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Green Children Of Woolpit (And Maybe Spain)

Anybody still tempted to take the 1887 story the least bit seriously might care to explain to the rest of us how the leading resident of Woolpit was "Richard de Calne" whilst his equivalent in Spain 700 years later was "Ricardo da Calno."

If you can swallow that you could safely eat my cooking.
 
Just listened to a very interesting podcast on the Green Children of Woolpit. Can't say I agree with all of it, but there were some theories and ideas from Duncan Lunan that I'd never heard discussed before. Worth a listen, in my opinion.

Those interested can get the podcast here.
 
Was there a similar thing in the USA and it was put down to a lack of a vitamin or mineral?
 
I've heard the Radio Four programme several times and wondered to myself if their 'land without sun' had been a copper mine, and they'd been working as forced labour from sun up to sundown. Would prolonged exposure to copper ores turn the skin greenish, as copper jewellery does on localised prolonged wearing?

It's a fascinating story nonetheless!
 
Hmm one thing occurs to me when reading Ralph's account as related by Thomas Keightley : EXTRA: Ralph of Coggeshall's Account of the Green Children | Anomalies: the Strange & Unexplained (anomalyinfo.com)
Namely... Ralph seemed to treat the green skin tinge as unnatural. The boy was described as dying of whatever illness, and the girl eventually recovered. It's hard to be sure but is it possible Ralph means to imply that the people who found the children thought them to be unwell?

William of Newburgh as it was presented in 1856 by Joseph Stevenson: EXTRA: William of Newburgh's Account of the Green Children | Anomalies: the Strange & Unexplained (anomalyinfo.com)
His doesn't seem to consider the odd color a sickness and seems to describe them as healthy.... until the boy dies anyways.

This is one of those weird things where separating signal from noise is pretty hard. There's two accounts that are reasonably original... and all others are mostly just rehashes of those. But when you filter out all the spurious details.... It's not that weird.... if not for the green skin it'd likely have been an unimportant historical footnote lost to time. Also... the BEST sources are third or fourth hand data at best. Ralph's version is mostly what Sir Richard de Calne told him about it. William seems to have collected and compiled accounts. But we don't have any of those, merely the syncretized version that he wrote down after fusing the many accounts into a single narrative. But certain parts, especially some of the more fantastical bits, might be the result of a game of telephone, and we only have access to the versions that have survived, and not the original accounts.

"Saint Martin's Land"
There IS a place named "Fornham Saint Martin" that is close enough(six miles) that a pair of sickly preteens could have walked from there to Woolpit. Also this incident seems to have happened during the warmer part of the year. It's mentioned that the people of Woolpit were harvesting crops including beans, thus probably some time in summer or early fall.

"lack of sunlight"
It's important to distinguish between the alien-ness of direct sunlight and the idea that they'd never seen sun before. It's that they'd never felt direct sunlight before. Which is odd given that the girl claims they'd been tasked with watching farm animals, presumably in a field. But by the same token she was said to have also claimed to have seen brightly lit places on the horizon. This feels like one of those things where it's possible she simply described things in an odd way and the people hearing misinterpreted them? One description of it is that it was a "luminous" land on the other side of a river? This is where the telephone thing comes in. We don't know WHAT she said. All we know is how people interpreted it years later.

"green skin"
first, the actual account is green "tinged" skin. So the popular depiction of them as fully green? NOPE! Also in the 1100s... the term Hypochromic anemia - Wikipedia ]Chlorosis[/url] hadn't been invented yet and thus if people saw it they'd have no idea what it was. Given their odd dietary choices it's possible they simply had malnutrition and inadequate B6 in their diets.... which neatly squares with how BOTH sources observed that they changed color after learning to eat real food. IE the B6 deficiency was corrected and the Chlorosis disappeared. Why would they have it?" well the scant details the girl gave about her life in her former home... suggests they were poor peasants and probably had little to eat.

