God On The Brain

[Anonymous]

The Science of Religion

The following is a summary of an article in New Scientist 24/4/2001. I've noticed sme of this research referenced in other threads so I've decided to start a one devoted to it.

The article was entitled "In Search of God" by Bob Holmes and was subtitled 'Are religious feelings just a product of how our brain works?'

Holmes defines one form of religious experience by quoting Einstein

"It is very difficult to explain this feeling to anyone who is completly without it... The individual feels the nothingness of human desires and aims and the sublimity and marvellous order which reveal themselves both in Nature and the world of thought. He looks upon individual existance as a sort of prison and wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole."

He goes on to discuss the work of Andrew Newberg, a neuroscientist at the University of Pennsylvania, who has spent a decade looking a the neurobiology of religion. Newberg outlines the problems of this. "I always get concerned that people will say I'm a religious person who's trying to prove that god exists,or a cynic who's trying to prove that god doesn't exist, but we try to approach it without bias."

One of the areas that Newberg and his partner Eugene d'Aquili studied was the sene of 'oneness with the universe' as described by Einstein. They managed to contact eight skilled meditators and measured brain activity as they achieved a sense of oneness with the world through meditation. On comparing brain activity at this peak state with brain activity at rest they found intense activity in the parts of the brain that regulate attention and in the parietal lobe, where the distinction between self and others originates.

"When you look at people in meditation, they really do turn off their sensations tothe outside world. Sight and sounds don't disturb them anymore. That may be why the parietal lobe gets no input," says Newberg. His arguement is that when deprived of stimulus these centres no longer function normally, the person feeling the boundry between them and others dissolve. And as the spacial and temporal context disappears the person feels a sense of infinate space and eternity.

(I've not finished this yet, I've got to go and do the weekly shopping, so contain you excitement (!) til I get back)

 

[Anonymous]

(I've not finished this yet, I've got to go and do the weekly shopping, so contain you excitement (!) til I get back)

Er ... when the sign says 24 hour shopping, it doesn't mean you've got to stay there for 24 hours!

Have you thought about shopping somewhere closer to home?

Mr Kite

 

[Anonymous]

As an Atheist, I've often considered Religion to be a mental abberation, or a form of mental deformity if you will. I think what we need to ask from these results is whether "a sense of oneness" is a result of some external, supernatural contact, or whether certain brain wave patterns lead to a "sense of oneness". As I see the evidence, and call me a Conspiracist if you will, all we are seeing is a yet undocumented area of human consciousness. Clouding the issue by using even a remote mention of religion takes away its scientific validity for the sake of a few moments of noteriety. For all we know about the brain, we may as well say that Epeleptics are directly communicating with God whilst in a seizure. The burden of proof is on the Religious, not on the Scientist. If someone can prove to me that a particular event must have been caused by their chosen Deity, then I will be the first to kneel at their altar. Until then, I will view any scientific pronouncement in the same light as a 4th Law of Thermodynamics, or a reletivistic QCD....

 

[Anonymous]

I'm back from the longest shop in the world!

The article (New Scientist 24/4/01) continues by discussing the 'emotional charge' that religious experience has for the person who experiences it, the 'feeling of awe and deep significance'.

It discusses the limbic system, the 'emotional brain' situated in the temporal lobes, whic has the function of monitoring experience and labeling especially significant events with an emotional tag that signals their importance. The example given is the sight of your own childs face. Researchers believe that the limbic system is unusually active during intense religious experience, giving everything percieved a special significance. This is why it so difficult to explain these kind of experiences to others that have not had them.

"The contents of the experience - the visual components, the sensory components - are just the same as everyone experiences all the time, instead, the temporolimbic system is stamping these moments as being intensely important to the individual, as being characterised by great joy and harmony. When the experience is reported to someone else, only the contents and the sense that it's diferent can be communicated. The visceral sensation can't." Jeffrey Saver, neurologist, University of California, Los Angeles.

