GodHatesAmerica.com / Westboro Baptist Church

[squarepeg1]

Thank you.
They did answer my questions and with only a somewhat slightly insulting tone.

my e-mail:
A few years ago, I began studying physics, and in particular quantum
physics
and trying to understand what that was all about. Through an odd,
rather
convoluted path, physics has brought me back around to God. What has
been
nagging at me is this: The Bible is subject to interpretation by
all-to-fallible humans. How do you know that the humans who translated
it
didn't translate it to suit their own agendas? How do you know that
this is
the true word of God and not something that has been twisted around
(rather
like that game they have you play in school where one person starts a
sentence at one side of the room, whispers it to the person behind who
passes it on until it gets to the end of the room and is not at all
like
what it started out as)? What if the bible I've got is an end of the
room
bible and not a start of the room bible? How would I know?

Also, what version of the bible do you recommend I read? The one I
have has
things cut out of it. I do have a bit of a problem with God beginning
His
sentences with "Dude..."

The reply:
Here are two verses that can answer your question perfectly.
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is
of
any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time
by
the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the
Holy
Ghost.
The Bible is NOT subject to any private interpretation by fallible
humans.
The Bible was written by humans, but God caused them to write it. He
gave
them the words through the Holy Ghost. Do you actually think that it
is at
all possible that an all-powerful and sovereign God can't keep His
scriptures from being altered and twisted?

The best Bible for you to read is King James Bible 1611.

Thanks for writing. You should read the Bible instead of trying to
disprove
it, and then you should go to www.Godhatesfags.com,
www.Godhatesamerica.com,
and www.priestsrapeboys.com.

Didn't King James change the bible to suit himself?

 

[GNC]

Personality-led documentary makers are running out of ideas, because next week, Channel 4 on Thursday that paragon of sensitivity Keith Allen meets this lot. I think they've had enough publicity, so I'll give this one a miss.

 

[andrew1461]

I had a very interesting heated discussion with someone I worked with once and all I asked him was this –

If god knows everything and created everything then how come we find dinosaur bones and fossils dating back millions of years and why is their NO reference to them in the bible since god made all creatures. :lol:

He replied by saying that dinosaur bones are a creation of the Devil put their to sway us from the bibles teachings :shock:

My reply was –

If the devil did put them their then god would have known about it and would have sent the Holy Ghost down to get someone to write another chapter or even a flier to hand out outside Tesco’s.

To which I think he got the hump and stormed off saying something like I’m going to hell

I think that god, Politian’s and world leaders have a lot in common – they all leave out bits the don’t want us to know and are a bit vague when it suits their needs

 

[dr_wu]

Andrew,
I think it's safe to say that many of us have had similar conversations with Fundamentalists.
I once had a Pastor from a local fundie group work for me as office help. We used to discuss these things all the time and to his credit he would often say he didn't know the answer to some of my questions.
I gave him some questions for the head pastor from our local Fundie College to answer...they were:
-If we are all descended from Adam and Eve doesn't that mean there was incest involved in the beginning?
-Why are there 4 distinct human subtypes, Caucasian, Oriental, Indian, and African if we are all from the same genetic stock of Adam and Eve?
-What was the purpose of dinosaurs in God's plan for man?
-Why did God feel it was necessary to have over 40,000 species of beetles on the planet?

I never received an answer for them and the Pastor who worked for me eventually moved out of the area. Perhaps the head pastor of the college thought I was being insincere.

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

Andrew,
I think it's safe to say that many of us have had similar conversations with Fundamentalists.
I once had a Pastor from a local fundie group work for me as office help. We used to discuss these things all the time and to his credit he would often say he didn't know the answer to some of my questions.
I gave him some questions for the head pastor from our local Fundie College to answer...they were:
-If we are all descended from Adam and Eve doesn't that mean there was incest involved in the beginning?
-Why are there 4 distinct human subtypes, Caucasian, Oriental, Indian, and African if we are all from the same genetic stock of Adam and Eve?
-What was the purpose of dinosaurs in God's plan for man?
-Why did God feel it was necessary to have over 40,000 species of beetles on the planet?

I never received an answer for them and the Pastor who worked for me eventually moved out of the area. Perhaps the head pastor of the college thought I was being insincere.

The thing is, though, that all those questions could be easily answered with 'we don't understand God's plan in its entirety' which requires no recourse to science or logic. The conceptualisation of the Judaeo-Christian God neccessarily views those branches of reasoning as being subject to the will of a phenomenon which operates outside science and logic. Whilst its extremely rare for anyone to come to God through scientific reasoning it's also more rare than one would expcect that science will actually shake the faith of anyone who has already accepted the literal truth of the Bible (partially because that belief does not have logic or science as its basis).

