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How 'Alien' Might Aliens Be? (Biologically; Mentally)?

Actually life doesn't go against entropy any more than mechanical systems. In order to supoport a lifeform in space, you need an extensive closed ecological life support system, which creates a lot of disorder in itself.
Eventually mechanical systems could be made self-repairing and self replicating, so the difference between biological lifesytems and mechanical life systems may eventually be minimal.
I think that the exploration of the universe should follow as many different and diverse routes as possible:
genetically engineered space adapted organisms, cybernetically augmented biology, pure robotic exploration,
and data only ships containing uploaded human mentalities (and perhaps artificial intelligences not copied from human minds).

These last will probably be the longest lived explorers, able to travel thousands of light years in data banks; if we ever meet alien explorers, chances are they will be of this kind.
 
But a dataship with uploaded human mentality would probably not be that different from a space-faring robot.
Yes, you might make machines that would be self-replicating and such. But then I'd say you end up with ET rather than Arnold again because it then starts to resemble biological life.
 
True, they might be very similar in concept, but for rather arbritary reasons, I am destinguishing between a robot explorer which has a toolkit of equipment to make detailed observations, analyses, recordings and transmit this data back to a central location (probably the home planet)

and a data ship containing digitlsed copies of humans and advanced AI, possibly carrying enough data to bootstrap a modest civilisation if necessary. Such a data-only ship could conceivably be much smaller than a ship containing a CELSS to provide life support for a biological crew.

I think I would rather encounter an alien data ship than a (probably intellectually limited) robot explorer.
 
Yeah a dataship with the capability to grow/built bodies on arrival and download the crew into them, no need for much life support until arrival, no endless games of monopoly during the journey, no dodgy cryosleep. Sounds pretty good.
 
Going by this Thread, scientific types seem to be terrible geeky anoraks, embarrassed by their animal nature.

"Oh that this too too solid flesh should melt
To be replaced by something streamlined
Solid state and chromium plated."


:madeyes:
 
... I have always felt that these type of ideas say more about those who want to believe in aliens than any logical act that an alien might do. There are any number of better ways for any self-respecting intelligent alien to get data on humans.
But they would be ALIEN, with a totally different way of thinking and behaving, what doesn't make sense to us earthlings may be perfectly normal for aliens, the victorians would have a different mindset to people today, so how can we get into an alien mind and say how they would think and act?
 
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But they would be ALIEN, with a totally different way of thinking and behaving, what doesn't make sense to us earthlings may be perfectly normal for aliens, the victorians would have a different mindset to people today, so how can we get into an alien mind and say how they would think and act?

I agree with the general point about our not being able to grasp, much less predict, what a truly 'alien' mentality might think or do.

By the same token, it's only fair to point out that much of the activity classically attributed to aliens exhibits general elements reflecting known human activities (e.g., artificial flying vehicles; abductions; reconnaissance; medical experiments, and even infiltration of human institutions).

Invoking unknowable alien mentalities does nothing to excuse or erase the fact we're still projecting a lot of human characteristics and capabilities onto 'them'.
 
I agree with the general point about our not being able to grasp, much less predict, what a truly 'alien' mentality might think or do.

By the same token, it's only fair to point out that much of the activity classically attributed to aliens exhibits general elements reflecting known human activities (e.g., artificial flying vehicles; abductions; reconnaissance; medical experiments, and even infiltration of human institutions).

Invoking unknowable alien mentalities does nothing to excuse or erase the fact we're still projecting a lot of human characteristics and capabilities onto 'them'.
Exactly.....the activities of 'aliens' seems to mirror what humans would do in many cases.
 
I agree with the general point about our not being able to grasp, much less predict, what a truly 'alien' mentality might think or do.

By the same token, it's only fair to point out that much of the activity classically attributed to aliens exhibits general elements reflecting known human activities (e.g., artificial flying vehicles; abductions; reconnaissance; medical experiments, and even infiltration of human institutions).

Invoking unknowable alien mentalities does nothing to excuse or erase the fact we're still projecting a lot of human characteristics and capabilities onto 'them'.

I actually think Lovecraft illustrates this with the Great Old Ones - we have no idea on any level what they are about. That's why I never liked Nyarlathotep with his human characteristics.
 
