• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Homo Floresiensis ('Hobbits'; Small Archaic Humans)

I bet the Skeptical Enquirer gang are hovering off the ground and foaming at the mouth with anger right now... :D
 
Worth The Price Of Admission Alone!

Emperor said:
Its worth grabbing the Guardian today as they have a big piece by Hnery Gee (nature's editor) with diagrams, etc.):[/B]

Thursday October 28, 2004
The Guardian

...

... The evidence for the coexistence of humans and Neanderthals in Europe for at least 10,000 years until Neanderthals disappeared around 30,000 years ago, and the fact that anthropologists have known for years of the multiple lineages of prehumans living in Africa between 4-2m years -has done little to dent the robust idea that humans are so distinct from the rest of the animal world that they rule the earth by virtue of inherent perfection, or divine fiat.

The Flores finds could change all that with a single stroke.

For one thing, they underscore the fact of human diversity until very recent times. "Maybe little folk from Flores will hammer the point home more effectively because they are so different in anatomy but so close in time," says Tim White. "How will the creationists cope?"

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1337198,00.html
If ever living mini Floresians do turn up, then don't be surprised if Creationists try to prove that they are either demons, or proof that Satan and the Anti-Christ exist and that they're trying to trick gullible scientists and the public.

Nice to see folk tales and oral tradition turning out, apparently so triumphantly, to represent true and accurate historical events.

Wouldn't be surprised if there turns out to be a supernatural twist to the tale yet, though. There is quite a gap between the age of the remains and the apparent freshness and immediacy of the tales.
 
18,000 yr old 3ft hominid in Flores - Orang Pendek? Yowie? H

Saw this on the BBC national news last night - they have found skeletons of a 3ft tall hominid in a cave on the Indonesian island of Flores (very close to Komodo of "dragon" fame) which are only 18,000 years old, meaning these creatures coexisted with modern H. sapiens for at least 20,000 years...

(a few UK news links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3948165.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/science/story/0,12996,1337726,00.html
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story.jsp?story=576797 )

Inevitably, it seems this species has been dubbed the "Hobbit"...
:rolleyes:

This has to be an incredibly exciting find for cryptozoology - the description of this creature almost exactly matches that of the Orang Pendek, which there is now no excuse at all for not mounting a serious expedition to find... There are similar legends apparently in many parts of SE Asia, including Flores itself according to some of the news reports, and Heuvelmans i think documents accounts of a war between humans and small hominids not long before European colonisation in Sri Lanka...

Then of course there's the Australian Yowie or "Brown Jack" and the stories about its capability of interbreeding with humans... which, if this thing was descended from H. erectus it probably would have been able to...

It also follows well known patterns of species becoming pygmified on small islands, such as the Bering Straits mini-mammoths...

With first the Bili Ape and now this, hominid cryptids have to have now gained very sudden "mainstream" credibility...

:eek!!!!: :cool:
 
Goldstein said:
OK, didn't look in Fortean News Stories. But can we keep this here? I think there ought to be a thread about this in the Cryptozoology forum... it's BIG (little) news, after all... ;)

We'll keep all the reports together and as it has implciations for a number of fields we'll keep it in Fortean News (it could just as easily go in New Science or General Fortean - other forums that this story has been posted to. You can always tell a big news Fortean story when it gets posted 5 or 6 different times in a number of forums ;) ).

Some kind links there - it has big implications for a number of alleged creatures out in that part of the world and I'm sure now this is taken a but more seriously and people start digging more will emerge.
 
Fictional 'nasty little bleeders' from Lovecraft... sorry.

Anyone seen my Jay Garrick 1940s hub cap with wings?
 
Sorry mate. ones got alloys and you wouldnt like the design of the other...
 
I'm re-reading Mothman Prophecies at the mo' and earlier read a passing mention to Ikals of Mexico (3 ft creatures, covered in black hair). Which then made me think of the breaking news of Homo floresiensis.

