Highest Strangeness: Everest Oddities, Excesses & Risks

EnolaGaia said:
My point is that any assignment of blame for this year's surreal traffic jam should fall as much - or probably more - on the permit holders as on the national permit issuers.
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There's been a fair number of experienced guiding firms that have been very critical about the number of permits being issued. Also, there have been questions about the experience and know-how of a lot of new guiding firms taking climbers up.

It's up to the issuers to moderate the number of permits they issue and they should be responsible for the due diligence and be able to refuse or revoke a permit for a firm that's not up to it.

Ultimately climbing there should be banned and the whole area turned into a global place of scientific interest with Nepal being subsidized heavily to help them maintain it rather than whoring the mountains out.

Climbing is an incredibly selfish pastime and it's a microcosm of the selfishness that's destroying the planet.
 
skinny said:
Quite right. I've no idea which nationality the shithead(s) responsible for letting so many up the hill hails from. Surfeit to say whomever did that despicable act needs stringing.
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It depends which side you approach the summit from.

South Col Face = Nepal, issues permits in the low hundreds each year, always under pressure [from climbers] to issue more.
North Col Face = China, won't divulge information on numbers.

One thing I didn't make clear is the timing aspect of making the summit of Everest - there's only a very small window of mid-April to May and an even smaller window of the last week of September to the middle of October every year to do it, and even then if the weather doesn't play ball, back down to Lukla you go!. Hence the queues when there's a break in the weather.

There might be, say 400 permits issued in a year but if all the attempts have to be made within a few days when the weather is good enough, then we see the overcrowding. Let them try, and let them die if they wish is kind of my feeling about it, it's just a massive shame that some Sherpas and support staff can also be endangered by some of the selfishness.

However, the death rate for climbers is now safer than ever, strangely enough. Before the late 1970s and then the later advent of commercial expeditions the death rate was 1 in 4!

Nepali (Sherpa) deaths mostly tend to be accounted for by falls and accidents at below-death-zone areas, usually as a consequence of going ahead to fix ropes and ladders; foreign climbers' deaths are majority in/around the summit, due to exposure, HACE, HAPE, Hypoxia etc.

Again: unless climbers and the Western world in general are willing to pay more for it - why should the Nepalese people (the poorest in Asia) have to rescue, clear up after and generally police the mountain summit? Even though some of them do, and some even volunteer above 8,000m for free.

The most recent Nepalese Tourism Ministry effort brought down 11 tonnes. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/...trash-nepal-clean-up-team-reports/3649409002/

[edited for sense/syntax]
 
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Naughty_Felid said:
There's been a fair number of experienced guiding firms that have been very critical about the number of permits being issued. Also, there have been questions about the experience and know-how of a lot of new guiding firms taking climbers up.

It's up to the issuers to moderate the number of permits they issue and they should be responsible for the due diligence and be able to refuse or revoke a permit for a firm that's not up to it.

Ultimately climbing there should be banned and the whole area turned into a global place of scientific interest with Nepal being subsidized heavily to help them maintain it rather than whoring the mountains out.

Climbing is an incredibly selfish pastime and it's a microcosm of the selfishness that's destroying the planet.
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The whole of the area around Namche Bazaar and Lukla does kind of depend on Everest climbers for much of their existence. If (say) the U.N. and/or other countries were to subsidise the area, who decides how much and how?

The recent queues and incidents like the 1996 blizzard deaths have been as the result of people wanting to 'buy' the experience of climbing Everest without being willing to organise the logistics of a full-blown expedition such as Bonington's 1976 trip. Even on his well-organised non-commercial trek, someone died.

If the people and government of Nepal want to allow climbing, and benefit from it economically, how do they police it? There are also side-benefits to allowing commercial expeditions. Part of the expedition fee does go towards providing a helicopter rescue service which also ferries local people in emergencies FOC. Many of the pilots and medics associated with it are foreign workers willing to accept low local wages in order to 'volunteer' and also benefit the local area whilst also gaining valuable experience.

