Haunted Digs!

[Spookdaddy]

I've just watched M R James A Warning to the Curious which a friend recorded for me over Christmas. What struck me watching it was that although archaeological excavations present many of the criteria required for a good haunting in fiction I can't recall having heard of any supposed supernatural disturbances at actual digs.

I know there are at least a couple of archaeologists on this board who might have a story. Anyone heard of any watchful spirits buggering around with the diggers?

 

[escargot]

It's s'posed to have happened t'other way round, as in messages at seances telling peeps where to dig for the best archaelogical discoveries!

There was an article about this in FT a few years back.

 

[HelzAngel]

Wasn't the place in York where the Roman Legionnaries march through originally a dig, or am I getting confused as normal

 

[TheQuixote]

Frederick Bligh Bond?

 

[minordrag]

I've read about at least one instance, in which the ghost of a Native American warrior haunted a dig until his head was returned to his body. Apparently, he had been captured in a battle several hundred years previously, beheaded and dumped in a trash heap. They were able to find the skeleton with the aid of the spook, who didn't return after the remains were buried.

Who knows if this story is true. It certainly has all the trappings of the old-school kind of tale--you know, ultimate justice, putting things right, and all that. Oh yeah--the spook scared the hell out of the Native helpers (picture bug-eyed "darkie" Natives in some 30s jungle adventure movie) but not their rational overseers, so the stereotype is complete. Most "believable" spook events are a lot more chaotic and unresolved.

Further, I don't think you're going to get a bunch of archaeologists sitting around the campfire swapping personal ghost stories. Most of these people have the scientific attitude to such phenomena: it doesn't exist. Anomolous experiences can be ignored or explained away.

 

[Spookdaddy]

(I knew there was a thread on haunted digs somewhere...I'd forgotten I'd started it, though; not sure what that says about my memory.)

I was researching something else entirely (a vague childhood memory I had about a supposedly haunted artefact in the local museum of the town I grew up) when I came across the story of the Mouselow Stones. These are now built into an archway in the museum but come from the site of a possible Iron Age hillfort in the town of Glossop.

And, if the archaeologist Glynis Reeve’s experiences when working on the site the stones were found don’t exactly constitute a haunting, as such, they were certainly attended by plenty of spookiness. (She didn’t actually excavate the stones – they were removed from the site at a much earlier date.)

From Buxton Museum’s own website, here.

When Glynis Greenman undertook the excavation of the site in 1985 she experienced a lot of warnings about working on the site, she describes these in a letter to Mr Mike Bishop (our curator at the time) as:

“…ranging from the evil of stone heads and horned figures to the possibility of ending up nailed to a tree. I do realise this sounds like a bad script for second-rate B movie from the Hammer House of Horror; but fortunately most of this has happened while there were other people present so at least I can prove it really did happen.”

The stones also get a mention on Dr David Clarke’s site, here. A portion of that article, describing some of the oddness attending the dig:

...Glynis described how it was not long after volunteers began work that things began to go wrong. “We had not been up there for very long when we started to get anonymous phone calls, quite late in the evening from people obviously very concerned that we were digging on a site which had some special significance to them.” The calls asked ‘why are young digging up there?’ and ‘what are you trying to find?’, and there were warnings about horned figures and ‘the Old Ways.’ The dig was based in a small field centre in Glossop and soon a number of people began to come in demanding to know what they were doing, some of whom were “quite annoyed.” Relations with local people worsened when Glynis began to research the history of Mouselow Stones and arrangements were made for them to return for an exhibition in the field centre.

“I thought we would perhaps arouse some local interest and maybe find out some more about them,” said Glynis. “But I was totally unprepared for the reaction.” One man visited the display and looked at the stones for a long time. When Glynis said she wished she knew what she wasn’t supposed to find on the hill, the visitor turned and said: “What you did not find was the entrance to hell.”

Undeterred, Glynis reopened the dig again in the summer of 1985. This time, every member of the team suffered an accident on the site. “We found it very hard to put to the back of our minds, especially when everybody had drawn blood, and we had to get to the bottom of what it was that was disturbing people so much.” Her suspicions were confirmed when a Celtic scholar, Dr Anne Ross examined the stones. She said they appeared Celtic in style, if not in date, and may have once formed part of a pagan Celtic shrine. Dr Ross said she believed Glynis had stumbled across what she called “a strong local feeling about certain stones which had been sacred, which were believed to have certain powers.”