BUT.... B6 deficiency would be more likely CURED by eating beans than CAUSED by it... and the children were noted to have beans as their favorite food when first found. We don't know a whole lot about what else they ate before arriving in Woolpit. Sooo, hard to say. The accounts list only beans as a food they were willing to eat when found. Literally every other food the people of Woolpit tried to get them to eat was rejected until a week or so later when they started eating other foods. It's conceivable that they had a craving for beans because they needed them, but it seems odd they'd refuse everything else. I do have to wonder if this part was exaggerated by retelling it. It's mentioned they initially only ate FRESH beans which seems unlikely as a year round food source as beans are popular as food because of how easy they are to store in dried form.

It's also notable that while they recognized the bean plant as a food source, they didn't know how to harvest the beans from the plant. Which... kinda makes sense if the children were too young for their parents to have tried teaching them to cook.

"clothing and language"
These are less odd when you realize that England used to have more linguistic diversity than today. Today there's several languages(including Welsh, Scottish, Irish, Flemish) in the UK OTHER than English, and it used to be more so. Also neither source claims the language barrier lasted long. Some have speculated that it wasn't actually a fully distinct language they spoke but more an exotic dialect.
The weird clothing isn't even mentioned in Ralph's version, and is barely even mentioned in William's. Even then it's merely "unfamiliar" and seemingly not particularly interesting.

It's also interesting that this case is hard to date. Both sources seem to have been recorded decades after the fact. Neither actually gives the date it happened. It would have to be the mid to late 1100s given the way it's described. Brian Haughton.com Mystery of the Green Children of Woolpit by Brian Haughton (brian-haughton.com) ]One analysis[/url] suggests that the vague date in William's version might be wrong and guesswork on William's part. William listed it as having taken place during the reign of King Steven. However, if that was the case one might expect it to appear in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles(technically 9 different but similar documents) which it doesn't. But this could simply be that the various chroniclers hadn't heard of it while writing the chronicles. However, it could also mean that it happened after the death of King Steven in 1154. No version of the chronicle extends past that date, and several don't cover any of King Steven's reign. Both William and Ralph wrote their chronicles decades after the death of King Steven.

Interesting footnote: why was there never a King Steven II? Hard to say... I'm guessing because none of his descendants was part of the royal family. He fought a civil war with the man who would later become King Henry II. Oh, also he was born in France and was nephew to Henry I. Henry's heir William Adelin died before he was able to claim the throne and the line of succession went into turmoil. The succession should have passed to Empress Matilda(Henry I's daughter), but but she lived in France and wasn't able to even go to England to be coronated. Which created an opening for Steven to exercise claim to the throne. He seemingly tried to be a good king despite his power grabbing, but multiple people in power wanted to dethrone him and used military force to try to do so. Eventually Steven agreed that instead of handing rule to his own heir... he'd turn over rule to Henry II(Empress Matilda's son).

And the Woolpit incident happened either during this fiasco or shortly after it. One question of course is why the children, especially the girl who seemingly lived long enough to produce children of her own, never tried finding their parents... well it's possible their parents died in that mess. Also if their parents were peasants... well... good luck finding them even if you did look. Also some people think they were Flemish and Henry II wasn't nice to the Flemish. Why? Because Steven had hired Flemish mercenaries to augment his military. Was Henry II trying to get rid of ALL of the Flemish or just the mercs? I have no way to know. But it's interesting to note that one of the major massacres of Flemish by Henry II was near Fornham Saint Martin.... not easy walking distance, but close enough to travel on foot from there to Woolpit.

yeah this set of conclusions is pretty similar to what Paul Harris had to say... but after you add in historical context, it does make sense.
 
I'm wondering whether the 'greenish pallor' that the children exhibited may have been extreme paleness of skin. To twelfth century working people, who were likely outdoors from dawn to dusk all year round, a pair of children who may have been kept in near darkness (or certainly without sunlight) for any length of time, very pale skin would seem very odd, and could be construed as 'greenish' (ask anyone who's been poorly for any length of time!)
 
Pale sickly kids would be a rather grim shade.