In fact, Lukla airstrip was partly built as a result of Sir Edmund Hillary's fundraising after he & Tenzing Norgay Sherpa trekked through the area to esablish their EBC. It took 3 weeks from Kathmandu and he could see how the local area would benefit from some kind of link to the city. You have to remember that the whole country did not have a single, tarmacked main road until the mid-1970s.

What I think separates the 'expeditionary' types from the 'I wanna climb Everest' types is the willingness (or not) to assign and treat all members of the climbing team as equals. Just because the trip is expensive, does not mean that Sherpas are employees/servants of the climbers.

Many trek firms offer a climb where the climber doesn't have to carry his/her own kit, establish camp, cook, even remove their own (literal) crap. These can cost from £50,000 - £100,000. The climber doesn't even have to have much proper climbing experience. With the growth of the moneyed middle classes all over Asia, many more can afford to do this.

A bare-bones unguided solo trek including a permit and some basic comms/camaraderie can be as little as £5,000 but you're basically on your own.

If you consider that the Nepali wage level is only (at the most) 30% of European, with some aspects of the cost of living there (eg really decent health care) being at near-Western levels, then climbers with money to spend are a valuable income for many Nepalese.

Some mountains in Nepal are as (or more) challenging than Sagarmartha (Everest) and 14 more of the world's highest peaks are also there to climb, out of the 20 highest in the world. Annapurna I has a high death rate of around 30%, for example.

I'm happy to go on typing all about the Himalaya range and Nepal but don't want to bore the pants (kachha in Nepali) orf you all :) But once you've been waking up to this view every day for a few weeks, it does kind of spoil mountains for you forever (in a good way!)

DSCN2402.JPG
 
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AnonyJoolz said:
The whole of the area around Namche Bazaar and Lukla does kind of depend on Everest climbers for much of their existence. If (say) the U.N. and/or other countries were to subsidise the area, who decides how much and how?

The recent queues and incidents like the 1996 blizzard deaths have been as the result of people wanting to 'buy' the experience of climbing Everest without being willing to organise the logistics of a full-blown expedition such as Bonington's 1976 trip. Even on his well-organised non-commercial trek, someone died.

If the people and government of Nepal want to allow climbing, and benefit from it economically, how do they police it? There are also side-benefits to allowing commercial expeditions. Part of the expedition fee does go towards providing a helicopter rescue service which also ferries local people in emergencies FOC. Many of the pilots and medics associated with it are foreign workers willing to accept low local wages in order to 'volunteer' and also benefit the local area whilst also gaining valuable experience.

In fact, Lukla airstrip was partly built as a result of Sir Edmund Hillary's fundraising after he & Tenzing Norgay Sherpa trekked through the area to esablish their EBC. It took 3 weeks from Kathmandu and he could see how the local area would benefit from some kind of link to the city. You have to remember that the whole country did not have a single, tarmacked main road until the mid-1970s.

What I think separates the 'expeditionary' types from the 'I wanna climb Everest' types is the willingness (or not) to assign and treat all members of the climbing team as equals. Just because the trip is expensive, does not mean that Sherpas are employees/servants of the climbers.

Many trek firms offer a climb where the climber doesn't have to carry his/her own kit, establish camp, cook, even remove their own (literal) crap. These can cost from £50,000 - £100,000. The climber doesn't even have to have much proper climbing experience. With the growth of the moneyed middle classes all over Asia, many more can afford to do this.

A bare-bones unguided solo trek including a permit and some basic comms/camaraderie can be as little as £5,000 but you're basically on your own.

If you consider that the Nepali wage level is only (at the most) 30% of European, with some aspects of the cost of living there (eg really decent health care) being at near-Western levels, then climbers with money to spend are a valuable income for many Nepalese.

Some mountains in Nepal are as (or more) challenging than Sagarmartha (Everest) and 14 more of the world's highest peaks are also there to climb, out of the 20 highest in the world. Annapurna I has a high death rate of around 30%, for example.

I'm happy to go on typing all about the Himalaya range and Nepal but don't want to bore the pants (kachha in Nepali) orf you all :) But once you've been waking up to this view every day for a few weeks, it does kind of spoil mountains for you forever (in a good way!)
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I'm not saying it would be easy and I don't blame the local population for hiring on as helpers, just like I don't blame a lot of poachers killing rhinos in Africa - they have to put food on the table.