But they would be ALIEN, with a totally different way of thinking and behaving, what doesn't make sense to us earthlings may be perfectly normal for aliens, the victorians would have a different mindset to people today, so how can we get into an alien mind and say how they would think and act?
No...not necessarily. If the aliens use 'science'....and one has to assume they use some form of that since hydrogen is hydrogen where ever you go then we should have many things in common with them on that level. We would have language and culture issues but physics is physics even if their science is more advanced. And many scientists (exobiologists) believe that the 'humanoid' form is probably one that evolution 'uses' then we might have many things in common.
 
I actually think Lovecraft illustrates this with the Great Old Ones - we have no idea on any level what they are about. That's why I never liked Nyarlathotep with his human characteristics.

But Nyarlathotep is an infiltrator and a deity. It knows exactly how humans think and behave, and can manipulate humans with ease. On the other hand, to assume that Nyarlathotep thinks or feels like a human does is pure projection, unless...

Given that we live in a universe made of the same chemicals from the same periodic table and obeying the same laws of physics it may well be that there are a very limited number of forms that life is able to take. We have yet to find a life-form that is anything other than cellular, and in fact that is the only form of life we have discovered other than viruses with their RNA. Given that crystals visibly grow and can store energy, it isn't entirely impossible that there might be alternative atmospheres where they could flourish and take on the complexity of life forms with which we are more familiar. On the other hand, the disturbing possibility that Star Trek is right, and all life forms are carbon based, cellular, and upright "people in silly suits" isn't entirely impossible either.
 
But Nyarlathotep is an infiltrator and a deity. It knows exactly how humans think and behave, and can manipulate humans with ease. On the other hand, to assume that Nyarlathotep thinks or feels like a human does is pure projection, unless...

Given that we live in a universe made of the same chemicals from the same periodic table and obeying the same laws of physics it may well be that there are a very limited number of forms that life is able to take. We have yet to find a life-form that is anything other than cellular, and in fact that is the only form of life we have discovered other than viruses with their RNA. Given that crystals visibly grow and can store energy, it isn't entirely impossible that there might be alternative atmospheres where they could flourish and take on the complexity of life forms with which we are more familiar. On the other hand, the disturbing possibility that Star Trek is right, and all life forms are carbon based, cellular, and upright "people in silly suits" isn't entirely impossible either.

In Star Trek there are silicon, energy and crystal based life forms.

Your truly

The Crystalline Entity.
 
In Star Trek there are silicon, energy and crystal based life forms.
Your truly
The Crystalline Entity.

I think they have discovered a sentient nebula once or twice, but normally aliens are just people in silly suits on Star Trek, and other sci-fi shows in general. Am I wrong? I would have thought that you, Crystal Entity, in particular, would object to the anthropomorphizacism implied. It's "alien black face"really. No wonder the poor aliens don't want to announce themselves.
 
I'm quite sure that whatever we think alien life looks like, we'll be quite wrong.
 
I think they have discovered a sentient nebula once or twice, but normally aliens are just people in silly suits on Star Trek, and other sci-fi shows in general.
One thing that the "silly suit and face ridges" type of alien make me think is: even if aliens turned out to be bipedal and resembling us in some very broad way, why should they be around 6' tall? Why not 6mm or 6000 feet? Other worlds, with different atmospheres and gravities, would surely produce a different range of shapes and sizes to Earth, and that's assuming that they're carbon-based beings like ourselves.

For that matter, why should aliens perceive time in the same way. If a species had a sufficiently slow metabolism, we needn't invoke faster-than-light travel to allow them to travel between the stars. Then again, if an alien species which perceived time 100 times slower than us arrived here, how would they communicate?

I think it's fair to say that, unless the aliens and we descended from some common ancestor, we might not even recognise each other as intelligent life if we do meet.
 
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One thing that the "silly suit and face ridges" type of alien is: even if aliens turned out to be bipedal and resembling us in some very broad way, why should they be around 6' tall? Why not 6mm or 6000 feet?
Sufficiently small aliens would likely not have enough brain (whatever passes for their "brain") matter for making starships. Sufficiently large aliens would presumably be from a low gravity world to allow such size to be feasable, but low gravity means likely either mineral poor (not enough stuff to build the spaceships out of), or very small (same problem).
 
