Hong Kong Protests & The Umbrella Movement

Yithian

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Does anyone here apart from Int and myself have a problem with the attacks on police?
Self-defence?

No.

Rounding on an isolated policeman and kicking the hell put of him?

My conscience wouldn't stretch that far. Even if he is the arm of an oppressive state.

You've got to be clever to win the propaganda war, but it's hard to be clever with a vast crowd made of disparate groups. Cops with bloody faces may boost morale, but it won't win the moral argument. If you can mobilise the entire population--or close as dammit--and refuse to co-operate with the law, the Chinese government will be forced to go in hugger mugger or concede and negotiate.

In the latter case, you've set an incredible precedent and pushed the government onto the slope; in the former, you reap a public relations bounty as support rallies and the decent governments of the world are unable to stay on the fence owing to the force of their own peoples' public opinion.
 
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Because punching someone with whose politics you disagree is “generally acceptable”? l mean, as long as you’ve decided that they’re a “fascist”, obviously.

maximus otter
If it's a real fascist who is actually organising/advocating attacks on Jews/Immigrants then I'm all for punching them and have done more than just punch them myself.

Trouble is that too many people who call themselves ANTIFA these days will go for easy targets like rightwing journalists whose opinions they disagree with.
 

Cochise

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Can we give up on the word 'fascist'? The way it is used these days it only means 'I think you are a violent extremist because you disagree with me'.

There are no fascists of the Hitler / Mussolini type these days. It requires a rare mix of socialism with genocidal tendencies, militarism, and the desire for empire. Yes, people may be tempted to draw facile comparisons, but please don't. Deeply consider the fatalities in WW2 before you call an opponent a fascist. Japan was not fascist even though it allied itself with such - it was purely militaristic and hated the Chinese - indeed pretty much anyone who wasn't Japanese. For God's sake let us not go back there.
 

INT21

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What does it take for a protester to become "so called?" Who is calling them?

Agree or disagree, regard them as unwise or impolitic, they look like real protesters to me. :thought:
Protestors form crowds, wave their flags, make their speeches, then go home. People will possibly listen to their point of view and some may even support it.

'So called' protestors interfere with the running of the city, attack the police force who ask them to move on. set fire to things, break into buildings and generally behave like drunken hooligans who happen to be on the loosing side of a football match.

The genuine protestors have moved out of this now. It is anarchists who are causing the current problems.

You will have noticed that at the beginning it was the normal city police, dressed in their usual shortsleeve uniforms that were trying to bring order. But short sleeves do not offer much protection to a mob throwing articles including petrol bombs. And the use of lasers to damage the eyes of the police is now common.

All this was because some people did not want the government to extradite some people to the mainland. A quite lawful act on their part.

I see there is a list of five demands. Good luck with that.

Sadly, I do believe Hong Kong, as known, is finished.

It can't be long now before the mainland steps in and puts a stop to it all.

Shades of Tiananmen ?

looks very much like the Chinese version of 'Arab Spring'; and we all know how that ended up.

INT21.
 

JamesWhitehead

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"The mob" is a concept which is dismissive: we are brought up to view them as reckless, lower-order types with nothing to lose.

History shows them to belong to the anxious lower middle-classes. They are not well-behaved, when riled - and very hard to quell!

It does look as if this is heading for an historic confrontation. I love the reports from our correspondent-on-the-spot but I will be just as happy to know when he has kept well away from the hot-spots! :)
 

INT21

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"The mob" is a concept which is dismissive: we are brought up to view them as reckless, lower-order types with nothing to lose.
Will you agree that when a large group of people start doing destructive things, usually triggered by just a very few, then they are behaving as a mob ?

The social level of the people does not appear to matter. Once a kind of 'blood lust' takes over the crowd reverts to animal instincts. We see it often.
It would appear that often the mob do not realise, or are temporarily blind to, the actions they are carrying out. And to the consequences.

