caine book and I haven't - so I'll concede this one to you. OK?
 

stu neville

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You can assign leys to archaeology: a detailed exposition on both the archaeological and mystical elements of leys check outThe Ley Hunter, which gives a good historical context to the study of leys.
 
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Anonymous

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Yorkshire Zodiac

It's supposed to be around Hebden Bridge, which those of you with local knowledge will find somewhat unsuprising! I spoke some years ago to a very rational Earth Mysteries researcher from the area who said that although he did not believe that it had been deliberately laid out, it did seem fairly credible. How it got there was a mystery to him.

There was a fashion for terrestrial zodiacs in the UK in the 80's, and all sorts of unlikely places were claimed to have one.

I don't believe that any of them were planned and constructed, and I suspect most if not all are a result of the 'pictures in the fire/clouds' mechanism. The fact that prior to Maltwood's 'discovery' there were no legends, folklore or indeed records of such a vast endeavour is suspicious in itself.

I highly recommend a book called 'Ley Lines in Question' - Williamson & Bellamy 1983 - which includes a wonderful landscape bear (symbol of King Arthur, don't you know) which can be found around Glastonbury given sufficient imagination.......
 
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Glastonbury and shrines of the Dark Ages

On Glastonbury, Croagh Patrick and other sites I highly recommend reading Holy Places of the British Isles (A guide to the legendary and sacred sites) by William Anderson (1983, Ebury Press). Has anyone read it?
 

Jerry_B

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First of all, it depends on what is meant by 'holy'. Glastonbury is far more important to Christianity than to any other religion IMHO ;) The Tor itself isn't really important in a religious sense to anyone apart from those of a Christian slant, seeing as it was once a hermitage and a scene of martyrdom. There are more 'pagan' sites not far from the Tor itself (in fact, one, or perhaps two, are visible from the Tor itself.

I grew up near Glastonbury and have been there more times than I can remember. The only time anything 'weird' happened to me there was when there was a huge swarm of flying ants there one summer afternoon about 8 years ago ;)
 

marion

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I've lived in Glastonbury for 18 years and have never really experienced anything out of the ordinary.I go up the Tor at least once a week for dog walking reasons though I do sometimes go up for sunrise on May Day morning too (but thats just for the Morris dancers ;) ) There are often people drumming or fire juggling round the Tor - the juggling is dramatic,the drumming is a plain pain in the ass.
I must admit coming over the Mendips on the side route to Wells (past South Horrington) gives you an amazing powerful view of the Tor and the surrounding hills that makes you realise how special it is.
I have heard allsorts of odd tales mind,just never experienced anything myself. Maybe i'm just used to the weirdness,and I'll realise it when I move away somewhere 'normal'!
and er. half the shops burn strong incense and the place is surrounded by farms!
 

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I've always thought it most amusing, the amount of new age silliness that the Tor and Glastonbury attracts, seeing as the whole locale is steeped in Christian folklore and little else. I'm not sure why people have gotten it into their heads that the place is special in any non-christian way - apart from the whole veeeery tenuous 'Celtic'/'Avalon' link ;)
 

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I guess there had to be some reason the First Christian church in the UK was built here and not somewhere else,in the 1stC. There must have been something special about the place before then - though the original village of Glastonbury where the Roman roads crossed is lost under the Abbey ruins.There were people here before the Romans but I don't know if there is any evidence of ritual activity beyond the usual. The only evidence ,I suppose,is its natural physical presence in the landscape.
'New Age' types were drawn to Glastonbury at least back to the start of the 20thC so it isn't all that new.
 

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I expect one reason was that it was above the flood plain ;) Christian sites don't always have to be built on old pagan sites.
 

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I was having a cigarette up on the Tor a couple of years ago, and it had gone out, and been out for about five minutes. Having lost my lighter, I just pulled on it in vain, and the blasted thing relit itself!!! It was completely out, and had gone cold too, yet lo and behold, there it was, lit again.

We slept in a little orchard that night just down the hill from the Tor, and I must say, it's one of the best night's sleep I've had in my life. There's definitely something nice about Glastonbury :)
 
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Why not excavate Glastonbury Tor?

