• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

History Rewritten: Myths Busted & New Truths Uncovered

Did the Vikings Get a Bum Rap?
A Yale historian wants us to rethink the terrible tales about the Norse.

The Vikings gave no quarter when they stormed the city of Nantes, in what is now western France, in June 843—not even to the monks barricaded in the city's cathedral. "The heathens mowed down the entire multitude of priest, clerics, and laity," according to one witness account. Among the slain, allegedly killed while celebrating the Mass, was a bishop who later was granted sainthood.

To modern readers the attack seems monstrous, even by the standards of medieval warfare. But the witness account contains more than a touch of hyperbole, writes Anders Winroth, a Yale history professor and author of the book The Age of the Vikings, a sweeping new survey. What's more, he says, such exaggeration was often a feature of European writings about the Vikings.

When the account of the Nantes attack is scrutinized, "a more reasonable image emerges," he writes. After stating that the Vikings had killed the "entire multitude," for instance, the witness contradicts himself by noting that some of the clerics were taken into captivity. And there were enough people left—among the "many who survived the massacre"—to pay ransom to get prisoners back.

In short, aside from ignoring the taboo against treating monks and priests specially, the Vikings acted not much differently from other European warriors of the period, Winroth argues.

In 782, for instance, Charlemagne, now heralded as the original unifier of Europe, beheaded 4,500 Saxon captives on a single day. "The Vikings never got close to that level of efficiency," Winroth says, drily.

Just how bad were the Vikings?

Winroth is among the scholars who believe the Vikings were no more bloodthirsty than other warriors of the period. But they suffered from bad public relations—in part because they attacked a society more literate than their own, and therefore most accounts of them come from their victims. Moreover, because the Vikings were pagan, they played into a Christian story line that cast them as a devilish, malign, outside force.

"There is this general idea of the Vikings as being exciting and other, as something that we can't understand from our point of view—which is simply continuing the story line of the victims in their own time," Winroth says. "One starts to think of them in storybook terms, which is deeply unfair." ...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... gn=Content
 
King Harold 'may have survived Battle of Hastings' claim

An underground scan is being carried out at Waltham Abbey in Essex in a hunt for evidence that King Harold survived the Battle of Hastings.
Novelist and amateur historian Peter Burke wants to test his theory that the king recovered and lived for 40 years after the battle on 14 October 1066.
He is challenging historical records which state that King Harold was killed by William the Conqueror's soldiers.
Battle Historical Society said the theory was unlikely to be true.

Mr Burke is sponsoring a search for the remains of King Harold, widely believed to be buried in the grounds of Waltham Abbey.
He said the alternative version of Harold's death comes from a 12th Century document, Vita Harold, in the British Library which he found while researching his trilogy The Promise.

"It was taken from a young novice priest who took the last rites of an old pilgrim called Christian who declared on his death bed that he was Harold Godwinson, the last Saxon king," said Mr Burke.
"He was hidden in Winchester and brought back to health by a Moorish nurse. He tried to raise an army in Germany but they weren't interested and he spent his life travelling as a pilgrim."

The scan, taking place on the 948th anniversary of the Battle of Hastings, is being carried out by the geological survey company which helped to locate the remains of King Richard III in 2012 beneath a car park in Leicester.

Neil Clephane-Cameron, from Battle and District Historical Society, said the story that King Harold survived the battle did not sit comfortably with him.
"The contemporary accounts, both Norman and Saxon, all give the fact that Harold was killed at the battle," he said.

"Even if there is a body at Waltham it doesn't mean that he necessarily survived but it might confirm whether the accounts are correct because there should be be fairly distinctive giveaways."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-29612656
 
rynner2 said:
Now, a documentary about 'Winkle' Brown himself, with footage of Mozzies at sea:

Britain's Greatest Pilot: The Extraordinary Story of Captain Winkle Brown

Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown, 95, recounts his flying experiences and adventures up to and during the Second World War in this documentary illustrated with archive footage and Captain Brown's own photos.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... nkle-brown

First shown: 3 June 2014
Duration 60 min.
For those who missed that, there's an article about him:

Eric 'Winkle' Brown: The man who seemed not to notice danger
By Luke Jones, BBC News Magazine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30039300
 
rynner2 said:
rynner2 said:
Now, a documentary about 'Winkle' Brown himself, with footage of Mozzies at sea:

Britain's Greatest Pilot: The Extraordinary Story of Captain Winkle Brown

Captain Eric 'Winkle' Brown, 95, recounts his flying experiences and adventures up to and during the Second World War in this documentary illustrated with archive footage and Captain Brown's own photos.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... nkle-brown

First shown: 3 June 2014
Duration 60 min.
For those who missed that, there's an article about him:

Eric 'Winkle' Brown: The man who seemed not to notice danger
By Luke Jones, BBC News Magazine

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30039300

He was the guest on Desert Island Discs on Radio 4 this past week.
 