In an effort to calm nerves and extend the hand of friendship to the mysterious followers of ‘the Old Ways’, Glynis decided that on the eve of the old festival of Beltane, May 1st, she would try to communicate with them. “A member of my team and I decided we would go up on to the site at night. It was very dark and lonely and we were frightened, because we kept hearing rustlings in the trees and couldn’t tell whether it was the wind or perhaps someone watching us.” When the two reached the summit, Glynis stood and announced: “You have nothing to fear from us.” She then slowly walked down towards another member of the team who was waiting in a car. They were all unnerved when he said that while the pair was on the hill, he had seen a number of torchlights moving about on the lower slopes...

(Reeve and Greenman are the same person, both are married names – I believe she now writes under her maiden name, whatever that is.)

I never did find anything relating to that other haunted object, though.

 

[Ulalume]

I don't have anything to add on the subject, I'd just like to welcome Spookdaddy back to the forum. Hi Spookdaddy! *waves*

Further, I don't think you're going to get a bunch of archaeologists sitting around the campfire swapping personal ghost stories. Most of these people have the scientific attitude to such phenomena: it doesn't exist. Anomolous experiences can be ignored or explained away.

I know the foregoing quote is an old post, but I just had to comment -
a close relative of mine is a paleo-pathologist, who has spent much time at digs examining bones. According to her, the ghost story scenario does happen at times and she herself has no doubt that ghosts exist. Oh, of course she is a great supporter of science and rationality, but this does not, for her, conflict with her belief in ghosts at all.
It takes all kinds, I guess.

 

[Spookdaddy]

I don't have anything to add on the subject, I'd just like to welcome Spookdaddy back to the forum. Hi Spookdaddy! *waves*

Thanks Ulalume, I didn't think anyone had noticed that I'd disappeared for a while.

I know the foregoing quote is an old post, but I just had to comment -
a close relative of mine is a paleo-pathologist, who has spent much time at digs examining bones. According to her, the ghost story scenario does happen at times and she herself has no doubt that ghosts exist. Oh, of course she is a great supporter of science and rationality, but this does not, for her, conflict with her belief in ghosts at all.
It takes all kinds, I guess.

Yep, I don't think that possessing a professionally rational mind necessarily excludes a little extra curricular enjoyment of the weird.

(You could also argue that the experiences of the archaeologist I posted above are generally not in themselves paranormal, they are secondary - a result of other people's beliefs in such matters - and therefore, however 'rational' she herself might have been is kind of irrelevant. But I accept that this is probably a different scenario to the one minordrag was envisaging.)

 

[escargot]

a close relative of mine is a paleo-pathologist, who has spent much time at digs examining bones. According to her, the ghost story scenario does happen at times and she herself has no doubt that ghosts exist. Oh, of course she is a great supporter of science and rationality, but this does not, for her, conflict with her belief in ghosts at all.
It takes all kinds, I guess.

My son is a particle physicist and won't entertain any idea of the supernatural.
However, I know that he has had such experiences. I was present for at least one. He explains it away by saying that we must've seen something a bit misleading and then talked it up.

I don't argue with him about it. He works at CERN, where there are religious monuments. What are they doing there?

 

[David Plankton]

The Dr Anne Ross mentioned being the same person involved in the Hexham Heads case I presume.

I never did find anything relating to that other haunted object, though.

What was that, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Spookdaddy]

What was that, if you don't mind me asking?

The basic memory is very clear, but the details vague - if that makes sense at all.

It was way back in my primary school days. I can recall looking at the object in an old display case, and that object was very old - neolithic, I think. That's why the basic memory has stayed around - because the thing involved was much older than I would normally associate with ghost stories. There are an awful lot of tumuli in the area and I think this probably came from one. I also think animal bones were involved in some way. Oh, and it was a member of the museum staff who told us the story associated with it.

Sorry to be so vague. Next time I'm around I'm going to go in and have a look around and see if anything jogs the memory.

 

[escargot]

They make sure the alchemy works...

Our Snailet of Physics was coincidentally complaining today that an American evangelist video featured a photo of his, of the famous Shiva statue at CERN! They've lifted it from a physics blog without permission.

It's this one - Tom Horn 2015-The Mysteries of CERN and The Unknown - and it's probably best to skip to the photo and discussion of how evil it is at about 7:40.

It seems that Escet may be in fact the Antichrist.

 

[skinny]

Our Snailet of Physics was coincidentally complaining today that an American evangelist video featured a photo of his, of the famous Shiva statue at CERN! They've lifted it from a physics blog without permission.

It's this one - Tom Horn 2015-The Mysteries of CERN and The Unknown - and it's probably best to skip to the photo and discussion of how evil it is at about 7:40.

It seems that Escet may be in fact the Antichrist.