If we really want to save our planet and places such as Everest, the West and emerging nations need to step up. It's not in anyone's interest for Everest to be destroyed or turned into a shithole that in a few years no one is going to want to climb it anyway.

In the grand scheme of things the money the Nepalese/Chinese make is going to be pretty small. Also those Nepalese that benefit is a minoirty and the rest of the population has to go abroad to the middle east to find work.
 
Naughty_Felid said:
I'm not saying it would be easy and I don't blame the local population for hiring on as helpers, just like I don't blame a lot of poachers killing rhinos in Africa - they have to put food on the table.

If we really want to save our planet and places such as Everest, the West and emerging nations need to step up. It's not in anyone's interest for Everest to be destroyed or turned into a shithole that in a few years no one is going to want to climb it anyway.

In the grand scheme of things the money the Nepalese/Chinese make is going to be pretty small. Also those Nepalese that benefit is a minoirty and the rest of the population has to go abroad to the middle east to find work.
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I totally agree with you Naughty_Felid - my view has always been to pay the locals to preserve the local area, rather than exploit it. Nepal's birth rate has totally dropped off since widespread education and economic improvement, it's now just around 2.10 which is good news for their environment. Now we have to persuade visitors to take their trips to these kind of amazing places in a simpler, more sustainable manner...
 
Naughty_Felid said:
Ultimately climbing there should be banned and the whole area turned into a global place of scientific interest with Nepal being subsidized heavily to help them maintain it rather than whoring the mountains out.

Climbing is an incredibly selfish pastime and it's a microcosm of the selfishness that's destroying the planet.
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From my experience with Snowdonia - the 'tourists' are only interested in the highest mountain, and they leave the rest in relative peace. I suspect banning people from Everest would only move the problem somewhere else.

Darwin will sort it out eventually.
 
maximus otter said:
Exactly. They’re only *boo hiss* rich people *boo hiss* anyway.

:rolleyes:

maximus otter
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What makes you think they're all rich? As @AnonyJoolz says, you can get a pretty cheap "ticket" up the mountain away from the deluxe model. It's the numbers that's the problem, not their class.
 
maximus otter said:
Exactly. They’re only *boo hiss* rich people *boo hiss* anyway.

:rolleyes:

maximus otter
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Errrr - no I've not said that, and the well-organised non-commercial expeditions carry a really hefty price tag and concomitant hazard; likewise a solo trek package is in the reach of most people in the developed world and somewhat higher risk.

So... the danger lies in the mountain itself, its higher reaches and the time window/weather combined with the experience and fitness of the climbers. So let people try to reach it, and let them die trying if they wish. That's what I said. Attitudes can help or hinder.

Many Nepalese Sherpas have been injured or even died trying to save or assist other climbers, rich or not. It's not all about the lure of $$$ for many workers in this area of Nepal.
 
maximus otter said:
Exactly. They’re only *boo hiss* rich people *boo hiss* anyway.

:rolleyes:

maximus otter
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Maximus,

I'm sure that your cynicism here does have a legitimate target--some people are less interested in the fate of climbers because of an assumed socio-economic gulf, but there is no evidence that AnonyJoolz thinks such a thing and there was a fair amount of context around the quotation you snipped--it wasn't just, 'Let Them Die'.

The 'eye-roll' doesn't really help here either.
 
I thought you chaps might like to hear about a gentleman who works as a climbing guide and Sherpa/Sirdar, he was a notable survivor of the May 11th 1996 blizzard incident (The 2015 movie Everest was partly based on those events). Ang Dorje Sherpa's coming up to 50 years old, and now lives most of the time with his American wife & two children in the USA (they met at EBC in 2002) he works as a wind turbine mechanic over there.

Ang_Dorjee_Sherpa.jpg


He's also climbed Everest 20 times between 1992 and 2019 and, to quote Wikipedia: "He returns to climb Everest each spring, in part to be able to visit family as he passes on the way to the mountain. He completed his 19th summit of Everest in 2017"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang_Dorje_Sherpa

I can just imagine the family conversation when he pitches up at Auntie's gaff:

'Did you have a nice trip, nephew?'
'Oh yes, I called in to see Mum and Dad on my way back from the top of Everest, they send their love!'