When Herbert G. Claudius's family would ask him if he'd ever sunk an enemy submarine during his decades in the U.S. Navy, Claudius would say that he thought he did once. He'd seen oil and debris after a fierce battle he'd led against a German U-boat in the Gulf of Mexico in 1942.

But Claudius could never be sure that he'd sunk the sub.

The U.S. Navy certainly didn't seem to think so. After the battle, just 25 miles (40 kilometers) from the U.S. mainland, the Navy removed Claudius from command and sent him to anti-sub-warfare school.

But on Tuesday, Claudius was posthumously vindicated at the Pentagon, as the U.S. Secretary of the Navy announced that his ship had indeed fired the depth charges that sank German U-boat U-166.

87151_270x172-cb1418849823.jpg

"Seventy years later, we now know that [Claudius's] report after the action was absolutely correct," Navy Secretary Ray Mabus said in a small ceremony attended by members of Claudius's family. ...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...u-boat-u-166-gulf-mexico-archaeology-history/

"[Claudius's ship] did sink that U-boat, and it's never too late to set the record straight," Mabus said, as he presented the late captain with a posthumous Legion of Merit with a Combat "V" device, which recognizes heroism in battle.
 
Maybe the Apocrypha are?

I start my course on NT texts in TCD this pm.

From what little I know about the Apocrypha, I would hazard a guess that like most pre - Enlightenment history they are written with an agenda in mind. Off the top of my head the best example I can think of is Bede's History of the Anglo-Saxon people. It's full of dates,but very little "real" history. Why? 'Cos his main aim was to record the dates so that the church could make sure it got its feast dates right.

But don't take my word for it, my interest is strictly post French Revolution.

Sounds like an interesting course..part of a BA?
 
From what little I know about the Apocrypha, I would hazard a guess that like most pre - Enlightenment history they are written with an agenda in mind. Off the top of my head the best example I can think of is Bede's History of the Anglo-Saxon people. It's full of dates,but very little "real" history. Why? 'Cos his main aim was to record the dates so that the church could make sure it got its feast dates right.

But don't take my word for it, my interest is strictly post French Revolution.

Sounds like an interesting course..part of a BA?

Disaster!

I was given the wrong room number for the lecture. By the time I got the right location it would have been 25 minutes into the lecture. They admitted the mistake. An Act of God.

Its an independent module. In TCD you may access a wide range of courses provided you accept that the totality may not add up to any qualification. In the last term I did Europe: Politics & Culture 1700 - 1815. Term before: A Survey of US history.
 
Its an independent module. In TCD you may access a wide range of courses provided you accept that the totality may not add up to any qualification. In the last term I did Europe: Politics & Culture 1700 - 1815. Term before: A Survey of US history.

That sounds like a nice idea. I'd love to go back to Hull and do something similar. A short course on the English Civil War would be my first choice. Alas, it doesn't seem to work like that....I could go and do an MA, but there is the small matter of 4 or 5 grand to find first.

Good luck...and double check the room number in future!
 
Lends a whole new meaning to "My my, Miss American Pie",
It seems that the truth about this song will shortly be revealed:

What do American Pie's lyrics mean?
By James Morgan BBC News, Washington DC

As the original manuscript for Don Mclean's 1971 classic goes up for auction, fans may finally discover what the "Song of the Century" is really about. So what are the popular theories?
When people ask Don McLean what does American Pie really mean, he likes to reply: "It means I never have to work again. ";)

His eight-minute-long "rock and roll American dream" became an anthem for an entire generation - who memorised every line.
Their children in turn grew up singing it - fascinated by the mysterious lyrics with their cryptic references to 50s innocence, the turbulent 60s, and 70s disillusion.
Who broke the church bells? Who was the jester who sang for the king and queen? And what really was revealed "the day the music died"?
There are fan websites entirely dedicated to solving these mysteries, where literary detectives pore over the clues, line by line.
The song's 69-year-old architect has always remained tight-lipped.

But now at long, long last, his inspirations behind "The Song of the Century" are to be revealed as McLean puts his original manuscript up for auction on Tuesday.
These 16 pages of handwritten notes, which have lain hidden away in a box in his home for 43 years, are expected to fetch $1.5m (£1m) at Christie's in New York.
But for McLean aficionados there is a greater prize.
The drafts, unedited, reveal the creative process behind American Pie "from beginning to end", according to Tom Lecky of Christie's.
"You see great moments of inspiration, you see him attempting things that then didn't work out. The direction that he was going in that he then didn't want to follow.
"Those words that we all know so well weren't fixed in the beginning."