No...not necessarily. If the aliens use 'science'....and one has to assume they use some form of that since hydrogen is hydrogen where ever you go then we should have many things in common with them on that level. We would have language and culture issues but physics is physics even if their science is more advanced. And many scientists (exobiologists) believe that the 'humanoid' form is probably one that evolution 'uses' then we might have many things in common.

That may be a bad thing - especially if the aliens are 'organic and biological' {ingest, digest, excrete} in nature
- Man who I once read survived because he did not taste good to predatory animals, might make
a tasty morsel to a biological alien from elsewhere.

But always consider that just because Man is stuck on the organic biological paradigm does not mean
other entities in this vast universe are all biological - Always consider the possibility that some beings
may have evolved like what Humans call artificial intelligence and may be machine like {think the SF movie
series "Transformers"} - Such beings might be hard to relate to - but it is possible.

Biological Man, the supposedly evolved Human, is in many ways very inefficient and destructive.
- A hypothetical alien species might not have the flaws inherent in biological life
- Might be we are evolving in that direction right now - Some say 'the Singularity' is near.
 
That may be a bad thing - especially if the aliens are 'organic and biological' {ingest, digest, excrete} in nature
- Man who I once read survived because he did not taste good to predatory animals, might make
a tasty morsel to a biological alien from elsewhere.

But always consider that just because Man is stuck on the organic biological paradigm does not mean
other entities in this vast universe are all biological - Always consider the possibility that some beings
may have evolved like what Humans call artificial intelligence and may be machine like {think the SF movie
series "Transformers"} - Such beings might be hard to relate to - but it is possible.

Biological Man, the supposedly evolved Human, is in many ways very inefficient and destructive.
- A hypothetical alien species might not have the flaws inherent in biological life
- Might be we are evolving in that direction right now - Some say 'the Singularity' is near.
Machine, computers, I.C.'s, etc. are created by engineers and scientists. Programs are written by developers. A machine may act on it's own but only to the extend of which it is programed to do so. Adaptive behavior(s) are confined to the limits of the design. My 2-cents?
 
... But always consider that just because Man is stuck on the organic biological paradigm does not mean other entities in this vast universe are all biological - Always consider the possibility that some beings
may have evolved like what Humans call artificial intelligence and may be machine like {think the SF movie
series "Transformers"} - Such beings might be hard to relate to - but it is possible. ...

It's entirely plausible that we may eventually contact alien species' artificial / machinic analogues, just as it is plausible another species may eventually encounter one of our space or planetary probes.

In either case, such artificial analogues represent separate / subsequent 'life-like' products of a biological species rather than its 'evolved' descendants. No matter how autonomous, self-organizing, or self-replicating such artificial analogues may become, they would fall short of qualifying as 'living' in the same systems-delimited sense as biological entities within the physical space.

Such artificial analogues may well displace their biological forebears / creators as derivative 'others' in some or all environments, but they cannot by definition replace them as descendants in the earlier / biological species' evolved lineage.

Phrased another way ... Any 'machine species' we may ever encounter would have to represent a 2nd or nth generation derivative from a prior biological species who'd attained the level of biological and extra-biological (i.e., technological) sophistication necessary to devise such artifice.
 
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Our only experience of life anywhere is on this planet.
It doesn't seem unreasonable therefore to focus our search for exoplanets and potential extraterrestrial life on other class M planets.
Given the technological limitations inherent in aquatic life forms, I would anticipate any developed and possibly space-faring aliens to be land-dwelling.
Given the evolutionary heirachy we have observed on Earth of single celled organisms to simple invertebrates then more complex invertebrates, reptiles, amphibians, mammals and ultimately primates including us, then the notion of a space-faring species of alien having vaguely humanoid appearance surely isn't that outrageous?
Maybe Star Trek's ridged foreheads or pointy ears aren't that far off the mark?
 
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Our only experience of life anywhere is on this planet.
It doesn't seem unreasonable therefore to focus our search for exoplanets and potential extraterrestrial life on other class M planets.
Given the technological limitations inherent in aquatic life forms, I would anticipate any developed and possibly space-faring aliens to be land-dwelling.
Given the evolutionary heirachy we have observed on Earth of single celled organisms to simple invertebrates then more complex invertebrates, reptiles, amphibians, mammals and ultimately primates including us, then the notion of a space-faring species of alien having vaguely humanoid appearance surely isn't that outrageous?
Maybe Star Trek's ridged foreheads or pointy ears aren't that far off the mark?
Well said. ..imho that makes sense. The idea that octopus or other bizarre forms could evolve to space traveling aliens is possible.. though the idea of a humanoid or bipedal form makes far more sense, to me, when it comes to creating a tech civilization and traveling in space.
I suspect that when and if we meet space aliens that they might seem similar to us in many ways.
 