The article points out the 'religious' experiences of people who suffer from epileptic seizures and the fact that Alzheimer's disease
is often marked by a loss of religious interest, tending to cripple the limbic system early on.

It also points out that many of the techniques used in 'active' worship such as ritual, music and meditation affet the limbic system.

The last third of the article discusses is focused on the brains ability to generate 'religious experience'. It discusses Micheal Persinger of Laurentian University, Ontario and his 'ghost hat'.

"Through trial and error and a bit of educated guesswork, he's found that a weak magnetic field - 1 micro tesla, which is roughly that generated by a computer monitor - rotating anticlockwise in a complex pattern about thetemporal lobes will cause four out of five people to feel a spectral presence in the room with them."

Persinger says that context and belief are what shape these experiences into 'religious' ones.

"This is all in the laboratory, so you can imagine what would happen if the person is alone in their bed at night or in a church, where the context is so important." Persinger believes that it not the perception of mystical experience but the interpretation of that experience that truely make the experience religious or mystical. "We fit it into a niche, a pigeonhole. The label that is then used to catagorise the experience will influence how the person remembers it. And that will happen within a few seconds."

The article quotes Ron Barris of American Atheists on the debate between divine vs. mundane causation

"The real common denominator here is brain activity, not anything else. There is nothing to indicate that this is externally imposed or that you are somehow tapping into a devine entity."

A quote from Newberg (see first half of this posting) sums up the opposing view

"We can't say they're wrong. On the other hand, if you're a religious person, it makes sense that the brain can do this, because if there is a God, it makes sense to design the brain so that we can have some sort of interaction. And we can't say that's wrong either. The problem is that all of our experiences are equal, in that they are all in the brain. Our experience of reality, our experience of science, our mystiacal experiences are all in the brain."

(There, finished! What do you folks make of this? I think it covers a lot of ground that is argued over in other threads and defines the debate quite well.)

 

[intaglio]

Lets just get this out of the way why didn't you just highlight, cut and paste? saves a lot of wear on the fingers, honest!

Back to the subject. When they can take, for example, the Pope and disable his limbic system hence producing an athiest pope then I'll be impressed. All to often the "this area of the brain does X" seems to me like an update of phrenology. It frequently ends up as "this area of the brain does X - except when it doesn't". If it proves true all it does is show theres an area of the brain designed for religious experience and stuffs the ball back in the athiests court because then they have to explain why we evolved such.

Mind you it might prove useful in getting people out from under the thumb of cults, if true.

 

[escargot]

God on the Brain

Controversial new research suggests that whether we believe in a God may not just be a matter of free will. Scientists now believe there may be physical differences in the brains of ardent believers.

A relative of mine told me about her BF's strange religious experiences- he would sometimes fall to his knees in a sort of ecstasy surrounded by bright invisible (!) light.
Erm, I said, is any member of his family epileptic?
Turns out his mother is.

I've known about this since the mid-70s when I first worked with epileptic patients. Religious/spiritual experiences were common among them, to the extent of being accepted by staff as evidence that they weren't taking their tablets!

Killed all religious belief, for me, stone dead.

 

[Anonymous]

Additional stuff...

This research was also the topic of Michael Shermer's Skeptic column in the current issue (March 2003) of Scientific American.

In the article he cites research reported in Nature (Sept. 2002) where neuroscientist Olaf Blanke at Geneva University Hospital in Switzerland artificially caused an Out-of-Body experience in a 43 year-old epileptic woman by passing a mild current through part of her temporal lobe (the right angular gyrus).

Shermer also mentions a study by Andrew Newberg of the University of Pennsylvania Medical Centre who wrote in 2001 about brain scans performed on Buddhist monks while they meditated and Franciscan nuns while they prayed that showed abnormally low activity in the posterior superior parietal lobe. This part of the brain appears to provide people with a sense of the location in in physical space: when it is damaged people display difficulty in negotiating their way without colliding with things as they have problems discerning the difference between the body and that which is outside the body.