As the singer himself said recently: "The writing and the lyrics will divulge everything there is to divulge."
For McLean scholars with pet theories, there could be bad news on the doorstep. This could be the day that they die. :(

But before we sing bye bye, and in honour of the American Pie fans everywhere, the BBC News Magazine takes a nostalgic trip back through the song's six enigmatic verses, and the popular theories that have grown up around them.

etc...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32196117
 
It looks like Don Mclean will never have to work again - again!

American Pie lyrics sell for $1.2m
7th April 2015
The original manuscript of Don McLean's American Pie has sold for $1.2m (£806,000) at a New York auction.
The 16-page draft had been expected to fetch as much as $1.5m (£1m) at the Christie's sale.
McLean had hinted in February the original manuscript would reveal the song's lyrical meaning - which had always been kept a mystery.
"The writing and the lyrics will divulge everything there is to divulge," he said.
The 69-year-old previously acknowledged the beginning of the song is about the death of Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and the Big Bopper - Jiles P Richardson - in a plane crash, but has remained elusive about the rest of the track.

The mystery has made American Pie one of the most debated songs in music history.
McLean said writing the song was "a mystical trip into his past".
The singer said he decided to sell the manuscript, which includes multiple drafts with handwritten notes and deletions, on a whim.
The eight-minute song was number one in the US for four weeks and reached number two in the UK singles chart in 1972.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-32208584
 
American Pie means "Boo hoo, modern music is rubbish and it was so much better in the old days."
 
I know everything about that song, can't even remember where I learned it all. It's no mystery to me.
 
I know everything about that song, can't even remember where I learned it all. It's no mystery to me.
But did whoever told you 'everything' actually get it right? The original lyrics, notes, etc, should clear up the wrong guesses. I expect a lot of websites might have to be edited! ;)
 
I love American Pie and still regard Madonna's cover version as the most pointless of all cover versions ... to be honest though, I only got into it when I was at college because it was the longest playing song on the jukebox for 50p ...
 
First heard it in McClean's BBC 'In Concert' performance in 1972. This was before the American Pie album came out.

Recorded it on my little cassette recorder, learned all the songs, never even heard the actual American Pie album until years later!
 
Soon everyone will know more about Eddie than he does:

Britain's most famous ski jumper, "Eddie the Eagle" Edwards, has been warned a movie being made about his life is 90% "made up".

The retired sportsman, who lives in Stroud, Gloucestershire, became a hero at the Calgary Winter Olympics in 1988 despite finishing a distant last.

A film, starring Welsh actor Taron Egerton as Eddie, is currently being filmed and due for release next year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-33025892
 
Years ago, Eddie lived near me.
A few years ago, there was still a sign on his house after he'd gone, saying 'Mad Eddie's Cottage'.
:cool:
 
Nazi sympathiser and former King, the Duke of Windsor, 'wanted England bombed', archives reveal
King Edward VIII, who later became the Duke of Windsor and is widely regarded as a Nazi sympathiser, once argued that bombing England could bring peace by ending WWII, it has emerged.

Correspondence kept in the Royal Archives between the British royal family and their German relatives in the run up to WWII remains confidential.

However, information pieced together from open archives across 30 countries, including Germany, Spain and Russia, has revealed the close relationship some members of the European aristocracy had with the Nazis.

Dr Karina Urbach, senior research fellow at the Institute of Historical Research at the School of Advance Study at the University of London, has uncovered how the Duke of Windsor told Don Javier Bermejillo, his old friend and Spanish diplomat, that the British royal blamed “the Jews, the Reds and the Foreign Office for the war”.

Writing for The Conversation, Dr Urbach explained how Windsor told Bermejillo on 25 June 1940 that “if one bombed England effectively this could bring peace.

“Bermejillo concluded that the Duke of Windsor seemed very much to hope that this would occur: 'He wants peace at any price.',” wrote Dr Urbach.

She added: “This report went to Franco and was then passed on to the Germans. The bombing of Britain started on 10 July.” ...

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-england-bombed-archives-reveal-31287014.html

 
That's odd, Madonna said he was a really nice guy...
 