Apologies if these links are too *wacko* for the thread (UFO's and all that) but some of the theories that are being mentioned, e.g. that the evolution of H. floresiensis may not have been individual to S E Asia and could possibly explain the folklore and findings in other places around the world, could be pretty plausible IMHO. Well it might explain some of the myths anyway...


from

MESO-AMERICAN MYSTERY ZONES

By Scott Corrales
The following article is from the June 1995 issue of FATE
Magazine.

[...]
There is no dearth of dwarfish remains either. Early last
century, a mound of human skeletons was found in Tennessee.
These skeletons were only two feet tall. According to John
Haywood's book "Natural and Aboriginal History of Tennessee"
physicians in Nashville stated that the bones were those of
fully developed adults. These little people could have been
the occupants of the great cities of the Zapotec culture in
the Tehuantepec Isthmus of Mexico, or along with the dwarves
of Uxmal, the original architects behind such works.

Reports from isolated areas of the world indicate that dimi-
nutive beings could be living in caves or in the vast unex-
plored jungles of South America.
If the connection between
the now-concealed former tenant and UFOs is valid, it might
be a reason for the preponderance of sightings in Amazonia,
the Puerto Rican rainforests, and so on.

[...]

http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/files/New-Files/950930/ufo-sa.txt

a bit more on Haywood and tales from Tennessee:

[...]

On Saturday, July 29, 1820, Mr. Lane went to the home of Captain Simon Doyle to search for further discoveries. Here he opened two small graves which contained beads, vases, and other trinkets. The bones had to be examined in the grave where they lay for they fell to pieces when touched. On this farm was found a large and closely connected burying ground. Mr. Anderson and Captain Doyle had previously opened many and both said they believed hundreds might be found. There is no discernible rising on the surface, by reason of these graves; they are found by thrusting an iron tool into the ground so deep as to strike the covering rock.

In August, 1820, Mr. Lane and his son, Jacob Lane, Esquire, opened another grave just twenty-two inches long. In this they found the skeleton and usual trinkets. The body measured as accurately as possible, was found to be two feet and ten inches.

[...]

Haywood has given a most interesting account of the bones and skeletons found in the caves, mounds, and graves of the county. There were four caves in which bones of monstrous size were found, three of which contained human bones, while in the fourth were bones of a huge animal. The three mounds opened by the early settlers of which Haywood gives an account showed skeletons of human beings of extraordinary size usually surrounded by trinkets of various types as beads, pots, stones and images. Many graves were opened near 1820 by various men and many of them revealed the large skeletons, but the remains of many Pigmies were unearthed. In four widely separated sections of the county this type of grave was discovered.

http://www.danielhaston.com/history/tn-history/white-county/legends-whiteco2.htm
 
Stories of little people abound. We must also remember that some of the earliest Homo Sapiens Sapiens remains were of very small adults.

Not to mention the innumerable miniature stone tools of which there must be examples in every museum in the world....
 
Didn't the Romans who invaded Britain refer to a stunted, dark skinned people they encountered other than the Britons/Celts?

I'm sure there was a load of stuff that was popular inthe 20s and 30s about that stuff... and Margaret Murray refers to such legends...
 
-I pretty much agree with Morris on this, I'm fairly sure Robert Winston will probably be up next for a soundbite...

It is the BBC after all.


Eton or the zoo?
By Desmond Morris
Author and anthropologist

The discovery of a new species of human poses exciting questions about who we are. How would we treat this close relative if one were found alive today?

Every time an intrepid anthropologist discovers an old tooth or part of a jawbone that might possibly have come from one of our ancient ancestors, there is a flurry of excitement.

Before long a whole skull, then a whole body and finally a whole human society has been deduced from this tiny fragment.

We are so desperate to know where we came from that this game of inventing the past has been played over and over again.

The truth, if we are honest, is that there still remains a huge gap in our knowledge of what happened between the time of our remote ancestors and our more recent ones.

What occurred in that "great gap", several million years ago, is anybody's guess - and guesses there have been aplenty.

But the new discovery of a tiny, 3ft tall, flat-faced, bipedal "ape-man" on the Indonesian island of Flores is rather different.

