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Does Hell Exist?

rynner2

rynner2

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'Hell exists - deny it and you'll end up there'
NICK PISA
IN ROME

POPE BENEDICT XVI has reiterated the existence of Hell and condemned society for not talking about eternal damnation enough.

A furious Pope Benedict unleashed a bitter attack during a sermon while on a visit to a parish church and said: "Hell exists and there is eternal punishment for those who sin and do not repent."

Sounding "more of a parish priest than a Pope" the leader of the world's one billion Roman Catholics added: "The problem today is society does not talk about Hell. It's as if it did not exist, but it does."

Pope Benedict unleashed his fury during a visit to the tiny parish church of St Felicity and the Martyr Children at Fidene on the outskirts of Rome, in his capacity as bishop of the Italian capital.

One churchgoer said: "The Holy Father was really having a go. It was a typical fire-and-brimstone sermon that you would have expected from a parish priest years ago."

As well as Italians, the church serves a large immigrant population, including the city's Filipino community.

A committed theologian, it is not the first time the Pope has described the existence of Hell but it is the first time that he has stressed its significance in a sermon to humble parishioners.

Using the Gospel reading of John where Jesus saves the adulterous woman from death by stoning by saying "let he who is without sin to cast the first stone", Pope Benedict said: "This reading shows us that Christ wants to save souls. He is saying that He wants us in Paradise with Him but He is saying that those who close their hearts to Him will be condemned to eternal damnation.

"Only God's love can change from within the existence of the person and, consequently, the existence of every society, because only His infinite love liberates from sin, the root of every evil."

That same love is reflected in the sacrifice of Christ, who came with the concrete goal of saving souls, he added.

While still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and prefect of the Congregation of Divine Faith, he said: "The problem is that today, even the clergy thinks we are all so good that we will enter Paradise.

"We are impregnated by a culture that has taken away the sense of man's guilt, the sense of one's own guilt.

"It is the denial of a key reality of faith that Hell exists for sinners."

Various interpretations of the torment of Hell exist, ranging from fiery pits of wailing sinners to lonely isolation from God's presence.

Dante's The Divine Comedy is a classic inspiration for modern images of Hell with its flames and winged, diabolical-looking beasts. The 15th century Dutch artist Hieronymus Bosch also seared his vision of Hell into the popular European imagination, with pictures showing half-man, half-beast creatures

A fiery vision of Hell is mentioned in the Bible, in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verse 21, which describes: "the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels", while the Book of Revelation talks of "lakes of fire, brimming with sulphur".

Previous popes have often spoken of the existence of the Devil - St Peter, the first pope, warned: "Be vigil, be watchful, your enemy the Devil is about."

Fifteen hundred years later, Pope John XXIII, known as the Good Pope, who died in 1963, said: "The greatest trick of the Devil has been to convince the world that he does not exist."

However, Pope Benedict's vision of Hell is not a Dantesque vision of flames and devils, but more of a condition and state of mind.

Speaking in 2005, he said: "Let's hope there are few men whose lives have been a total failure that is unredeemable.

"Hell consists of an eternal damnation for those who have decided to die with the stain of mortal sin.

"The principal punishment of Hell is the eternal separation from God."

As a theologian, the Pope wrote about Hell on several occasions.

In the 1968 book, Introduction to Christianity, he described Hell as a state of existential abandonment, "the loneliness into which love can no longer reach".

In God and the World, a book-length interview in 2000, he said the church reminds people of Heaven and Hell in order to underline that "there is a responsibility before God, that there is a judgment, that human life can either turn out right or come to disaster".

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines Hell as "the state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed".

FATE OF THE DAMNED

IN CHRISTIANITY and Islam, hell is fiery. In other traditions, however, it can be cold and gloomy. Punishment in hell typically corresponds to sins committed in life. Sometimes these distinctions are specific, with damned souls suffering for each wrong committed, and sometimes general, with sinners relegated to one or more chamber of hell or level of suffering.

In Islam and Christianity, faith and repentance play a larger role than actions in determining a soul's after-life destiny.

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=471992007
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Using the Gospel reading of John where Jesus saves the adulterous woman from death by stoning by saying "let he who is without sin to cast the first stone", Pope Benedict said: "This reading shows us that Christ wants to save souls. He is saying that He wants us in Paradise with Him but He is saying that those who close their hearts to Him will be condemned to eternal damnation.
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and here was i thinking he just meant "live and let live, and do not judge"... silly me
 
When religious people tell me about hell I say: "It's your hell [ made up by your lot], you go burn in it".
I mean I don't even believe in the bible, how can I end up somewhere that I don't believe exist.
You could say that I don't know for sure.
However if I've never heard of hell, how could I possibly end up there?
Ok, I HAVE heard of hell, does that suddely make it appear in some dimension just because I know of it now?