But its hard to believe that the people who found them would see such a shade as exceptional. There must have been many sickly malnourished people around.
 
Pale sickly kids would be a rather grim shade.

But its hard to believe that the people who found them would see such a shade as exceptional. There must have been many sickly malnourished people around.
The idea is that it was an unusual form of being sickly. If it was Hypochromic Anemia, it would need to be pretty severe to cause their skin to turn that shade. It's likely the boy died as a result of it too.
 
This is a good article although I think he wrongly dismisses jaundice as it can appear greenish in color.

https://medium.com/the-mysterious-m...s-the-green-children-of-woolpit-3fdd9ee38322\

I always think the case was possibly due to 3 things. A toxic reaction due to contact with toxic elements or a toxic reaction to something in their diet or a genetic condition.

Firstly a toxic reaction due to contact with a toxic element?

There are no Lead or Copper mines in Suffolk as far as I'm aware. If it was set in Wales I'd say this was a possibility. However many sources cite they were believed to be Flemish and possibly children of Flemish Dyers. Dyers would have been in contact with some mordants that could be toxic, such as Chromium or Tin but it is unlikely they would exhibit green jaundice.

https://joybileefarm.com/are-natura...usion-about-chemical-dyes-and-metal-mordants/



Toxic diet?

The story goes they would only eat. Fava/Broad Beans. As Jessee in the top article states.

"Favism (G6PD deficiency) is a hereditary disorder involving an allergic reaction to the fava bean. Those susceptible to it can develop hemolytic anemia by eating the beans or even by exposure to the pollen. Symptoms can include paleness or yellowing of the skin (jaundice). But no green. Once again, the symptoms just don’t match up.

One must also consider: Why, if the children had been living on beans for long enough to develop hemolytic anemia, could they not recognize that the edible beans are found in the pods and not the stalk of the plant?

While it’s not unlikely that the Childrens’ coloration was caused by some sort of medical condition, it is not immediately clear what sort of condition it was. None of the candidates put forth so far seem to fit."


I disagree with this. The link between skin pigmentation and their diet of broad beans is way too much of a coincidence. If it was Favism and they could only eat broad beans this would have eventually lead to liver disorders such as cholestasis and haemolysis. I think the boy's liver was far too damaged, the girl's not so much and as the liver does was able to repair itself.

Green Jaundice is a horribly understudied condition and it took me a while to find anything as most studies are behind a paywall.

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00604039/document


https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.n...5GqU8MQjbg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1478-3231.2009.02029.x

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3592938/

Genetic?

Favism and Glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6-phosphate_dehydrogenase_deficiency

https://www.botanical-online.com/en/food/fava-bean-toxicity#:~:text=Fava beans can be very,breakage of the blood cells.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose-6-phosphate_dehydrogenase_deficiency

As I said there is way too much of a coincidence. The situation fits the picture quite well
 
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Pale sickly kids would be a rather grim shade.

But its hard to believe that the people who found them would see such a shade as exceptional. There must have been many sickly malnourished people around.
They will have seen many sickly people, I have no doubt. But how many sickly people who haven't seen daylight would they have encountered? These children could have been the result of child cruelty (or possibly one of those old tales of 'woman marries man who has no idea she already has children' could be true?) They could have been kept in confinement and only allowed out after dark.
 
Ok, how about this scenario?

Dyers kids have a humorous accident; after everyone has a good laugh, its pointed out that they have ruined a full batch of valuable dye, and they are to scram until they regain their natural shade, thank you.

Newly recoloured kids go into exile; and are found loose at the edge of the cultivated lands, their strange appearance gets them much attention, which they quite enjoy, and so they never go home or really explain their real predicament.


A silly story but is it unrealistic?
 
This is a good article although I think he wrongly dismisses jaundice as it can appear greenish in color. ...

I agree with this. In my youth I was acquainted with a green woman over a period of years.