Here, the skeletal remains are not only much more detailed, but they are found in caves along with delicate stone tools and evidence of fire-making and the hunting of large game.

What is more, these hunters existed as recently as 12,000 years ago and, who knows, living groups of them may still be lingering on in odd corners even today.

This is shattering news and will create fascinating problems for both political and religious leaders.

Pet cemetery?

Suppose for a moment that a living tribe of these beings is discovered, how should they be treated?

Are they merely advanced apes, or are they miniature humans?

If an explorer brought back one of their infants to study, would you put him down for Eton or the Zoo?

If he died, would he be buried in consecrated ground or a pet cemetery?

His very existence among us would make us question all over again, what it is to be human.

We are not used to this because our ancestors successfully killed off all our close relatives.

This has created a chasm between us and the other animals, a chasm so big that religion went as far as to say that we are not even related to them. Humans have souls and they do not.

Darwin put a stop to this nonsense with his theory of evolution, but amazingly the blindingly obvious truth he discovered is still resisted by large sections of the human population.

They stubbornly continue to insist that we are some kind of special creation.

The arrival of "Mini-Man" is going to give them nightmares.

How can he be "semi-special"? That won't make sense. He can't very well have a semi-soul.

So Mini-Man might just be the evolutionary jewel that, once and for all, sets human beings firmly in the animal kingdom, where scientifically they belong.

Experimental cages

A great deal will depend on what happens when we first meet living examples of this new species.

If, when we greet them, they go OOARGH, OOARGH, like chimps, they will doubtless be classified as rather advanced apes.

"In theory, the existence of Mini-Man should destroy religion, but I can already hear the fanatics claiming that he has been put on earth by the Devil"

And the poor things may even end up in experimental cages. They would have no more rights than the chimpanzees do to this day.

If on the other hand we discover that they have some kind of spoken language and we can learn that language, or alternatively they can learn ours, there we are into a whole new ball-game.

When it comes down to it, being able to talk is really what defines humanity.

If Mini-Man talks, then, let's face it, there are two species of human beings on this planet and not one, as we always thought.

If you shot a Mini-Man it would be murder. If you cooked one and ate it, it would be cannibalism. If you experimented on one it would be torture.

Test of faith

Personally, I long to be told that he can talk.

It will make him a much more effective bridge between us and the apes, forcing religions to re-examine many of their basic beliefs.

In theory, the existence of Mini-Man should destroy religion, but I can already hear the fanatics claiming that he has been put on earth by the Devil simply to test our faith.

Which brings up an even more intriguing question: does Mini-Man perform special burial rituals and does he therefore believe in an afterlife?

This is something that field workers should be able to discover even without encountering a living tribe.

If the island of Flores is not quickly awash with teams of eager investigators I shall be very surprised, and I can't wait to hear the results of their explorations.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/magazine/3964579.stm
Published: 2004/10/29 09:55:51 GMT

© BBC MMIV
 
We are not used to this because our ancestors successfully killed off all our close relatives.

Thats never been proved.

This has created a chasm between us and the other animals, a chasm so big that religion went as far as to say that we are not even related to them. Humans have souls and they do not.

An absurd notion and one never believed for a minute by the great majority of people, who happen to be non-xtian.

----------------------------------------

Isnt this shades of H Beam Pipers `talk and build a fire` argument in his famous and charming SF `Little Fuzzy`??

The legal definition of a human spciety being that thjey can do both?

I imagine the two skills would be linked. You have to be a fair communicator to pass on the ability to make fire

also, a fire would be a great conversation point..."our cave hasnt one of those. we must order one from Ikea"
 
An absurd notion and one never believed for a minute by the great majority of people, who happen to be non-xtian.

Never noticed the somewhat robust attitude the Chinese specifically, and Asia in general, have to animal welfare? By bio-mass alone they ARE the majority of people...
 
Maybe Mother Shipton was right....


An Ape shall appear in a Leap year
That shall put all womankind in fear
And Adam's make shall be disputed
And Roman faith shall like rooted,
And England will turn around.
 