Do aliens go to hell, or animals?
I do not think so.

Mind you, its a bloody good deterrent not to "stray" from your faith... :roll:
 
Dingo667 said:
I mean I don't even believe in the bible, how can I end up somewhere that I don't believe exist.
You could say that I don't know for sure.
However if I've never heard of hell, how could I possibly end up there?
Ok, I HAVE heard of hell, does that suddely make it appear in some dimension just because I know of it now?
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Not quite sure where you're going with that argument Dingo :? If I didn't know a tree was behind me could I reverse my car into it? Yes I could. Well, I couldn't, I'm a good driver, but you get my drift.
 
Hell does exist - this plane we call reality is it! :lol:
 
I like the buddist hells, they are varied and have style.

And the demons are so cute.
 
I mean I don't even believe in the bible, how can I end up somewhere that I don't believe exist.
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This is the logic behind Marlowe's 'Dr Faustus'. He is a modern man, learned and scientific, so he feels free to choose not to believe in the consequences of his actions.

He is wrong, because choosing not to believe something does not make it untrue, and he goes to hell. :shock:
 
How about a state of definitive self-exculsion from the Pope and the rest of the Vatican Boys?



:D
 
escargot1 said:
I mean I don't even believe in the bible, how can I end up somewhere that I don't believe exist.
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This is the logic behind Marlowe's 'Dr Faustus'. He is a modern man, learned and scientific, so he feels free to choose not to believe in the consequences of his actions.

He is wrong, because choosing not to believe something does not make it untrue, and he goes to hell. :shock:
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Ok.. so.. if I believed there was a tree in my garden when there wasn't... would that mean that believing in something makes something that is untrue.. actually true after all?

I take the prospect of going to hell with a pinch of salt. (or sulphur) Only religious people tell you its there and are we to believe everything we hear? I happen to know the image of the Devil is just a sphynx that was created in order to put the elements together in a symbol so that discredits the whole existence of Satan as such (for me anyway)

Besides being sent to hell isn't in keeping with the philosophy of there being an all forgiving Father (God) is it?

If you aren't a Christian and don't believe in Christian doctrine then you can't actually go to where they say you will - that would be ridiculous, you see then you could start a new religion called Shorganism right, and make out that Christ is Evil and all Christians are going to a place called Brevack where they will burn for all eternity - and if you got enough people to believe you then all Christians would wake up in Brevack one day presided over by an Evil ghost called Warakan... and jabbed with a pitchfork and made to burn... etc etc..

Do you think Christians would believe that? No, they'd call you mentally ill or something and yet they do exactly the same thing in reverse.

PS - the new religious order could have a doctrine and everything - like there was this great man who performed miracles called Shorgan and if there are testimonies who's to say this isn't true? If we got enough disciples together we could do precisely the same thing as Jesus disciples did - I mean who knows how many lies and untruths they bestowed upon us.. ? Its easily done.
 
ginoide said:
Using the Gospel reading of John where Jesus saves the adulterous woman from death by stoning by saying "let he who is without sin to cast the first stone", Pope Benedict said: "This reading shows us that Christ wants to save souls. He is saying that He wants us in Paradise with Him but He is saying that those who close their hearts to Him will be condemned to eternal damnation.
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and here was i thinking he just meant "live and let live, and do not judge"... silly me
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liberal readings of the Bible have no more god-sanctioned authority than that of the Pope's or your neighbors. he has as valid an opinion as you do. from my perspective, though, you can take the Bible as a book which you can take and leave, like any other book. consider your ideas on life valid whether or not the Bible supports it.

judge by the way, does not mean condemn. you can judge a person or an action without condemning.

in other words, you can judge without turning into the Pope.
 