Nice. That is a beautiful work of Shiva. Your son has a fine eye for the composition too I might add.

And I do love listening to evangelists in business suits, impeccably manicured for our viewing pleasure, not a-one of them in touch with the concepts they're espousing. You can almost feel God's love coming though the pancake.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Not a haunted dig, as such. But a site where rather disturbing discoveries during a relatively recent dig and an (allegedly) older ghost story supposedly intersect.

Fin Cop is a distinctive hill rising above Monsal Dale in the Derbyshire Peak District. It's visible to the north of the A6 Buxton to Bakewell road. Walking, the nature of the landscape means that if you approach from the east you may not even be aware you are on a hill, but the view from the west, with its almost impossibly geometric looking slope, is distinctive.

Taken from the valley bottom:

Taken from the other side of the valley:

It’s long been known as an archaeological site (although the 'Roman Fort' tag on Google Earth is misleading), but seems to have been left, relatively speaking, in peace – even by the Antiquarian barrow diggers who were once common visitors to this area of the Peak.

However, between 2010-2012 a community lead archaeological project uncovered – among other things – evidence of an ancient massacre.

What might have happened at Fin Cop?

People had been going there for thousands of years. There is a tool-knapping floor, with the remains of chert flakes scattered around, dating from long before the iron age. But by the time of our events it seems that there was a community here, maybe not permanently, but with the security of a wall around the houses. Something happened, and the community reinforced that wall, not very well so we can imagine it had to be done quite quickly. And then…?

Let us start with the things which are missing from the archaeology. We would expect clothes and baskets and other organic materials to have disintegrated completely, which they have. But there is very, very little pottery – admittedly the pottery of the time was friable and poorly made – more like flapjack than ceramics! No metal – well, the limestone reaction will not have helped that. No beads, no bone ornaments and tools; no spindle whorls or loom weights. If you want clothes made from wool, then these would surely survive, just round or circular pieces of stone with holes drilled through them?

It is unlikely that the archaeologists didn’t choose to collect them. They just aren’t there. Nor are the bones of animals – pigs or sheep. There is no evidence of men, or older women. There is no evidence of infection, nor of a site being raised to the ground.

So what is there?

What there was, found seemingly tossed into the ditch below the wall, and with the wall tumbled above, were the remains of young women, children and unborn babies, including a woman carrying twins. No clothes. No ornaments – not a bone pin that might have held a cloak, or beads that may have braided hair. The soles of the feet had been beaten, to such extent that the marks remain even now in the bones. A drinking cup, broken and friable was thrown away too, like a modern emptied takeaway coffee cup; this was the only artefact other than the rocks from the wobbly defences above. Sixteen skeletons or partial remains were removed from the trenches. There may be four hundred more – let them rest there...

Source: Lullaby of the Larks: The Fin Cop Massacre.

In regard to this thread, a later addition to the Buxton Museum website relates the following story:

A few months or so ago, a friend of mine told me of his father’s experience whilst out driving his car in the Peak District area in 1965. Mr Cave heard the frantic screaming of women, children and the shouting of men and the sounds of weapons. His experience so chilled and frightened him that he never drove down that road again. Mr Cave actually left written descriptions of what he heard on a dry and sunny afternoon in 1965 quite a few years later; obviously the experience lingered powerfully with him.

Source: Ghostly Echo of Fin Cop.

The chronology is iffy – I mean, it’s easy to come up afterwards with a story from before; if there was evidence of a story existing before the dig took place, I’d be more convinced.

But still – it’s a story. And Fin Cop is the kind of place that demands them.

As to other factors – on a quiet evening, with the wind in the right direction, I’d entertain the notion that you could just about hear the sounds described coming from the Cop while you were parked up on the road. But I doubt it would be audible in a moving vehicle. That said, that particular stretch of road is exactly the kind you might stop for a bit to enjoy the view.

I’ve looked for other tales associated with the area, and there are a few, but none I can find that are associated in this way with Fin Cop.

There's a blog post about the dig by a Canadian bioarchaeologist - interesting, and with some nice photographs. But no ghosts, unfortunately.

Excavations at Fin Cop, Derbyshire.

 

[catseye]

Not a haunted dig, as such. But a site where rather disturbing discoveries during a relatively recent dig and an (allegedly) older ghost story supposedly intersect.

Fin Cop is a distinctive hill rising above Monsal Dale in the Derbyshire Peak District. It's visible to the north of the A6 Buxton to Bakewell road. Walking, the nature of the landscape means that if you approach from the east you may not even be aware you are on a hill, but the view from the west, with its almost impossibly geometric looking slope, is distinctive.