Rolling Stones plaque 'disgusts' Bill Wyman
25 June 2015

A plaque marking the meeting between Mick Jagger and Keith Richards is to be replaced after The Rolling Stones' former bassist Bill Wyman objected.
The blue plaque, unveiled at Dartford station in February, says the pair "went on to form The Rolling Stones".
But Wyman complained, saying guitarist Brian Jones created The Rolling Stones and enlisted the other members.
"I've never upset a Rolling Stone before but we are going to put it right," said councillor Jeremy Kite.

Jagger and Richards both went to Wentworth Primary School but met up again on platform two of Dartford station in Kent on 17 October 1961.
They bonded over a love of the blues and formed a musical friendship that still endures.

Wyman, who left the band in 1993, told BBC Radio 5 live the plaque was disgusting.
"Mick Jagger and Keith Richards didn't create the Rolling Stones - they were part of The Rolling Stones like all of us," he said.
"Brian Jones wanted to form a blues band and he enlisted each member one by one.
"He gave the name The Rolling Stones, he chose the music and he was the leader
."
Guitarist Jones drowned in the swimming pool of his home at Cotchford Farm in Hartfield, East Sussex in 1969 after taking a cocktail of drink and drugs.

Dartford council leader Mr Kite said the plaque was intended to commemorate the meeting of the two Dartford sons, not the formation of The Rolling Stones.
But he said it would be taken down and replaced by another with new wording.
"Accuracy in history is really, really important and we want it to be right," he said.
"We will create a new plaque which makes it clear that this is where Mick met Keith and went on to be part of The Rolling Stones."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-33277997
 
Nazi sympathiser and former King, the Duke of Windsor, 'wanted England bombed', archives reveal
King Edward VIII, who later became the Duke of Windsor and is widely regarded as a Nazi sympathiser, once argued that bombing England could bring peace by ending WWII, it has emerged.

Correspondence kept in the Royal Archives between the British royal family and their German relatives in the run up to WWII remains confidential.

However, information pieced together from open archives across 30 countries, including Germany, Spain and Russia, has revealed the close relationship some members of the European aristocracy had with the Nazis.

Dr Karina Urbach, senior research fellow at the Institute of Historical Research at the School of Advance Study at the University of London, has uncovered how the Duke of Windsor told Don Javier Bermejillo, his old friend and Spanish diplomat, that the British royal blamed “the Jews, the Reds and the Foreign Office for the war”.

Writing for The Conversation, Dr Urbach explained how Windsor told Bermejillo on 25 June 1940 that “if one bombed England effectively this could bring peace.

“Bermejillo concluded that the Duke of Windsor seemed very much to hope that this would occur: 'He wants peace at any price.',” wrote Dr Urbach.

She added: “This report went to Franco and was then passed on to the Germans. The bombing of Britain started on 10 July.” ...

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-england-bombed-archives-reveal-31287014.html

This was the same guy who was awarded a Military Cross for visiting the front lines a few times in world war 1 and visited Hitler in 36 despite the British government advising against it.
 
As the centenary of the 1916 Easter Rising approaches, the history wars in Ireland still rage
Will poking around in the embers of Irish history rekindle old flames?


The creeping barrage of First World War centenaries moves inexorably on. Gallipoli 2015 is now behind us. In 2016 the French will turn their sights on Verdun while the British target the Somme. In both cases the commemorations will tell us as much about the present as the past, exposing divergent national attitudes on either side of the Channel towards European reconciliation and integration. But the most present-centred anniversaries in 2016 will take place in Ireland. Here, history remains particularly raw.

The Easter Rising of 1916 has become the foundational myth of the modern Irish state. The revolt itself was a quixotic act, involving no more than 1,500 people, and the whole thing was crushed within a week at the cost of 450 lives, more than half of them civilians. But the crass brutality of the British military afterwards, including several thousand arrests and 16 executions, helped turn the “rainbow chasers” into national martyrs. The ruined General Post Office on Sackville Street in Dublin, the rebels’ short-lived headquarters, became the iconic symbol of the rising. ...

Clinging tight to Easter 1916 – told as a heroic saga of national resurrection, of good v evil – has therefore been a convenient, even necessary, narrative in Ireland. But this will be much harder to sustain a century on, as is clear from two recent books by Maurice Walsh and Diarmaid Ferriter, and from others in the pre-centenary literary build-up. For one thing, rich new sources have become available in the past decade or so. In 2003 the Irish government finally opened the records of the Bureau of Military History (BMH), including over 1,700 statements taken in the 1940s and 1950s from veterans of the rising and the war of independence. And in 2014 it started to make available online the Military Service Pensions Collection (MSPC), nearly 300,000 files from veterans of 1916-23 who set down detailed accounts of their service to the state in order to secure pensions or compensation. ...
http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...easter-rising-history-wars-ireland-still-rage
 
Back
Top