:)
 
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AnonyJoolz said:
I thought you chaps might like to hear about a gentleman who works as a climbing guide and Sherpa/Sirdar, he was a notable survivor of the May 11th 1996 blizzard incident (The 2015 movie Everest was partly based on those events). Ang Dorje Sherpa's coming up to 50 years old, and now lives most of the time with his American wife & two children in the USA (they met at EBC in 2002) he works as a wind turbine mechanic over there.

Ang_Dorjee_Sherpa.jpg


He's also climbed Everest 20 times between 1992 and 2019 and, to quote Wikipedia: "He returns to climb Everest each spring, in part to be able to visit family as he passes on the way to the mountain. He completed his 19th summit of Everest in 2017"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang_Dorje_Sherpa

I can just imagine the family conversation when he pitches up at Auntie's gaff:

'Did you have a nice trip, nephew?'
'Oh yes, I called in to see Mum and Dad on my way back from the top of Everest, they send their love!'

:)
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20 times? .. that's just taking the piss! :cool:
 
Been immersed in Chomolungma (Mount Everest) videos for two days and have learned a fair bit about the place and the people who call it home. My ignorance at even its basic location has been somewhat addressed. It is incredibly interesting to learn about the physical, mental and spiritual effects brought on by walking through the ceiling of the world, and I begin to get a sense of the allure for the foreign pilgrims but moreso the awesome presence and character of the mountain as a venerated space. A fickle goddess indeed. Climbed but not conquered.
 
A podcast with a US mountaineer who's done Everest 8 times & talks about what's involved in the climb & the queues this time. Moves on to the modern popularity in climbing it, narrow windows to do so, cost in lives etc.
 
Sure. Here are some goodies.

The Race For Everest - doco on the many early efforts to navigate the path and obstacles, and the summiting of the mountain in 53. Very good doco.

A series of trailers for a doco called Dead Zone, which I haven't seen yet.
Everest ! Dead bodies on Mt Everest || A film by Sherpa team in Nepal


Lost in Everest's death zone. Michael Matthews
This one really pulled me into the ethical dilemmas team organisers face. Totally biased against OTT though. Only shows the perspectives of the subject's family and some of his climbing partners. The aftermath is as interesting as the expedition, but is also not part of this doco. Look into it.


Storm Over Everest (2008) 1996 Disaster Documentary by PBS Frontline
Very affecting doco on the tragedy and triumph of the1996 season - infamous year in mountain lore.

Climbing MT Everest with a Mountain on My Back The Sherpa's Story BBC full documentary 2013 nepal
As described. Good pov on the unsung enablers of the foreign hoarde.

Everest; Beyond The Limit - I just finished watching season 1; . Follows Russel Brice's team from prep to descent conclusion over 6 episodes; 2006 season.
Starts here
Bit over-dramatic but really gripping and incredible footage. 2006 was a tragic year in terms of fatalities. This expedition contacts a dying man (David Sharpe) and is forced, controversially, to leave him to perish. There's also a doco on that controversy which I haven' watched.
 
Queston:- Who pays for search parties, rescue missions, collecting dead bodies etc?

Do the climbers pay into some sort of insurance scheme to finance helicopters and the like?
 
Recycled1 said:
Queston:- Who pays for search parties, rescue missions, collecting dead bodies etc?

Do the climbers pay into some sort of insurance scheme to finance helicopters and the like?
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The air above 25,000 feet is too thin for choppers, so no airlift possible. From what I've learned, the environment at high altitude makes any form of permanent infrastructure impossible. The winters just sweep all from the surface.

Hooved animals such as yaks can not climb sheer faces or ladders, so human is the only beast of burden. Also, the logistics of carrying a body down those faces and ladders places the Sherpa in far too much danger, and physical energy is at an extreme premium. You simply can not carry more than your own weight and the equipment every individual needs to survive the small window of time a human can be at that altitude alive.

If you can't walk out of there on your own two feet, you become a part of the mountain.
 
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