Taken from the valley bottom:

View attachment 65906

Taken from the other side of the valley:

View attachment 65907


It’s long been known as an archaeological site (although the 'Roman Fort' tag on Google Earth is misleading), but seems to have been left, relatively speaking, in peace – even by the Antiquarian barrow diggers who were once common visitors to this area of the Peak.

However, between 2010-2012 a community lead archaeological project uncovered – among other things – evidence of an ancient massacre.



Source: Lullaby of the Larks: The Fin Cop Massacre.

In regard to this thread, a later addition to the Buxton Museum website relates the following story:



Source: Ghostly Echo of Fin Cop.

The chronology is iffy – I mean, it’s easy to come up afterwards with a story from before; if there was evidence of a story existing before the dig took place, I’d be more convinced.

But still – it’s a story. And Fin Cop is the kind of place that demands them.

As to other factors – on a quiet evening, with the wind in the right direction, I’d entertain the notion that you could just about hear the sounds described coming from the Cop while you were parked up on the road. But I doubt it would be audible in a moving vehicle. That said, that particular stretch of road is exactly the kind you might stop for a bit to enjoy the view.

I’ve looked for other tales associated with the area, and there are a few, but none I can find that are associated in this way with Fin Cop.

There's a blog post about the dig by a Canadian bioarchaeologist - interesting, and with some nice photographs. But no ghosts, unfortunately.

Excavations at Fin Cop, Derbyshire.

Your observation about sounds being heard from inside a moving car is interesting. I might, if I were being particularly cynical, suggest that the sounds of crying and weapons might be occasioned by squealing suspension and springs, particularly in a 1960s car.

But then the sound should be audible at other times. Was the road the car was on particularly unmade or bumpy in 1965? It might be that road conditions were such that the car made unusual noises...

 

[Spookdaddy]

Your observation about sounds being heard from inside a moving car is interesting. I might, if I were being particularly cynical, suggest that the sounds of crying and weapons might be occasioned by squealing suspension and springs, particularly in a 1960s car.

But then the sound should be audible at other times. Was the road the car was on particularly unmade or bumpy in 1965? It might be that road conditions were such that the car made unusual noises...

It's a good point - but yes, if a chap driving such a car was susceptible to hearing ancient massacres in mechanical sounds then he may well have spent such of his driving time in a state of abject terror.

I can't swear to the state of the road - but it's a main one (well, at least for round there), and I suspect it was well maintained even back then.

Actually, I should of course have flagged that it's purely my own assumption that he was on the A6 Buxton/Bakewell road.

Having said that, it's an assumption based on knowing the area well. I'm pretty sure the B6465 road to the east is too far away, and I'd say that the geography is wrong for the carrying of sound over the distance involved. Even the nearest farm tracks are quite some distance. (What might look like a track just to the east is a footpath.) There's a track across the valley to the west, where sound might carry (it's pretty close to my second photograph) but it's private access to the farm up there.

Also, the road leading up to Monsal Head, from Cressbrook: At it's highest point, just before it hits Monsal Head, I could just about entertain, in the right conditions, that you might hear something from Fin Cop (which you can make out to the north, at that point), but there's so much landscape between the two places that I'd have to question how the person knew any supposed sounds were coming from the hill, rather than anywhere else.

 

[SimonBurchell]

Further, I don't think you're going to get a bunch of archaeologists sitting around the campfire swapping personal ghost stories. Most of these people have the scientific attitude to such phenomena: it doesn't exist. Anomolous experiences can be ignored or explained away.

I recall that Mesoamerican archaeologist Richard Adams had a great interest in the paranormal (at least, I think it was him - it was some prominent Mesoamerican scholar). As I recall - pretty sure it was Richard Adams - he attended at least one of the Scole seances.

 

[catseye]

It's a good point - but yes, if a chap driving such a car was susceptible to hearing ancient massacres in mechanical sounds then he may well have spent such of his driving time in a state of abject terror.

I can't swear to the state of the road - but it's a main one (well, at least for round there), and I suspect it was well maintained even back then.

Actually, I should of course have flagged that it's purely my own assumption that he was on the A6 Buxton/Bakewell road.

Having said that, it's an assumption based on knowing the area well. I'm pretty sure the B6465 road to the east is too far away, and I'd say that the geography is wrong for the carrying of sound over the distance involved. Even the nearest farm tracks are quite some distance. (What might look like a track just to the east is a footpath.) There's a track across the valley to the west, where sound might carry (it's pretty close to my second photograph) but it's private access to the farm up there.