(Shermer further mentions the December 15, 2001, Lancet which published a Dutch study of NDEs that concluded that these paranormal events are nothing more than neuronal events which, because of circumstances (illness, anaesthetic, trauma etc) the subjects mis-identify as real events, but he doesn't report how the researchers were able to discount the NDEs as real events so categorically. Rightly or wrongly, this lack leads me to wonder if the researchers failed to make a convincing case for dismissing NDEs as real events. Shermer concludes his column with the observation that there is no paranormal or supernatural: only the normal, natural and the everyday, and mysteries yet to be explained. I suspect he failed to appreciate the irony of that statement when he mentioned the Lancet report...)

 

[Anonymous]

I Hear Voices, It's The Clangers! They Have A Message For Ma

Still not very much on why the brain appears to be wired in this way.

Okay, so it seems to be intimately connected to our sense of balance, but what's it for? Any evolutionary scientist worth their salt should be having a really good think about that.

So, the mechanism's delicate and easily damaged, leading to badly tuned, spiritual 'theramin' effects, but what's it really doing when it's working properly?
.........

On another point. Perhaps the design of certain Holy Places (anything from the caves of Lascaux and Stonehenge, to Gothic Cathedrals), is intended to affect and stimulate, the organs of 'God sense?'

Just think, now it's possible for an unscrupulous pastor, or religion to build a 'God Sense' stimulator! :eek!!!!:

 

[oll_lewis]

Killed all religious belief, for me, stone dead.

sorry to hear that.

I've had many religious experiences (eg sudden fealings of euphoria dureing comunion {I drink quite a bit anyway so it's not the alchohol in the wine getting to me b4 someone says that }, answered prayers when the situation has been desperate and a healing in holywell) I don't tend to talk about these experiences here because there are many people on these forums who like to grind axes agaist christians.

Religious faith is a great thing to have under your belt as long as you know about what it is that you belive in and don't blinker yourself by thinking that everyone apart from you is wrong

oh, and I don't suffer from epilepsy or any other mental illness to my knolage nor do any family members. To discount anyone who has religious beleifs as someone of mental ill health is offensive, blinkered, untrue and unscientific, so you should be carefull not to fall into that trap if your personal choice is not to beleive in something.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: God on the Brain

sorry to hear that.

I've had many religious experiences (eg sudden fealings of euphoria dureing comunion {I drink quite a bit anyway so it's not the alchohol in the wine getting to me b4 someone says that }, answered prayers when the situation has been desperate and a healing in holywell) I don't tend to talk about these experiences here because there are many people on these forums who like to grind axes agaist christians.

Religious faith is a great thing to have under your belt as long as you know about what it is that you belive in and don't blinker yourself by thinking that everyone apart from you is wrong

oh, and I don't suffer from epilepsy or any other mental illness to my knolage nor do any family members. To discount anyone who has religious beleifs as someone of mental ill health is offensive, blinkered, untrue and unscientific, so you should be carefull not to fall into that trap if your personal choice is not to beleive in something.

the desire to find an overarching theory to describe all events within a particular catagory is not only unscientific but also unfortean.

It may be true that some religious experences are the result of falty brain chemistry ect. However care should be taken in formulating theories. My maxim on this subject would be: if it explains everything then it's wrong.

And even though I am an athiest and have been for 12 years I, let me asure you, have no axx to grind about christianity. Organised religion perhaps but not christianity or christians.

 

[Anonymous]

Quick thoughts...

Problems over correlation/causation here, as usual when dealing with the relationship between brain and consciousness...

I suppose too that these kinds of reductive 'explanation' of peoples' interior lives are irrelevant to the subject in a lot of ways because they don't address the force of the experience. If I have a mystical encounter with the oneness of all being, what does it mean for me to have some chap with a clipboard telling me that what I've actually just felt is not that at all, but only a burst of activity in a particular bit of the brain? The explanation's got nothing to do with the meaning of the experience; in fact it's trying to imply that it was meaningless. Does it only work with known epileptics? Or are we allowed to discount anyone's religious experiences?