Ria777 said:
ginoide said:
Using the Gospel reading of John where Jesus saves the adulterous woman from death by stoning by saying "let he who is without sin to cast the first stone", Pope Benedict said: "This reading shows us that Christ wants to save souls. He is saying that He wants us in Paradise with Him but He is saying that those who close their hearts to Him will be condemned to eternal damnation.
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and here was i thinking he just meant "live and let live, and do not judge"... silly me
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liberal readings of the Bible have no more god-sanctioned authority than that of the Pope's or your neighbors. he has as valid an opinion as you do. from my perspective, though, you can take the Bible as a book which you can take and leave, like any other book. consider your ideas on life
valid whether or not the Bible supports it. judge by the way, does not mean condemn. you can judge a person or an action without condemning.
in other words, you can judge without turning into the Pope.
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Good points and all but the difference between the Pope and other people is that he is a religious leader and infallible in the eyes of millions. So therefore his apparent opinion counts for more than a feeble non religious human being.
 
Wasn´t John Paul saying just a few years ago that hell was a metaphor for living without God´s love, rather than a physical place?
 
Forever_S said:
Good points and all but the difference between the Pope and other people is that he is a religious leader and infallible in the eyes of millions. So therefore his apparent opinion counts for more than a feeble non religious human being.
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yes, it does, except that my post did not speak to his power, it spoke to the interpretation.

I do consider the Catholic Church an evil institution.
 
Personally, I think the idea of a literal Hell beyond this life, and it's typical evocation as a punishment, is just plain mean. Some kids have nightmares over it, for instance. I shouldn't have to point out that it's wrong to do that to a child. And then you have adults who accept the idea that many of the people around them are going to Hell, which necessarily means that those lives really don't mean much in their present state (unless they convert, etc.) And what follows from that?

It's a nasty idea, especially when accompanied by images of burning, torture, etc. Like some of the most persuasive advertising, it relies on good old reliable fear (as opposed to a true spiritual awakening) to make people believe. But it falls apart under the light of critical thought and also love & compassion.

Thanks for letting me vent. :D
 
ginoide wrote:
Quote:
Using the Gospel reading of John where Jesus saves the adulterous woman from death by stoning by saying "let he who is without sin to cast the first stone", Pope Benedict said: "This reading shows us that Christ wants to save souls. He is saying that He wants us in Paradise with Him but He is saying that those who close their hearts to Him will be condemned to eternal damnation.


and here was i thinking he just meant "live and let live, and do not judge"... silly me


liberal readings of the Bible have no more god-sanctioned authority than that of the Pope's or your neighbors. he has as valid an opinion as you do. from my perspective, though, you can take the Bible as a book which you can take and leave, like any other book. consider your ideas on life valid whether or not the Bible supports it.

judge by the way, does not mean condemn. you can judge a person or an action without condemning.

in other words, you can judge without turning into the Pope.
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sorry, mine wan't a liberal reading of the bible at all. i must have been in a good mood when i posted that, trying to save some good principles from a book as you do sometimes even if you don't like the book.
i believe if one believes in the bible they must take all of it. if god wrote it as they say they must accept all of it. all BS included.
 
What I do believe in is Outer Darkness and I don't want to end up there.
 
That´s where the people who don´t follow Chtulu end up, right?
 
Xanatico said:
That´s where the people who don´t follow Chtulu end up, right?
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That's where Cthulhu sits, knives (plural) and forks (plural) in tentacles, bib on, and hungry.

House sauces on request.

Burp.
 
My email notifs this morning had "Blasphemy" followed by "Hell exists.." :shock:
 
Hell does indeed exist and I believe its up my other half's bottom :shock: . Or thats whats it smells like some days anyway!!! :cross eye
 
Belief in hell, according to international data, is associated with reduced crime
June 19th, 2012 in Other Sciences / Social Sciences

(Phys.org) -- Religions are thought to serve as bulwarks against unethical behaviors. However, when it comes to predicting criminal behavior, the specific religious beliefs one holds is the determining factor, says a University of Oregon psychologist.

The study, appearing in the Public Library of Science journal PLoS ONE, found that criminal activity is higher in societies where people's religious beliefs contain a strong punitive component than in places where religious beliefs are more benevolent. A country where many more people believe in heaven than in hell, for example, is likely to have a much higher crime rate than one where these beliefs are about equal. The finding surfaced from a comprehensive analysis of 26 years of data involving 143,197 people in 67 countries.

"The key finding is that, controlling for each other, a nation's rate of belief in hell predicts lower crime rates, but the nation's rate of belief in heaven predicts higher crime rates, and these are strong effects," said Azim F. Shariff, professor of psychology and director of the Culture and Morality Lab at the UO. "I think it's an important clue about the differential effects of supernatural punishment and supernatural benevolence. The finding is consistent with controlled research we've done in the lab, but here shows a powerful 'real world' effect on something that really affects people -- crime."