INT21.
 

blessmycottonsocks

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Can we give up on the word 'fascist'? The way it is used these days it only means 'I think you are a violent extremist because you disagree with me'.

There are no fascists of the Hitler / Mussolini type these days. It requires a rare mix of socialism with genocidal tendencies, militarism, and the desire for empire. Yes, people may be tempted to draw facile comparisons, but please don't. Deeply consider the fatalities in WW2 before you call an opponent a fascist. Japan was not fascist even though it allied itself with such - it was purely militaristic and hated the Chinese - indeed pretty much anyone who wasn't Japanese. For God's sake let us not go back there.
Hear hear!

Over- and misuse of the term "fascist" is a pet hate of mine.
Fascism is all about growing the State at the expense of personal liberty.
 

Megadeth1977

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Will you agree that when a large group of people start doing destructive things, usually triggered by just a very few, then they are behaving as a mob ?

The social level of the people does not appear to matter. Once a kind of 'blood lust' takes over the crowd reverts to animal instincts. We see it often.
It would appear that often the mob do not realise, or are temporarily blind to, the actions they are carrying out. And to the consequences.

INT21.
How do you know that there not cops dressed as protesters aka agent provocateurs?
 

INT21

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Magadeath,

I accept your explanation for rolling on the floor laughing.

Now explain to us why it should be police causing the problems. Agents provocateur ? perhaps, but pushing who's agenda ? Surely not Mainland China. Basically, who do you think will gain from this chaos ?

INT21.

p.s. In #158 above I was being facetious, something I'm trying to cut back on.
 
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Megadeth1977

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Magadeath,

I accept your explanation for rolling on the floor laughing.

Now explain to us why it should be police causing the problems. Agents provocateur ? perhaps, but pushing who's agenda ? Surely not Mainland China. Basically, who do you think will gain from this chaos ?

INT21.
China umm I'm don't know what else to say.
 

INT21

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No doubt a lot of people would agree with you there.

But my counter question would be 'As China will be getting Hong Kong back anyway in the not too distant future, why bother with all the disruption now ? After all, China is so big it can swat Hong Kong at any time it wished to.

I would go for some outside power that has it in it's interest to make China look bad.

.
 

Megadeth1977

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No doubt a lot of people would agree with you there.

But my counter question would be 'As China will be getting Hong Kong back anyway in the not too distant future, why bother with all the disruption now ? After all, China is so big it can swat Hong Kong at any time it wished to.

I would go for some outside power that has it in it's interest to make China look bad.

.
China already looks bad it doesn't need someone else's to do that for them and China is extremely willing to up the level of violence to crush democracy in Hong Kong not just the protests about the extradition law since it looks like is a bit of both of things.
 

INT21

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It's moved on from the extradition debacle. Anyway, we'll see what happens.
 

James_H

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I'm back in town. Lots of evidence of the violence over the weekend: smashed windows, closed stations, graffiti.

Due to the theory popular with the mainland government and media that Hong Kong's liberal educational system is responsible for raising a generation of terrorists, the education board has issued an edict. Today we had to send a letter home with our three year olds saying they're not to wear masks or participate in any illegal activities...

On a side note I wouldn't say the Hong Kong educational system is particularly liberal or focused on free thought: it's more about cramming for exams. It's what it omits which is the problem for China, which is propaganda.
 

XBergMann

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Will you agree that when a large group of people start doing destructive things, usually triggered by just a very few, then they are behaving as a mob ?

The social level of the people does not appear to matter. Once a kind of 'blood lust' takes over the crowd reverts to animal instincts. We see it often.
It would appear that often the mob do not realise, or are temporarily blind to, the actions they are carrying out. And to the consequences.

INT21.
They said the same thing about Maidan in Kyiv in 2014. Vast armies of Russian trolls calling us nazis and fascists for not wanting to be ruled by a Russian puppet.