 

[escargot]

What I said was, it killed all religious beliefs for ME stone dead.
I did not pass judgement on the quality of others' beliefs and resent the accusation that I did.

I have had what may be called 'religious' and indeed Christian experiences, including a very odd stigmata-like episode.

Being aware of Christian symbolism through my education and half-hearted Methodist upbringing I saw these experiences as meaningless accidents, whereas some people to whom I have described them were awestruck and even green with envy over my obvious holiness.

 

[Anonymous]

I did not pass judgement on the quality of others' beliefs and resent the accusation that I did.

Fair enough - sorry, I wasn't trying to have a go at you and I'm not terribly religious myself - just thinking aloud, mostly just in reaction to the rather high-handed tone Michael Shermer and his ilk tend to adopt in these situations, as seen in in the article Zygon mentions.

 

[oll_lewis]

What I said was, it killed all religious beliefs for ME stone dead.
I did not pass judgement on the quality of others' beliefs and resent the accusation that I did.

I have had what may be called 'religious' and indeed Christian experiences, including a very odd stigmata-like episode.

Being aware of Christian symbolism through my education and half-hearted Methodist upbringing I saw these experiences as meaningless accidents, whereas some people to whom I have described them were awestruck and even green with envy over my obvious holiness.

and indeed I was offering up a general caveiat.

you do not have to be nessisarily "holy" to have a religious experience, in the book of Danial for example it's claimed that king Belshazzar of babylon saw a hand appear out of nowhere and write on his wall, another example can be found in the book of numbers chapter 22 where the moabite (ie not a jew) profit Balaam's donkey started talking. Now it is up to the idividule weather they belive that those examples happened or nay, but if one dose belive in the validity of a religios experience the bable shows that religious experances are not exclusive to jews, christians and muslims so it is definatly probable that an aithiest coud have such experiences to, an aithiest woud probably explain it differently though.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: I Hear Voices, It's The Clangers! They Have A Message Fo

Originally posted by AndroMan


On another point. Perhaps the design of certain Holy Places (anything from the caves of Lascaux and Stonehenge, to Gothic Cathedrals), is intended to affect and stimulate, the organs of 'God sense?'

What, like the musical resonance you get when underground in Maes How, or the Hypogeum? Or the unsteady feeling you get when you look up underneath the crossing of St Peter's, or the Minster?

Just think, now it's possible for an unscrupulous pastor, or religion to build a 'God Sense' stimulator! :eek!!!!:

Been there!

 

[Timble2]

....so it is definatly probable that an aithiest coud have such experiences to, an aithiest woud probably explain it differently though.

Encounters with extraterrestrials, for example?

 

[escargot]

OK Tomsk, no offence taken really!

I think this is a very interesting subject and was looking forward to hearing Richard Dawkins talk about it last week on TV as per Rynner's reminder.
Looks like it's been shelved until next month because of the TV coverage of the war.

Encounters with extraterrestrials, for example?

-now THERE'S something I can't get me head round!

 

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine related to me a theory that the reason why hymns are sung requiring long, deep breaths is that it effectively causes you to hyperventilate. This in turn affects oxygen flow to the brain and can induce feelings of euphoria and bring on 'visions' which in a holy setting may be interpreted as such.
:gaga:

 

[Anonymous]

A friend of mine related to me a theory that the reason why hymns are sung requiring long, deep breaths is that it effectively causes you to hyperventilate. This in turn affects oxygen flow to the brain and can induce feelings of euphoria and bring on 'visions' which in a holy setting may be interpreted as such.
:gaga:

Is that why opera singers get so fat then? :madeyes:

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: I Hear Voices, It's The Clangers! They Have A Messag

What, like the musical resonance you get when underground in Maes How, or the Hypogeum? Or the unsteady feeling you get when you look up underneath the crossing of St Peter's, or the Minster?