 

[uair01]

The equally ancient Gnostic texts are IMO, just as valid as anything in the bible, and more fun to read.

I'm sorry - but believing that the cosmos was created by a B-grade sub-god is not my idea of "fun". Especially because it fits the depressing modern cosmologies with that evil "dark energy" and "eternal accelerating expansion"

And AFAIK the first gospels are from 60-90 AD and many gnostic texts from later dates. And certainly all gnostics recognize the gospels as basic reference works. (I can go and search for references if you insist ...)

And just a loose thought - at the moment I'm reading the monograph on Thomas Aquinas by Chesterton. I have my reservations about Chesterton's brand of orthodoxy, but I believe that if we had a Thomist on this forum he would be able to answer most of our questions and settle this discussion once and for all

 

[uair01]

Re: GodHatesAmerica.com

From those fun bunnies who brought you GodHatesFags.com and GodHatesSweden.com - the Westboro Baptist Church brings you: www.godhatesamerica.com

Oh, but it's not only the protestant fundies that go to those extremes.

I once found an orthodox catholic website that was highly critical of the "godless attitudes of pope JP II" because he was getting too friendly with other (read: pagan) religions. I'll try to find that link again ...

 

[dr_wu]

Ted said: The thing is, though, that all those questions could be easily answered with 'we don't understand God's plan in its entirety' which requires no recourse to science or logic.

Yep....which is why I don't bother to discuss religion with Fundamentalists anymore.
To quote an old Irish Proverb:
"Never try to teach a pig to sing . You'll just waste your time and annoy the pig.'

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

To quote an old Irish Proverb:
"Never try to teach a pig to sing . You'll just waste your time and annoy the pig.'

Well that's another hobby smashed between the rocks of possibility. I should stick to restoring vintage cars.

Ps Anybody want to buy a pig? It can sort of whistle.

 

[ted_bloody_maul]

Father Awarded Millions for Funeral Protest

BALTIMORE (AP) -- The father of a fallen Marine was awarded nearly $11 million Wednesday in damages by a jury that found leaders of a fundamentalist church had invaded the family's privacy and inflicted emotional distress when they picketed the Marine's funeral.

The jury first awarded $2.9 million in compensatory damages. It returned later in the afternoon with its decision to award $6 million in punitive damages for invasion of privacy and $2 million for causing emotional distress to the Marine's father, Albert Snyder of York, Pa.

Snyder sued the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church for unspecified monetary damages after members staged a demonstration at the March 2006 funeral of his son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, who was killed in Iraq.

continues

Link*

*EDIT: Link shortened by WJ

 

[WhistlingJack]

Church plans to protest Ledger's memorial

Church plans to protest Ledger's memorial

Actor's role in 'Brokeback' calls 'God a liar,' radical group claims

By Courtney Hazlett

The Scoop

updated 12:00 a.m. ET Jan. 24, 2008

The radical Baptist church known for picketing the funerals of American soldiers who lost their lives in Iraq has announced that they intend to protest Heath Ledger's stateside memorial service because he played a gay character in Brokeback Mountain,

"You cannot live in defiance of God. He (Ledger) got on that big screen with a big, fat message: God is a liar and it's OK to be gay," said Shirley Phelps in a statement sent out by the Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro Baptist Church.

The only compelling reason to ignore Westboro Baptist's reprehensible intentions is that highlighting the vast inappropriateness of their thoughts and actions only brings the church more publicity. However, if the members of Westboro Baptist get to speak their minds, every individual who feels that this is an affront to most basic standards of human ethics should be able to as well.

"Wow, that should make his family feel great," one person close to Ledger said angrily in response to the announcement. "I seriously don't understand what is wrong with people. This is the last thing his family needs."

The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) told me, "We sincerely hope that Heath Ledger is laid to rest and his family is allowed to grieve in a private and peaceful ceremony."

On Jan. 22, GLAAD said that "Heath Ledger will forever be remembered for his groundbreaking role as Ennis del Mar in Brokeback Mountain. His powerful portrayal changed hearts and minds in immeasurable ways." Those close to Ledger agree. But moreover, those close to him want Ledger to be remembered as a man who loved his family and appreciated the career he'd had.

To be fair, the people of the Westboro Baptist Church aren't the only ones displaying poor taste. Fox News' John Gibson on Jan. 22 opened his radio show with funeral music and mocked a signature line from Brokeback, saying, "Well, he found out how to quit you." (When Gibson was contacted to explain his comments, he declined.)

Enough is enough. It's time to move past personal opinion and far-right-wing reactionaries and at the very least, show respect for a family that's coping with a terrible loss.

This column will begin moving forward Friday, but the impact of a Heath Ledger — a great actor, respected friend and doting dad — will not be forgotten.