I've heard many times that Glastonbury Tor is reputed to hold the remains of King Arthur (if he existed) and excalibur.

Why has no-one attempted to excavate or x-ray the tor to see if there are any artefacts there?

Does anyone know who the hill belongs to?
 

AlistairP3

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There's been lots and lots and lots of excavations there, over the years.

I think it's owned and run by English Heritage.
 

Jerry_B

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According to Somerset folklore, Arthur isn't supposed to be buried there, so I'm not sure where you would've heard such a tale. But he's supposed to still live inside Cadbury Castle (a large hillfort), which is not that far from the Tor. As has been noted, the Tor has been excavated lots of times. The Christian archaeology of the site is most prelevant, and it doesn't appear to be a particularly holy site before the arrival of Christianity.
 
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My 2003 AA map shows the tor as a National Trust site.

I hope they don't start excavating again too soon, I'm going there on the 6th June (my birthday) to 'be'.
 

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"Arthur's remains" were allegedly found in Glastonbury Abbey, rather than at the Tor. The Holy Grail was allegedly found in the Chalice Well - I don't know what happened to it if it was, though. I don't think the Tor itself is associated very strongly with it - there is little archaeological evidence of much going on there prior to saxon times, iirc. Very interesting piece about it in Michael Wood's In Search of England.

Also, for grail seekers, In our Time on Radio 4 was about the holy grail a week or so ago. The relevant one isn't in the archive yet, but worth looking out for because it is very interesting.
 
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Arthur's supposed grave is still marked in the Abbey-
here
is a website describing the 'discovery' of the grave and the differing accounts antiquarians over the years have given of it.

You can't dig everywhere, you know- two of the best preseved bits of York's archaeology are thought to lie beneath William the Conqueror's Norman Castle mottes- but you could never get to them, as the mottes are ancient monuments thenselves.
X-rays strong enough to look into solid hills would fry the local population...
you are asking for technology that doesn't yet exist really, something like a neutrino scanner...
sorry, not yet available as far as I know.
 

Jerry_B

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A geo-physical survey could be done, but would be pretty tricky to do on the slopes of the Tor ;) This is kind of like a radar for looking into what's beneath the surface.
 
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X-rays strong enough to look into solid hills would fry the local population...
ROFLMAO. I'm a woman, can I be excused for my technofear?

you are asking for technology that doesn't yet exist really, something like a neutrino scanner...
I was thinking of the thing used to scan the grounds in Cromwell Street :cross eye. I didn't know it could only go to certain depths or density.

I have a book on paranormal about 10 years old. A section on ley lines was interesting. I think it was here that suggested the Tor could be some kind of burial mound for Arthur and numerous treasures. I didn't realised the Tor had been investigated before either. Ignorance all around.
At the very least, you've all stopped me from taking a shovel to the Festival.
 

Breakfastologist

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you've all stopped me from taking a shovel to the Festival.
The festival site is about 10 miles from Glastonbury town, but that's no reason to leave your shovel at home- the opportunity to create a DIY toilet is almost certainly prefereable to those provided...
 

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Originally posted by Breakfast
the opportunity to create a DIY toilet is almost certainly prefereable to those provided...


Are they still as bad as they were in the seventies, one of my least fond memories.:cross eye
 

brianellwood

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most people take the straightforward path to the top of the tor, but there is a spiral path which climbs up around the hill, not always easy to see for all of its way. This is supposed to be the ancient mystical path travelling along which you gain energy etc. Many sacred sites seem to involve spiral or maze patterns. Anyone know anymore about this? As for what is underneath, I can't guess, burials maybe?
 

Jerry_B

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The spiral path isn't detailed on any archaeolgical surveys of the site, so one would guess that it was created by tourists ;)
 
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JerryB said:
The spiral path isn't detailed on any archaeolgical surveys of the site, so one would guess that it was created by tourists ;)
And that diminishes its validity?
 

Jerry_B

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Well, yes - because it's not really an 'ancient' path, otherwise archaeologists would be quick to point it out (as they tend to get excited about such things). As to it being 'mystical' etc., such things have been projected onto the Tor (and to some extent the surrounding land). There are several sites not all that far from the Tor which have more significant pre-Christian religious siginificance than the Tor itself has.
 
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