Possibly. What about all those claims about pyramids focussing cosmic energies, too? Maybe to stimulate that particuliar organ? Eh? Eh?

"Just think, now it's possible for an unscrupulous pastor, or religion to build a 'God Sense' stimulator!"

Been there!

Ah. But, this is no longer science fiction speculation. It's well within technological capabilities. It would certainly be one up on Scientology's 'E-Meter.' Just think what somebody like L. Ron Hubbard could have done with a transcendental experience stimulator?

Maybe that's what Dr Willhelm Reich's Orgone Box was really all about?
........

But, what's the God sense organ (or node), for? Is it an earthquake detector, a kind of gyroscopic-stabilisor, a divining rod-like sensor, a pigeon-style direction finder, what? Maybe it's for telepathy?

It's all very well saying that if you stimulate it, or damage it, such and such happens, but when it's working properly what does it actually do? Maybe it really is a direct line to the Divine. Or, at least, to other transdimensional, or Higher realms.

 

[Anonymous]

...just thinking aloud, mostly just in reaction to the rather high-handed tone Michael Shermer and his ilk tend to adopt in these situations, as seen in in the article Zygon mentions.

To be fair, Shermer's usually a lot better than the article I described, and furthermore if he sounds high-handed it'll be because of my description of the column, not because he comes across as high-handed in the column itself. :nonplus:

 

[brianellwood]

quote"A friend of mine related to me a theory that the reason why hymns are sung requiring long, deep breaths is that it effectively causes you to hyperventilate. This in turn affects oxygen flow to the brain and can induce feelings of euphoria "
Alduous Huxley had plenty to say about this years ago....was it in
"the doors of perception...heaven and hell" ? perhaps someone can post the correct info as I no longer have the books to hand. Also on another thread there was discussion about a tv prog in which an intense local magnetic field was used to stimulate these areas of the brain, resulting in feelings of religious euphoria in the subjects - and sometimes experiences of revelations etc.

 

[butterfly27]

Re: Re: Re: I Hear Voices, It's The Clangers! They Have A Me

It's all very well saying that if you stimulate it, or damage it, such and such happens, but when it's working properly what does it actually do? Maybe it really is a direct line to the Divine. Or, at least, to other transdimensional, or Higher realms.

According to
this glossary of terms relating to the brain quote:

Temporal Lobes - There are two temporal lobes, one on each side of the brain located at about the level of the ears. These lobes allow a person to tell one smell from another and one sound from another. They also help in sorting new information and are believed to be responsible for short-term memory.

Right Lobe - Mainly involved in visual memory (i.e., memory for pictures and faces).

Left Lobe - Mainly involved in verbal memory (i.e., memory for words and names). endquote

Hence the research into the possibility of abnormalities in the temporal lobes causing dyslexia or schizophrenia.

Michael Persinger has done much research in applying magnetic fields to the temporal lobe. There's a site here

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I Hear Voices, It's The Clangers! They Have

According to
this glossary of terms relating to the brain quote:

Temporal Lobes - There are two temporal lobes, one on each side of the brain located at about the level of the ears. These lobes allow a person to tell one smell from another and one sound from another. They also help in sorting new information and are believed to be responsible for short-term memory.
...

Michael Persinger has done much research in applying magnetic fields to the temporal lobe. There's a site here

Yes. Fine. But, what's the 'God sense' Organ/node for?

Originally from BBC article on Horizon Programme, 'God On The Brain' and attributed to Prof. VS Ramachandran, University of California:

"What we suggested was that there are certain circuits within the temporal lobes which have been selectively activated in these patients and somehow the activity of these specific neural circuits makes them more prone to religious belief."

 

[Anonymous]

Alduous Huxley had plenty to say about this years ago....was it in
"the doors of perception...heaven and hell" ? perhaps someone can post the correct info as I no longer have the books to hand.

I've no idea of the source, though I suspect it was a bit more obscure than Huxley as this guy used to regularly find books such as "Invisibility: A Practical Guide".