Hi all,
Im trying to get in touch with Andrew Sanderson and/or Adam Davies with regards to the Orang pendek hair they found in Sumatra. This is with regards to getting it DNA tested (properly, like). I work at the Ancient Biomolecules Centre in Oxford (abc.zoo.ox.ac.uk) as a PhD student and ive been asked by my supervisor to use my Fortean links to track these guys down. As predicted Homo florisiensis has given Cryptozoo a huge increase in possible respectability, and 13K is practically yesterday, geologically speaking. We've spoken to Colin Groves (but he has lost contact with the guys).
All help much appreciated
Ross
 
Once they have recovered from UnCon you can probably get their contact details via the Centre for Fortean Zoology:

http://www.cfz.org.uk

I'm sure the CFZ would also be interested in speaking to you too as they are also on the trail of the Orang Pendek (and many other interesting mystery cryptids) and while I don't think they currently have any untested hair they have big plans on many fronts.

If you CC an email to Jonathan Downes and Richard Freeman they should be able to get back to you:

http://www.cfz.org.uk/admin/personnel/
 
Hugo Cornwall said:
Didn't the Romans who invaded Britain refer to a stunted, dark skinned people they encountered other than the Britons/Celts?

I'm sure there was a load of stuff that was popular inthe 20s and 30s about that stuff... and Margaret Murray refers to such legends...

I don't know if there are any actual classical sources for this, but you might be thinking of Arthur Machen. In several of his stories (most specifically the short "Novel of the Black Seal" from The Three Imposters) he posits that Britain was occupied by a race of small pre-human people, and that Celtic faerie lore derives from early human contact with them.
 
Yes, a lot of authors used that idea... Machen, Howard, Smith and Lovecraft all used the concept, but Murray seems to be one of the origins of their legend spinning. Spence also refers to some ideas very similar, so whether there is an old discredited source, bearing in mind, the way they now say the British Isles were populated is different to what it was 50 years ago, let alone 70. Things drift in and out of fashion in Science... it may drift back into people's tenured perveiw...
 
Tiny Humans Are Weighed In - What Odds Yeti, Nessie, Aliens ?

AFTER THE' TINY HUMAN', WHAT ODDS NESSIE, YETI, ALIENS, BIG FOOT?

Following the discovery of a previously unknown species of Human Being, bookmakers William Hill have issued odds for the discovery of other unlikely creatures or beings.

'Mindful that at any given time proof of the existence of either the Loch Ness Monster or intelligent extra-terrestrial life could cost us over one million pounds, we have to be cautious' said Hill's spokesman Graham Sharpe, 'Fortunately for us we have no record of any bets being taken for the discovery of a new species of human being confirmed.'

William Hill offer:

500/1 that conclusive proof of the current existence of the LOCH NESS MONSTER will be authenticated by the Natural History Museum on or before December 31, 2005.

1000/1 that incontrovertible proof of the existence of GHOSTS will be forthcoming by Dec 31, 2005.

250/1 that the UK Prime Minister will officially confirm the current existence of UFOs of extra-terrestrial origin on or before Dec 31, 2005.

250/1 that conclusive proof of the curent existence of the YETI will be authenticated by the Natural History Museum on or before Dec 31, 2005.

100/1 that the UK Prime Minister will confirm the current existence of intelligent ALIEN LIFE of extra-terrestrial origin on or before Dec 31, 2005.

'We have also taken bets on the existence of the TASMANIAN TIGER (50/1); the MOA (66/1);BIG FOOT (100/1) while a customer from Belfast has bet that a 90 ft long snake will be discovered.We are always happy to consider similar bets on currently unknown or unproven species' added Sharpe.

-----------------
Further information...Graham Sharpe...0208 918 3731

http://www.williamhillmedia.com/index_template.asp?file=3625
 
Sun 31 Oct 2004

Scientist to unlock secrets of hobbit-like Flores Man

STEPHEN BREEN

A PROFESSOR at a Scottish university whose pioneering work helped confirm the discovery of a tiny hobbit-like creature is planning more research to find out how the species evolved.