Also, the road leading up to Monsal Head, from Cressbrook: At it's highest point, just before it hits Monsal Head, I could just about entertain, in the right conditions, that you might hear something from Fin Cop (which you can make out to the north, at that point), but there's so much landscape between the two places that I'd have to question how the person knew any supposed sounds were coming from the hill, rather than anywhere else.

Yes, I would have thought the car would make such noises regularly - although if there was anything unusual about the accoustics or condition of the road, he may only hear those particular sounds in that particular place.

Reminds me of a local stretch of road where motorists were complaining there was something that 'damaged their cars' on the road surface. Turned out to be rumble strips to warn of new speed restrictions - people were interpreting the sound as their cars being damaged because of the noise, even though the sound must have been EXTREMELY localised (and the rumble strips visible), but nobody put two and two together for a considerable time. It was quite the local scandal for a while.

 

[Floyd]

Also, the road leading up to Monsal Head, from Cressbrook: At it's highest point, just before it hits Monsal Head, I could just about entertain, in the right conditions, that you might hear something from Fin Cop (which you can make out to the north, at that point), but there's so much landscape between the two places that I'd have to question how the person knew any supposed sounds were coming from the hill, rather than anywhere else.

My Grandad was born and spent the early part of his life in Cressbrook, and my Great Grandad worked in the mill there before the war, but I don't recall any of them, or anyone else ever mentioning Fin Cop unfortunately.

I will say though Spook, that that whole area- Tideswell/Wardlow/Longstone/Ashford- of the peak district always felt very 'heavy' and had a slightly *depressing feel in some way to me.

* I don't mean as in 'I want to leave this place' depressing, but an unaccountable feeling of 'otherworldliness' perhaps. ?

 

[Spookdaddy]

...I will say though Spook, that that whole area- Tideswell/Wardlow/Longstone/Ashford- of the peak district always felt very 'heavy' and had a slightly *depressing feel in some way to me.

* I don't mean as in 'I want to leave this place' depressing, but an unaccountable feeling of 'otherworldliness' perhaps. ?

Although 'depressing' is not a word I would associate with my own relationship to the area, I definitely recognise the otherworldly element. And actually, yes, maybe that can sometimes act on the psyche in a way that might be described as oppressive.

I was trying to find other photos of Fin Cop in my files, but the only one of any potential relevance is below, showing the eastern approach (if you followed the 'arrow' formed by the bars of the gate, you would reach the norther corner of the Cop).

The image was taken on a heavy day, with the threat of a summer storm, that in the end never appeared. It's not a particularly interesting photo, but I think maybe it illustrates something of that heaviness you describe.

It also strikes me that there's something ominously MR Jamesian about that stand of trees to the left; although of course, in his case the trees would be gnarled Scots pine - and we would be approaching the sea, rather than the summit of a steep sided hill.

 

[Floyd]

Although 'depressing' is not a word I would associate with my own relationship to the area, I definitely recognise the otherworldly element. And actually, yes, maybe that can sometimes act on the psyche in a way that might be described as oppressive.

I was trying to find other photos of Fin Cop in my files, but the only one of any potential relevance is below, showing the eastern approach (if you followed the 'arrow' formed by the bars of the gate, you would reach the norther corner of the Cop).

The image was taken on a heavy day, with the threat of a summer storm, that in the end never appeared. It's not a particularly interesting photo, but I think maybe it illustrates something of that heaviness you describe.

It also strikes me that there's something ominously MR Jamesian about that stand of trees to the left; although of course, in his case the trees would be gnarled Scots pine - and we would be approaching the sea, rather than the summit of a steep sided hill.

View attachment 65945

Yes, I didn't explain myself very well and I shouldn't have used 'depressing' I agree.

Lovely photo.

Two things I've missed these last few years- rivers and dry stone walls. (We spent most of our childhood by the river and on the moors).

 

[catseye]

Although 'depressing' is not a word I would associate with my own relationship to the area, I definitely recognise the otherworldly element. And actually, yes, maybe that can sometimes act on the psyche in a way that might be described as oppressive.

I was trying to find other photos of Fin Cop in my files, but the only one of any potential relevance is below, showing the eastern approach (if you followed the 'arrow' formed by the bars of the gate, you would reach the norther corner of the Cop).

The image was taken on a heavy day, with the threat of a summer storm, that in the end never appeared. It's not a particularly interesting photo, but I think maybe it illustrates something of that heaviness you describe.

It also strikes me that there's something ominously MR Jamesian about that stand of trees to the left; although of course, in his case the trees would be gnarled Scots pine - and we would be approaching the sea, rather than the summit of a steep sided hill.

View attachment 65945

Nicely illustrating my 'trees in clumps in fields are scary' theory.