Last year, in the International Journal for the Psychology of Religion, Shariff reported that undergraduate students were more likely to cheat when they believe in a forgiving God than a punishing God.

Religious belief generally has been viewed as "a monolithic construct," Shariff said. "Once you split religion into different constructs, you begin to see different relationships. In this study, we found two differences that go in opposite directions. If you look at overall religious belief, these separate directions are washed out and you don't see anything. There's no hint of a relationship."

The new findings, he added, fit into a growing body of evidence that supernatural punishment had emerged as a very effective cultural innovation to get people to act more ethically with each other. In 2003, he said, Harvard University researchers Robert J. Barro and Rachel M. McCleary had found that gross domestic product was higher in developed countries when people believed in hell more than they did in heaven.

"Supernatural punishment across nations seems to predict lower crime rates," Shariff said. "At this stage, we can only speculate about mechanisms, but it's possible that people who don't believe in the possibility of punishment in the afterlife feel like they can get away with unethical behavior. There is less of a divine deterrent."

He added, however, that these are correlational data, and so caution should be taken with the conclusions. Though Shariff and study co-author Mijke Rhemtulla of the Center for Research Methods and Data Analysis at the University of Kansas tried to account for obvious alternative explanations, more research is needed to explore other interpretations for the findings.

"This research provides new insights into the potential influences of cultural and religious beliefs on key outcomes at a societal level," said Kimberly Andrews Espy, vice president for research and innovation. "Although these findings may be controversial, dissecting the associations between specific belief systems and epidemiologic behaviors is an important first step for social scientists to disentangle the complex web of factors that motivate human behavior."

Provided by University of Oregon

"Belief in hell, according to international data, is associated with reduced crime." June 19th, 2012. http://phys.org/news/2012-06-belief-hel ... crime.html
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ginoide said:
sorry, mine wan't a liberal reading of the bible at all. i must have been in a good mood when i posted that, trying to save some good principles from a book as you do sometimes even if you don't like the book.
i believe if one believes in the bible they must take all of it. if god wrote it as they say they must accept all of it. all BS included.
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You don't have to believe in the bible, it exists. I have one - well , actually, several because I never throw anything away (A habit I'm trying to break).

A Christian does not have to believe the Bible is written by God, is infallible or any of the things that follow from it. These are things that certain Christian (and indeed non-Christian) sects believe. All you have to believe is that He is the Son of God and try to follow His advice as recorded in the Gospels and elsewhere.
 
But the Gospels and such weren't written down by Him. They were written down by someone else, in most cases long after Jesus had left,so there is no way of knowing the right of things as people like to turn things to fit their own agendas. This is the bit that bothers me.
 
The idea of Hell is an amalgam of various ideas and symbols, inspired by Gehenna...
 
Slightly off thread but I always thought Jerry Pournelle & Larry Nivens take on the nature of Hell was very interesting see their books Inferno and Escape from Hell
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Probably, more influenced by Graeco-Roman concepts of the Realm of Hades, Erebus, or Tartarus, the realm of the dead. Also known as Sheol.
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Possibly ;) Middle-Eastern cultures were also an influence in terms of the idea of an underworld. It's mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh for example. Ideas about demons also percolated down from those cultures into Judaism, and then into Christianity. Christianity mixed the two together to get the idea of an underworld where demons live and that it is a place set aside for punishment after death (rather than some sort of neutral place where you reside after death).
 
Like most things in the Bible, I believe the concept of Hell comes from the religion of Ancient Egypt. The sufferings and torments are the same but the pious and good will also find their way there. Luckily, they would have had the foresight (and the necessary large sum of money) to buy The Book of The Dead Insurance Policy which told them how to elude the Giant Wonky-Lipped Insect, Judgement by Feather and hopefully, the added clause granting a Replacement Windscreen in case of Stone Chip.


The concept of Hell becomes a lot clearer when you see a society run by priests and elders profitting from telling you how to avoid it.
 
jimv1 said:
Like most things in the Bible, I believe the concept of Hell comes from the religion of Ancient Egypt. The sufferings and torments are the same but the pious and good will also find their way there. Luckily, they would have had the foresight (and the necessary large sum of money) to buy The Book of The Dead Insurance Policy which told them how to elude the Giant Wonky-Lipped Insect, Judgement by Feather and hopefully, the added clause granting a Replacement Windscreen in case of Stone Chip.


The concept of Hell becomes a lot clearer when you see a society run by priests and elders profitting from telling you how to avoid it.
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That's a good point - well spotted. Religion is the earliest known insurance scheme!
 
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