The revelation that the 3ft-high creature - labelled Flores Man - lived on a remote Indonesian island as recently as 18,000 years ago was hailed by scientists last week as the biggest breakthrough in evolution for decades.

Radiocarbon dating techniques developed by Professor Michael Bird of St Andrews University and a team of international scientists confirmed the hobbit skull dated from around 18,000 years ago, meaning the creatures existed at the same time as humans.

Now Bird plans to travel to Flores to research how the environment changed, which may provide clues on how the dwarves evolved before dying out.

Bird intends to study bird and bat excrement in caves dating back thousands of years. The deposits and pollen contained within them can give an indication of what the creatures ate. This in turn will shed light on how the environment has changed over time.

"It might tell us how Flores Man made its way in the world, what resources they had and how might they have adapted in their environment," Bird told Scotland on Sunday yesterday.

"It is not well known what the climate was like at the time. Was it open savannah? Was it rainforest? If so, when was it?

"If this species lived from 800,000 years ago, evolving from Homo erectus, during that time their environment would change.

"I’ve done this work before in Borneo and I would like to extend that to other areas and hopefully next year I will work in Flores if there are suitable deposits available."

Bird and his team developed the charcoal dating techniques used in the Flores discovery while working at the Australian National University trying to discover when the first Aborigines reached Australia.

In 2001, they received charcoal from Flores from archeologist Michael Morewood which he thought might help date artefacts found in a limestone cave.

The oldest dates were comparatively young, 13,000 years ago,

but earlier this year, Morewood sent further samples which had been found at the site of the fascinating discovery of the skull and skeleton of a 3ft female. They proved the skeleton dated from 18,000 years ago, leading scientists to completely rethink their theories on evolution.

The discovery suggests the species may have been on Flores from at least 74,000 years ago, meaning they overlapped significantly with Homo sapiens.

"It is arguably the most significant discovery concerning our own genus in my lifetime," said anthropologist Bernard Wood of George Washington University, who reviewed the Flores research independently.

Discoveries simply "don’t get any better than that", said Robert Foley and Marta Mirazon Lahr of Cambridge University in a written analysis.

The brain is a quarter of the size of a human brain, comparable to the brains of transitional pre-humans from Africa dating from more than three million years ago.

There is evidence Flores Man made stone tools, lit fires and organised group hunts for meat.

But scientists do not know if it crossed paths with humans. There is geological evidence that a massive volcanic eruption 12,000 years ago trapped Flores Man and other unusual species on the island.

Scientists say the discovery that Flores Man lived on for so long, demolishes previous theories that humans crowded out other upright walking species 160,000 years ago and have dominated the planet alone for tens of thousands of years.

Bird, who joined St Andrews in January after working in Singapore, said: "This is a very important discovery as it adds an entirely new branch to our family tree."

Asked if he thinks any hobbits are still alive, he said: "You can’t say no chance but I would say the chances are minuscule."

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/scitech.cfm?id=1257722004
 
I have not read all the postings for this thread, but glancing through them I note that some of you are wondering at the impact it will have on the world if one of these beings were found alive today.
Believe me, THEY ARE ALIVE!!!
Let me start at the beginning. I have just retired, but had worked as a plantation manager in Indonesia and Malaysia for the past 30 years. During that time, I've had many workers who came from the island of Flores, Timor and other assorted Indonesian islands. To these workers, the " Flores man" is nothing unusual. Several of them had seen these beings face to face. I had a very intelligent foreman from Flores who had a rather unpleasant encounter with one of these beings only about 15 years ago.
Apparently these beings prefer mountainous areas and tend to live in caves. They appear to be still plentiful in Timor island.
For starters, you can read more about them by googling " ebu gogo ".
If there is sufficient interest, I'll relate the stories about these beings told to me by the natives of Flores and Timor.
 
carlosox said:
...

If there is sufficient interest, I'll relate the stories about these beings told to me by the natives of Flores and Timor.
? !

We're all ready and waiting! :)
 
Back
Top