© 2008 Microsoft

 

[OldTimeRadio]

I had a very interesting heated discussion with someone I worked with once and all I asked him was this –

If god knows everything and created everything then how come we find dinosaur bones and fossils dating back millions of years and why is their NO reference to them in the bible since god made all creatures. :lol:

The Bible doesn't mention kangaroos or opossums either. It was never intended to be a one-volume edition of the Internet.

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Re: GodHatesAmerica.com

I once found an orthodox catholic website that was highly critical of the "godless attitudes of pope JP II" because he was getting too friendly with other (read: pagan) religions.

You've got me really curious. If a supposedly Catholic website condemns the head of that very Church as "godless," why do you consider it "orthodox"?

 

[OldTimeRadio]

If we are all descended from Adam and Eve doesn't that mean there was incest involved in the beginning?

That was standard Christian teaching for centuries.

What was the purpose of dinosaurs in God's plan for man?

Gee, I dunno. Did somebody claim there was one?

Why did God feel it was necessary to have over 40,000 species of beetles on the planet?

God likes beetles?

 

[feen5]

[/quote]Why did God feel it was necessary to have over 40,000 species of beetles on the planet?

Its a little more than 40,000 i'm afraid, actually its a lot more than 40,000. Conservative estimates suggest that there could be over a million species of the little critters. And why wouldn't God want loads of them, they are incredibly useful and beautiful things, in fact without them the whole biosphere would be much poorer. I'm with you Old Time in fact i'd like to see more beetles and less religous maniacs like the sick f*cks who are picketing peoples funerals.

 

[Zilch5]

I had a very interesting heated discussion with someone I worked with once and all I asked him was this –

If god knows everything and created everything then how come we find dinosaur bones and fossils dating back millions of years and why is their NO reference to them in the bible since god made all creatures. :lol:

The Bible doesn't mention kangaroos or opossums either. It was never intended to be a one-volume edition of the Internet.

That's one I like to use for "discussions" with Fundies - just how did Noah manage to travel to Australia to get one of each Marsupial and other critters that live only down here? And if he released them on Mt Ararat, how come none of these are now living in the Middle East or Europe? :?:

You'll never get a decent answer from them for this one.

 

[barfing_pumpkin]

That's one I like to use for "discussions" with Fundies - just how did Noah manage to travel to Australia to get one of each Marsupial and other critters that live only down here? And if he released them on Mt Ararat, how come none of these are now living in the Middle East or Europe?

I like the fact that god probably had to order Noah to get some marine iguanas from the Galapagos islands. "That'll put the faith of of future peoples to the test, I can tell you!"

(and in case any wag points out that a marine iguana could survive the deluge, please note that said animal can only survive for a limited time in the sea - half an hour at the most)

 

[uair01]

The Bible doesn't mention kangaroos or opossums either. It was never intended to be a one-volume edition of the Internet.

And strangely enough ... neither does it mention cats, not even one time.

 

[markbellis]

The Bible doesn't mention kangaroos or opossums either. It was never intended to be a one-volume edition of the Internet.

And strangely enough ... neither does it mention cats, not even one time.

I asked my Greek professor about some names for cats and he told me the ancient Greeks didn't have them - they used ferrets to keep down mice. Funny when you think they were domesticated in Egypt and the Vikings kept them on board the longboats to stop mice and rats from eating the leather fittings.

 

[OneWingedBird]

Louis Theroux was back with the Phelps clan tonight.

:shock: I knew they were nutty but :shock: :shock: it's almost like some sort of attempt at born-again shock art but without any realisation.

and was it my imagination, or did one of the banners on the counter protest say "Drink the Kool Aid" :lol:

 

[Spookdaddy]

Louis Theroux was back with the Phelps clan tonight.

:shock: I knew they were nutty but :shock: :shock: it's almost like some sort of attempt at born-again shock art but without any realisation...

I haven't had a TV for years but I recently tracked down the first Theroux/Phelps documentary, and a couple of other related items, on Youtube.

I'd be interested in seeing a psychiatric evaluation of these people - whereas the children and some of the adult congregation appear to exist in some kind of permanently stunned state, Shirley Phelps-Roper appears to me to be very seriously ill. And, I'd bet a bag of toffees that Fred Phelps was your classic overcompensating repressed homosexual.

To be honest, the attention they've been given is in inverse proportion to the miniscule size of their congregation and one can only assume that this has exacerbated their messianic tendencies and created an ongoing reason for their continued revolting behaviour at the funerals of military personnel.

Still, I can't help but be fascinated.

 

[Anome]

I've posted this before, but it bears posting again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF5mfG0vO8o

I think more people should follow Charles Firth's lead there. The more uncomfortable we make the WBC feel, the less likely they are to turn up where they can be embarrassed.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I was reading about Nate Phelps, one of the oldest sons of Fred Phelps.
On his website, he tells the story of how he left home on the evening of his 18th birthday, to get away from the abuse he suffered at the hands of his father.
He is diametrically opposed to his father, and is in fact an outspoken LGBT supporter.