When I was a child - up through my teen years - there was a local woman who made a living doing house cleaning. She was regularly hired by my family for spring cleaning at the family 'compound' (5 houses clustered together), so I saw her on at least an annual basis, sometimes for multiple days at a stretch. She was a widow of indeterminate age whose features hinted at Native American or possibly Mediterranean ancestry. Though thin and somewhat hunched-over with wrinkled leathery skin she was remarkably active and worked constantly the entire day.

I would characterize her skin tone as an 'olive complexion', but with a literally 'olive' tint. Her skin's undertone was a uniform goldish-green (as contrasted with a greenish-tinged gold or yellow), quite similar to the color of olives.

Given this odd skin tone and her crone-like features she would have been type-cast as a wicked witch.

Come to think of it, she probably had some sort of digestive or metabolic problems. Whenever she was in our house for the day she didn't eat much at lunch, and I recall she was selective about what she'd eat. I recall my aunts and grandmother alluding to this woman's 'jaundice'.

As to the Green Children ... I don't recall reading any account that described the children's color as anything more specific than simply 'green'. It's never been clear to me why folks jump to the conclusion their coloration was an intense or deep green (e.g., like a Kelly green).
 
What would a person with a brown or tanned skin look like with jaundice?

Olive, I would imagine.
 
Just a heads up, but there’s a group on Facebook called Folk Horror Revival. Someone there has decided it would be a good idea to make some stuff up about the green children and to fake some book pages. How long before this starts getting passed around as genuine?

6EAF1B4C-DFE0-42B4-9375-4CA2A6C05D49.jpeg
 
FHR on FB is a creative and enjoyable group :)
 
totally :(

on the other hand, this is living breathing folklore in action :)
 
totally :(

on the other hand, this is living breathing folklore in action :)
Well we're seeing it evolve even more

"I’ve been doing some more research (
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) into the Woolpit green children mystery and stumbled across this photograph and scan of a magazine page from 1981. "
142722318_10165061068620727_4655874363255487203_o.jpg
142739841_10165061068525727_2320080717872266562_o.jpg
 
I don't think the little girl's feet are abnormally large, since she appears to be wearing a bog-standard pair of kids' sandals. Unless Clarks have taken to handmaking shoes individually! Whereas the feet of the other child appear to be abnormally small and wearing what amounts to baby's bootees. In fact they look as though the actual shoes have been cropped out, leaving only the socks.
 
We all wore shoes like that in the 70s

And those dire cotton socks.

(No wonder shes green)
 
I always think the case was possibly due to 3 things. A toxic reaction due to contact with toxic elements or a toxic reaction to something in their diet or a genetic condition.

Firstly a toxic reaction due to contact with a toxic element?

There are no Lead or Copper mines in Suffolk as far as I'm aware. If it was set in Wales I'd say this was a possibility. However many sources cite they were believed to be Flemish and possibly children of Flemish Dyers. Dyers would have been in contact with some mordants that could be toxic, such as Chromium or Tin but it is unlikely they would exhibit green jaundice.
yeah it's a maybe, but probably not.
Toxic diet?

The story goes they would only eat Fava/Broad Beans.
I feel that this is to a matter of degree a misquote of the source. It's not actually stated that they ate a diet of nothing but beans before entering Woolpit. The statement is that beans were the only form of food that the people of Woolpit and/or Wikes had that they were willing to eat. It's an odd distinction to make, but it could be important. Especially since it's physically impossible for medieval peasants to live on broad beans all year... at least in the fresh form. When out of season you'd at least need to store them as dried beans. Which... maybe they did? I honestly have no idea.

The discussion of the way they handled bean stalks is equally noteworthy. Logically they were old enough to be able to split bean pods and pick the beans out... but didn't know how. They recognized the plants, thus they'd seen them in person, but had seemingly never helped process the bean pods. Thus we know for certain they'd never eaten beans straight out of the pod before... ever. In turn, it's possible they didn't actually eat them as a dietary staple. It may have been part of their diet, but it wasn't the bulk of it. Or maybe medieval people were making mountains out of molehills because it amused them? hard to say...

