Hong Kong Protests, Umbrella Movement

blessmycottonsocks

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It's more than that though. If the CCP were to lose power chaotically rather than through a process there would be a real risk of societal breakdown. The scenario of hundreds of millions of refugees is not a pretty one, China has never known Democracy, Mao beat another dictator, Chang Kai-shek. Taiwan was a One Party State until 1991.
The Qing dynasty introduced democracy in the late 19th century, with elections in 1907, 1909 and 1912.
The one-party state started in 1927, followed by Mao's dictatorship in 1949.
 

INT21

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"It may be rather direct in it's methods, but it gets things done."

Bit like Mussolini making the trains run on time I suppose?

Almost sounds as if you have a sneaking admiration for totalitarianism.
You are partially correct.

But it could maybe be better put that I have no time for governing that involves huge amounts of money spent on committees that endlessly discuss projects and in the end cancel them because they are no longer popular.

At the risk of nudging politics. Our Brexit is a prime example.

A couple more examples. HS2. I don't think it is necessary . but once the decision had been made they have immediately began construction.

In my town they are currently widening a road to complete the Northern By-pass. And we do nee it to be done. It's a bottle neck. The preparatory work for one end was done ..in1947.

So yes, I do like firm decisive control by no nonsense people. NOT fascist control, but there needs to be someone who is recognised to be 'The Boss'.
 

INT21

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Another thing to add is the surveillance state, used effectively by Stalin, Saddam Hussein and others but really only coming into its own in modern China with near universal use of phone software and hardware made by government linked companies which report on users plus social credit and CCTV linked to facial recognition AIs. A society with built in surveillance is very good at maintaining its power system.
And East Germany, with it's Stazi was another example.

As for Hussein, look what happened when he was forced out. Same goes for Gadaffi. Stalin just lost it in the end.

Hard men for hard to govern countries.

But the alternative to firm governance is a wooly chaos.

And as Hong Kong is showing. Little by little the dissidents are increasing their demands. Whatever Lam concedes will never be enough.

Beijing needs to round up the leaders of the so called 'movement' and say 'Ok, here is the deal. We are going to let you go. But you will spread the word that the point has been made and the people wish to return to normal. You have had you fun. Now shape up; or else'.

INT21
 

INT21

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AlchoPwn,

Mao said that ? I thought it was Trump. But either way it is correct. It all depends on who is holding the gun.

Can China wait for 2046 ? I think so. Only 47 years away. And it is getting closer by the day.

The problem is that it is very similar to religion. Both sides think they have the right approach.

The Wests ( at least America's ) only response it to attempt to lay siege to China. Same as they do with any other country they don't like. But it won't work this time. China is too big.

Sorry about the politics, but it is the only way to express it.
 

James_H

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James_H

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From last week: this video shows a man dressed in Hong Kong riot police uniform berating a plainclothes operative. However, he's speaking Mandarin and addressing the other man as 'soldier' and telling him he's a useless soldier. To which the man in clothes replies with a salute. All of which would be very strange if they were actual Hong Kong police officers but would make sense if they were mainland soldiers in HKPF uniform.

 

James_H

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The biggest news today is that someone has been shot with live rounds by a police officer while trying to take their gun off them (not the smartest of moves). Various rumours as to whether they're dead or not, but he at least seems to be in the hospital. There's video which I won't post which clearly shows someone being shot at close range (a couple of feet).

Another video appears to show a protestor setting a pro-police civilian on fire with petrol.

It's a very crazy day so far. It's hard to believe that the education board is keeping schools open with such chaos going on outside.
 

James_H

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Photo appears to show riot police vandalising a bus with spraypaint (though it might show police removing spraypaint?). Several bus drivers have participated in civil disobedience today by blocking tunnels and roads with their vehicles.
 

James_H

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A long list of allegations of untruths told by the police force, taken from reddit. I think some of these are a little more out there (I'm not sure about the suicides being covered-up murders, for example, and I think some of these examples are a stretch), while others are certainly true.

The police denied murdering Chow Tsz Lok, a 22 year old protester who died after falling from a car park. They also denied having gangraped an underaged girl.