 

[butterfly27]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I Hear Voices, It's The Clangers! They H

Yes. Fine. But, what's the 'God sense' Organ/node for?

In the link I posted earlier, the following information is given. Note that all of the suggested causes are unnatural ones. My interpretation of this is that the so-called "God-organ" is merely a result of abnormal functioning of the temporal lobes and so the question of "What is it for?" becomes academic, IMVHO.

Quote:
According to Persinger the sense of self is in the left hemisphere of the temporal cortex matched by a corresponding sense of self in the right hemisphere of the temporal cortex. When these two hemispheres become disorientated there will be a sense of another self. When the amygdala is also stimulated, emotional feelings will be enhanced causing intense spiritual feelings. See ABC News story about this at http://abcnews.go.com/sections/living/SecondOpinion/.

A number of events can trigger these spiritual or supernatural experiences.

1. Very Stressful events-like a car accident, or surgery.

2. Decrease in oxygen to the brain- like at very high altitudes. A centrifuge can cause out-of-body experiences.

3. Extreme changes in blood sugar levels.

4. Fasting

5. Many hours of Sleeplessness.

6. Temporal lobe seizures

7. Electromagnetic disturbances in the earth

8. Drugs

9. Trances from repetitive acts like chanting or dancing, meditation.

 

[Anonymous]

The best book on zen I have, Zen Training by Katsuki Sekida, says breathing is at the very heart of zen sitting practice and the altered states it creates. To do the job, as I recall, breathing has to be regular and deep, with a certain tension in the abdomen to slow and regulate the breath - particularly when breathing out. It claims this tension in the tanden (couple of fingers beneath the belly button) is necessary for spiritual concentration. The kind of breathing that results is deep but unnaturally slow in terms of cycles per minute, and calms the mind at the very least. (That is, it isn't hyperventilation). Singing's obviously done with focus on the outbreaths, and one of the most basic bits of singing training is restraining the lungs so you don't sing breathily, but can hold a steady tone for as long as possible. I never really mastered that, but presumably it's also done with a bit of springy tension in the abdomen and diaphragm. Do hymn singers experience a zen-like state?

Zygon - I agree that Michael Shermer is usually an entertaining and thoughtful writer, and the way he deals with various holocaust deniers in particular is a joy to behold. I just find it a little unfathomable that he seems to have decided the best way to spend his time is banging on about exactly the same sort of stuff that Carl Sagan and Martin Gardner have already dealt with perfectly well. (This is a general criticism, not one of this particular article, which is pretty interesting.) That and the fact he makes these kinds of statement (from said article):

"In reality, all experience is mediated by the brain... What we experience is what philosophers call qualia, or subjective states of thoughts and feelings that arise from a concatenation of neural events."

as if he'd just done the experiments himself to settle the matter... Ah well - each to his own.

 

[Anonymous]

so it is definatly probable that an aithiest coud have such experiences to, an aithiest woud probably explain it differently though.

And indeed they do. Recently in meditating on images (rather than the 'emptying your mind' type meditation) I experenced fealings of euphoria and moving beyond the self. I put it down to brain activity.

Perhaps I will start a thread on the problems inherent in belief, even in Athiesim. Should be fun...

 

[Anonymous]

How about another possible theory: that people whose "god-lobe" is active and susceptible to stimulae as listed above are the healthy, properly functioning people and those of us who don't see visions of God, angels, ETs or ABCs are the ones who are sick/damaged or malfunctioning (and I include myself, although I have had OOBEs) ? Statistical evidence would support this theory too, because although on this message board skeptics would seem to outnumber believers, in the population at large I would estimate that people with strong beliefs outnumber non-believers. And a high percentage of believers have had "mystical experiences".

Also it makes sense that a very high level of sensitivity that could be influenced by blood sugar irregularities and the like would be a factor - its the numb bozos who can't see God.

 

[Anonymous]

its the numb bozos who can't see God.

Now you've made me sad

Interesting theory however. Is religious belief then an evelutional nasesity?