The Chlorosis condition, as I noted before, can be CURED by eating beans, but if they didn't eat beans often maybe they needed more of them? Again it's not clear what the actual bulk of their diet was. It had to have been a BAD diet, but what kind of bad? We don't actually know what kinds of food they refused to eat either. They only thing mentioned by name is bread. But it was seemingly every sort of food commonly eaten by the locals. But the story doesn't spell out what.
I disagree with this. The link between skin pigmentation and their diet of broad beans is way too much of a coincidence. If it was Favism and they could only eat broad beans this would have eventually lead to liver disorders such as cholestasis and haemolysis. I think the boy's liver was far too damaged, the girl's not so much and as the liver does was able to repair itself.
I originally discounted this, but... then realized it's not always so severe you display symptoms just from eating one bean. A form that needs to build up over time? Maybe.

The main issue with the Chlorosis idea is that It's a condition that kills you via anoxia. If you've recovered enough for your skin to turn back to normal color then you're no longer in danger of dying of it. So if the boy turned back to normal color BEFORE dying then he didn't die of Chlorosis. But Ralph's version said the boy died BEFORE he was seen to eat anything other than beans. So maybe he did die of Chlorosis? I dunno.
Green Jaundice is a horribly understudied condition and it took me a while to find anything as most studies are behind a paywall.
One of my cousins suffered from jaundice as a child but in his case his complexion turned yellowish. But IIRC it was due to build up of Bilirubin in his blood. But if it's Biliverdin instead of Bilirubin yeah... green.
As I said there is way too much of a coincidence. The situation fits the picture quite well
Yeah it's hard to be sure WHICH condition it was, but there's no way it's a coincidence.
I agree with this. In my youth I was acquainted with a green woman over a period of years.

When I was a child - up through my teen years - there was a local woman who made a living doing house cleaning. She was regularly hired by my family for spring cleaning at the family 'compound' (5 houses clustered together), so I saw her on at least an annual basis, sometimes for multiple days at a stretch. She was a widow of indeterminate age whose features hinted at Native American or possibly Mediterranean ancestry. Though thin and somewhat hunched-over with wrinkled leathery skin she was remarkably active and worked constantly the entire day.

I would characterize her skin tone as an 'olive complexion', but with a literally 'olive' tint. Her skin's undertone was a uniform goldish-green (as contrasted with a greenish-tinged gold or yellow), quite similar to the color of olives.

Given this odd skin tone and her crone-like features she would have been type-cast as a wicked witch.

Come to think of it, she probably had some sort of digestive or metabolic problems. Whenever she was in our house for the day she didn't eat much at lunch, and I recall she was selective about what she'd eat. I recall my aunts and grandmother alluding to this woman's 'jaundice'.

As to the Green Children ... I don't recall reading any account that described the children's color as anything more specific than simply 'green'. It's never been clear to me why folks jump to the conclusion their coloration was an intense or deep green (e.g., like a Kelly green).
It's the old telephone thing. It's very rare to see a retelling that sticks to the originals. People don't remember things EXACTLY as they hear them and repeat what they remember. To my understanding it's the opposite of being bright green: they were said to be "green tinged" in the original accounts. Maybe it's just more "interesting" to imagine them to be bright green?
 
My family had access to a holiday cottage on the East Coast (Dunwich) and we went once or usually twice a year from 1963 - 82. We passed Woolpit but never stopped in - I'd never heard of the Green Children story until 2 weeks ago when I was looking for sites of interest on a trip to Suffolk. As a kid the thing that intrigued me about Woolpit was that the name was derived from wolf-pit and was possibly the site of the last wolf killed in East Anglia. But even that seems unlikely now as the village web-page suggests the name came from the personal name of Ulfketel (wolf (ulf) trap (ketel). Ulfketel was a counsellor at the court of Aethelred the Unready (c.968 AD to 1016 AD). I know this isn't adding anything to the Thread, I'm just genuinely perplexed at not coming across the green-tinged legend earlier.
 
Bad Bungle; your Holiday cottage is 20m out to sea now....
 
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