In the past 5 months, the police denied all of the following but admitted some of them after their lies were exposed. (Translated from this Facebook post. Evidence added by myself for the uninitiated.)
This post is about the alleged gang rape of a teenage protestor in the police station, leading to pregnancy and an abortion. Facebook posts made by a doctor appear to back up the story but who knows how valid they are?

Translation of the news article from Liberty Times on 11/09:
"Ever since the anti-extradition law amendment bill movement started, many civilians have been arrested by the Hong Kong police. Among them, many women claimed that they were sexually harassed or even assaulted by HK police. Yesterday, a piece of information came out that a 16-year-old teenager was gang-raped by the police while she was in police custody, got pregnant, and was forced to have an abortion and forced to remain silent. About this, an ER doctor working at the hospital confirmed on his Facebook page. He also claimed that complaints have been filed against him, and that he is receiving death threats.
A HK internet user disclosed this scandal on lihkg.com yesterday (the 8th), stating that a young woman was arrested during one of the protests, and that while she was in police custody, she was raped by multiple police officers, and unfortunately got pregnant. This post also stated that she had an abortion surgery yesterday at the Elizabeth Hospital. According to this internet user, this incident has spread widely among the medical professionals; he/she also swore on his/her entire families’ lives that everything in the post was true.
Today, an ER doctor made a post on his Facebook page “Dr. Ray’s Emergency Room Journey.” He stated that he already knew about it last week, and now this news “is like a fire that can no longer be concealed by paper”. He said that he is not the person who made the post on lihkg.com, but he already had complaints filed and death threats made against him. “But I believe that even if I fall down, there will be thousands of my colleagues who will continue to blow this whistle, just like now”
In the end, he also pleaded people in Hong Kong to not surround the hospital, because the medical professionals are put in a tight spot, that they are not able to “open their mouths”. He called for people in Hong Kong to convert their anger into support for the victims. “Hospital is a place for reasons and is not a battleground; I hope everyone can share their opinions peacefully”
In this post, he also shared another scandal-disclosing post. Besides stating what happened to this 16 year old teenage girl, this other post also stated that there are attorneys looking into this incident, DNA sample collected, and that an investigation is underway.”
 
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INT21

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One of the first thing a movement has to do is paint the other side as monsters.

That way, when they throw petrol bombs etc at them it does not elicit sympathy..

Seems to be working.

INT21.
 

James_H

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There's a battle going on in the Chinese University of Hong Kong right now. Rumour is that a group of student plans to commit mass-suicide by setting themselves on fire if they are about to be taken by the police. Also that police plan to call a truce to prevent such an outcome.

Protestors have also started to use bows and arrows as weapons.
 

James_H

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Another video appears to show a protestor setting a pro-police civilian on fire with petrol.
The inevitable conspiracy rumour is that this is an agent of the other side. However I don't find it a stretch to believe that a protestor would do this. I saw someone being shouted down by several furious members of the public for taking down posters a few weeks ago and it looked like it could have easily spilled over into violence.
 

James_H

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Apparently all internet traffic goes through the Chinese university and this is one reason people are trying to keep the police out with such fervour, because they have fears like the following, inspired by the state of Xinjiang right now. The Hong Kong Police are, by long-standing agreement with the university, not actually allowed onto the campus without making a formal request, but that's all out of the window today.

EJLoB2FU4AA2UgI.jpeg
 

INT21

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James,

Be very careful today.

Just been watching the CNN live feed from HK.

It looks very bad.

It seems the protestors have derailed a train. And taken over a petrol station are are know making bulk petrol bombs.

Also they have set up barricades and it seems they intend to set fire to them when the police show up.

There are people there armed with javelins and also bows and arrows.

So today good get very bloody. Possibly the whole thing will come to a very violent conclusion.

I suspect that this could turn into another Tiannamin.

This is as I expected it was going to turn out.

I can't imaging Xi putting up with it much longer.

Keep you head down mate. Good Luck.

INT21
 

James_H

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Thanks. I went to work but got back to safety as soon as possible afterwards. No work tomorrow so I'll be at home.
 
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