Just how do you define humanoid? If this definition is an erect biped, the you have to distinguish between the vertical backbone of a human or a penguin, and the horizontal backbone of a jackdaw or a velociraptor. There have been many, many bipedal species on this planet, with only a few having the same vertical spine as a penguin or human. That suggests to me that our exact bauplan is quite rare.

If humanoid just means 'bipedal', then you could count sapient tyrannosaurs or any creature with two legs and manipulatory appendages.
I would not be surprised if the most humanoid alien species in our galaxy looked something like this: biped.jpg
 
What about fungal mould?
Can a fungal network act as a communication web between trees in a forest?
Does that mean a single spore can carry information?
 
Given the evolutionary heirachy we have observed on Earth of single celled organisms to simple invertebrates then more complex invertebrates, reptiles, amphibians, mammals and ultimately primates including us, then the notion of a space-faring species of alien having vaguely humanoid appearance surely isn't that outrageous?
I'll ignore 'invertebrates' as a classification, because it is a polyphyleticgroup, like 'worms' or 'bacteria'. The others are more closely defined, and we can make some definitive statements about them. Each of these groups you have mentioned is a tightly-defined taxon, and doesn't exist anywhere else in the universe. (note that amphibians evolved from fish, and reptiles evolved from amphibians, not the other way round).
There are no amphibians anywhere else in the universe, unless they have been somehow transported from Earth by an unknown process. There may be creatures which have some of the characteristics of amphibians, but we would be able to find characteristics that are different from Earth amphibians, and these differences would often be quite striking.
There are no reptiles anywhere else in the universe, unless they have been somehow transported from Earth by an unknown process. There may be creatures which have some of the characteristics of reptiles, but we would be able to find characteristics that are different from Earth reptiles, and these differences would often be quite striking.
There are no mammals anywhere else in the universe, unless they have been somehow transported from Earth by an unknown process. There may be creatures which have some of the characteristics of mammals, but we would be able to find characteristics that are different from Earth mammals, and these differences would often be quite striking.
There are no primates anywhere else in the universe, unless they have been somehow transported from Earth by an unknown process. There may be creatures which have some of the characteristics of primates, but we would be able to find characteristics that are different from Earth primates, and these differences would often be quite striking.

Alien taxonomy is likely to be a very complicated and interesting subject, and we might find taxons close enough to Earth taxa to call them 'reptiloids', 'mammaloids', 'primatoids' and so on; but the more specific analogs are likely to be difficult to find, and we will become increasingly aware of the differences the close a species gets to resembling a human. This 'uncanny valley' effect will probably increase the monstrous aspect of an alien that looks even vaguely similar to a humanoid; we might find it easier to accept aliens that look like trees or sea anemones than humans with mandibles and compound eyes.
unnamed.jpg
 
... Given the evolutionary heirachy we have observed on Earth of single celled organisms to simple invertebrates then more complex invertebrates, reptiles, amphibians, mammals and ultimately primates including us, then the notion of a space-faring species of alien having vaguely humanoid appearance surely isn't that outrageous? ...

There are factors or features that one can point to as possible bases for structural similarities.

For example ... Bilateral / multi-lateral symmetry (as an outcome) arguably reduces the genomic complexities required to prescribe how to develop a large multicellular organism.

Legs or similar appendages remain the simplest effective means for locomotion across a solid or semi-solid surface. The fewer legs an organism requires might be reasonably invoked as an efficiency factor, with two legs being the minimum number required to obtain a desired trade-off between functionality and maintenance burden.
 
A single spore does carry a lot of information; tens of megabases on average.
 
A vertebrate with only two legs needs to dedicate a lot of brain power to balancing. The structure of an alien brain need not resemble ours in any way, but the act of balancing on two legs is likely to demand extra processing power, whatever the brain looks like.
 
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