Troll factories are a growth sector, the guy with the most money and the most trolls usually wins. Although as Russia's cargo 200 convoys prove you need a never ending stream of young men to die for your cause to keep the illusion current. Does China really have thousands of citizens who are prepared to die for the honour of wearing a Chinese army uniform while they kill the people of Hong Kong for the crime of wanting what most of us take for granted?

I think probably not.
 

INT21

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kill the people of Hong Kong for the crime of wanting what most of us take for granted?

I think probably not.
The people in Hong Kong do not appear to lack much.

That argument is similar to saying that people in Islamic countries should be allowed to behave the way that people in non-Islamic countries do.

Perhaps they should, but their way is not ours; it never was.

Maybe in a long time everything will evolve into one system.

I have a feeling that it may not be the one we would prefer.

INT21.
 

Xanatic*

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Shouldn't we then fight to make sure it will be? That China becomes Hong Kong rather than Hong Kong becoming China?
 

INT21

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Shouldn't we then fight to make sure it will be? That China becomes Hong Kong rather than Hong Kong becoming China?
I'm not really sure about that.
Apart from the extremes, a one party state has a lot going for it. China gets things done. And as it expands it's 'Belt and Road ' (is that the term ?), it will become more integrated with the rest of the world.

Ask yourself, is our system really making progress ?

INT21.
 

Xanatic*

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I think answering that question would turn this political. Back to our man on the street.
 
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It's amazing that protests in other countries don't get the same media coverage. In Iraq more than 100 (mostly peaceful) protesters have been shot dead in recent days. 326 Palestinians lost their lives in demonstrations held since March 2018 at the Gaza/Israel border and 18,446 were injured, including 9,224 with real bullets.

If rioters were trying to burn police officers to death in the US then I am certain that live rounds would be used by police.
 

INT21

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The Iraq protests are getting some coverage on CNN and Al Jazeera.

''If rioters were trying to burn police officers to death in the US then I am certain that live rounds would be used by police. ''

If you don't stop when a police officer tells you to there is a good chance live rounds will be used. No need to actually attack them.
 

James_H

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It's amazing that protests in other countries don't get the same media coverage. In Iraq more than 100 (mostly peaceful) protesters have been shot dead in recent days.
I've noticed this, it's true. Sadly people are jaded to violence in the middle east and it doesn't 'sell' so much as news.
 

INT21

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I think people are also becoming bored with the Hong Kong situation.

Nothing seems to be happening to bring this thing to an end. It could end up like the Paris yellow jackets situation.

The Middle East is so politically charged we simply can't go there. I have (had) friends there, and hope it settles down soon.
 

Xanatic*

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I have also been surprised at how restricted China have been in dealing with the protesters. It may be that the media coverage is to thank for that.
 

INT21

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Maybe they are hoping it will burn itself out. And if it doesn't they can say, post crack down, 'well, would you let your cities go like that '?
 

James_H

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I have also been surprised at how restricted China have been in dealing with the protesters. It may be that the media coverage is to thank for that.
A second Tiananmen in Hong Kong would be very bad for China economically. As you say, the eyes of the world are on Hong Kong. If it happened in some internal province where the international media were more restricted, nobody would be that interested.
 

James_H

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Conspiracy theory: protestor attack on cross-border train to Guangzhou was a staged production by police and MTR corporation. Main points:

- The train doesn't stop at fanling, where the train was allegedly attacked

- Fanling station was already closed to the public at the time of the alleged attack

- The footage wasn't released until four days after the alleged attack.

Read the comments here for your fill of conspiracies:

“we already discussed this two days ago in my group; one of the group members was in Fanling and the station was closed!
Now we know why.. they were staging this production!!
My comment : How the protesters can go inside the station after it's closed, it's impossible. Therefore the station was closed for the undercover police disguised to protesters vandalized the station and train, making this video then frame on protesters. Undercover police disguised to protesters to make massive vandalize since last Friday over the weekend. Many footage already proved.”
There are also lots of photos of glass in stations broken from the inside while the stations were closed (and I've seen it myself), which raises questions.
 
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