I agree with Spookdaddy - I think both Fred Phelps and his daughter Shirley may well be mentally ill, and Fred shows all the signs of someone who is gay, but severely repressed to the point of instability.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Apart from the fact that the WBC appear to have completely eschewed fundamental Christian ideas like repentance and forgiveness* - not to mention the maxim, 'hate the sin, not the sinner' - which are still common in even the most tub-thumping of congregations, there is something else about their behaviour which I wasn't quite able to put my finger on until I re-watched a couple of items last night.

The congregation, very obviously, use street-level language (with absolute relish) to describe homosexuals. Not only this but they resort to extremely graphic language to describe the homosexual act and the human body in relation to that act. In every instance I've seen of this the graphic nature of the response, and the enthusiasm involved, is ridiculously out of proportion to the stimulus that has inspired that particular tirade. Look at the expression on Shirley Phelps-Roper's face (to use her as an obvious example) when she launches into one of these diatribes - utter joy.

I think these people actually enjoy the homosexual act that they claim so much to abhor - admittedly by a remove or two, but enjoyment nonetheless.

*(Not that I'm saying homosexuals need to repent or be forgiven.)

Edited to make sense.

 

[Mythopoeika]

They seem to have no problem with swearing and displaying 'un-Christian' behaviour, that's for sure.

I have met a few Bible-thumpers in my time (being raised in a Baptist family), but none of them displayed such a warped attitude as this.
I'm wondering if the Church is just a front for their anger, and it allows them to get tax concessions. As Fred Phelps is a disbarred lawyer (how the heck did that moron qualify as a lawyer?), he found an alternative way of earning a living - doing something that he loved. Being an obnoxious git, that is.

Also, I think most of the congregation and Fred's family are not that bright, and are easily led.

 

[Themadwatcher]

Westboro Baptist Church

(Please forgive my crude mock-up of a post. I am still finding my feet.)

http://newsflavor.com/opinions/the-whit ... ntichrist/

Does anybody else find the Phelps' family amazingly interesting? I by no means mean their views are interesting to me (they're amazingly horrible and insensitive!) - But the views that they share with their community and all the time with a nice smile and a very polite and calm manner.

I would suggest they are a more... intense breed of Quaker (only they hate getting naked... and everybody) apparently now though, they have summarized that Obama (yup, the President Obama) is the anti-Christ and that, provided God doesn’t 'tarry, the end of days will soon be upon us.

They decided that Obama was indeed the anti-Christ when they saw him on TV looking and acting just like the anti-Christ.

Do you think they get tax exempt status now? When is a Religious community no longer a Religious Community? When they decide against the rest of the world that it is (probably) going to end soon?
I would say so - it screams more like a cult now than it does a Religion.

Is the line really that fine? Of course, we cannot define normal no matter how hard we try, but this just isn’t normal by comparison... right?
I look at Fred Phelp's and I dont see a charismatic leader; I see a very tired old man who ruled his wife and children with a belt buckle to the back and a polite smile why doing it; so how does something like the Westboro Baptist Church happen?

 

[Cultjunky]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church

Do you think they get tax exempt status now? When is a Religious community no longer a Religious Community? When they decide against the rest of the world that it is (probably) going to end soon?
I would say so - it screams more like a cult now than it does a Religion.

I think that US tax law on such matters is based on Ninian Smarts analysis of what constitutes a religion. Basically, to qualify as a religion, Smart posits that there are certain things that a religion must have, such as centralised place of worship, a figurehead, or even that participants have a sense of community. There's about 9 qualifying aspects IIRC, and you only need to have one of them. Hence, Paganism qualifies by virtue of specific sites used for worship, Christianity as having a figurehead, and Old Trafford, as a place where participants feel a sense of community.

 

[Yithian]

I think Smart's analysis describes several qualities that all religions possess to varying degrees. You have to score all hits to qualify - not just one.

Smart’s sevenfold scheme of study:

Doctrinal
Mythological
Ethical
Ritual
Experiential
Institutional
Material (added in his 1998 text)

Note: Smart categorized 1-3 as para-historical and 4-6 as historical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninian_Sma ... f_religion

 

[OldTimeRadio]

Fred Phelps is a disbarred lawyer (how the heck did that moron qualify as a lawyer?.

It was an absolutely staggering surprise to me when I first learned this, but Fred Phelps was at one time one of the leading Civil Rights (!!) attorneys in the American Midwest and was then described as "the man who integrated Kansas."

What in hell happened?

 

[Spookdaddy]

Being discussed at the moment on the GodHatesAmerica.com thread.