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How 'Alien' Might Aliens Be? (Technologically)?

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I might be in error starting a new thread about this (I haven't perused all the postings to see if this idea has already been posted), but this is a pet peeve of mine that I've had since I was a really small child.

I've seen people talking about aliens and read books and stories about the subject and, invariably, the subject of the apparent level of technology exhibited by the beings comes up.

The most common and basic idea that comes out is that these aliens obviously have to have an advanced technology due to an extremely long lived civilisation.

Has it ever occurred to anybody that, because of something as elementary as natural resources, the technology of these aliens would have developed along different lines than our own?

Think about it... Our technology is the result of the kinds of resources that our planet has available. If a civilisation has developed on a planet that had an abundance of elements, metals and other resources different than ours, their technology would be radically different than our own.

They don't have to be an extremely old society, they could have just developed different approaches to problems based on a different set of natural resources. Their state of the art could be far and away different than ours, but that doesn't mean that they are ancient.

Just something I had to get out on the table.

-Behemoth
 
Indeed. Our own civilisation's technology has come a long way in a very short time (approx 300 years).
If it kept developing for another 300 years, we might have technology that might equal extraterrestrial civilisations.
In the scale of things, 600 years isn't a lot.
 
We'd probably have reached the industrial revolution a lot sooner if it hadn't have been for the dark ages so you might want to consider the political aspects of this alien civilisation as well.
 
I seem to recall various stories of aliens / MIB / etc being confounded by simple human technology. Things like zippers and such. Possibly because they never developed such things.


Also, many of the stories I've read lead me to consider the possibility that the occupants of UFOs may not have developed the technology that they now control. It often seems that they operate by rote, by a very fixed script, and anything that diverges from that sequence causes them confusion.


Maybe their "wonderous spacebrother technology" isn't that advanced, it's just along lines that Mankind hasn't pursued. Alternately, maybe it's not technology at all. We've all seen the theories that UFOs are to some degree lifeforms, not machines. Maybe their gadgets are actually the material accoutraments of a magical "technology". (errr... mebby "quantum reality manipualtion" instead of "magic".)
 
but how about the trend for alien technology appearing to be like human technology, but slightly more advanced? (gears and levers in the fifties through computer screens in the 90s)
 
Hmmm....interesting points, all....

If you think about UFOs in the context of being vehicles (forget about the lifeform theory for right now) and you then go and peruse the latest developements in theoretical physics, it becomes easy to devise methods of propulsion that behave in the ways that these things have been observed to behave (right angles at high speeds, disappearing, etc..) but the power requirments for these propulsion systems would be incredible.

Maybe our venerable "spacebrothers", or whomever developed the technology, have discovered some form of highly efficient power supply...it would be a necessity.

One other thing that has always bothered me (keep in mind that I firmly believe in the existence of life outside our earth, but I tend to take things with a grain of salt), if these visitors are, in fact, advanced technologically and sociologically, then why would they travel light years only to stick things up peoples backsides and shove small bits of glass-like substances into those people's toes, fingers, or other body parts?!

I can understand wanting to study humans (we're fascinating, if pathetic), but what's so great about our rears?!

No one has ever answered this question to my satisfaction. DNA can be sampled much less invasively (mouth swabbing, hair samples, etc..) than by shoving a shiny metal hoobijoob up some poor slobs rear...

Ok..I'll stop now, before I offend someone.

-Behemoth
 
Behemoth:
It seems to me that when you started this thread, you were discussing why aliens might be following a different "technology tree" (to steal a term from strategy gaming) than the Earthers. I was trying to show that "different" doesn't neccessarily mean "more advanced".


As far as the "typical" "abduction script", the seeming lack of sophistication of the "procedures" would fit well with my "these morons don't know what they're doing, they're playing with toys they bought from someone else" scenario.


If we get into the "aliens are visitors from the Jungian overmind" scenario, then obviously their technology and procedures will reflect what the great mass of people would imagine what a (slightly more than us) advanced visitor would be doing. Complete with the general public's faulty understanding of science, technology and medicine.


The working theory you use for alien visitation has a strong impact on the "explanation" why these aliens have the capabilities they seem to have.


There, now I've gone up and used my quota of quotes for this month!
 
Honestly I can't see an alien developing space craft without inventing aircraft, and developing that without developing gliders, and making use of a combustion and then jet engine. Because we built, flew, and understood the physics behind aircraft we learned what could and couldn't work with spacecraft. On this planet, co-evolution of technology is quite obvious. Resources are always a limiting factor, but from what physics has taught us, iron on our planet wouldn't be any different from iron on some far off planet, so them having more resources simply means they have a larger supply, doesn't mean they will have wild and new resources we don't have. All elements are abundant throughout the universe, we know this cause we can see into the stars. the only thing they can have that would be different from us is that we haven't developed it yet. You can imagine how absolutely scary a helicopter would be to an indigenous tribesman with no experience with these everyday vehicles for us. It'd appear as some enormous monster or some unknown material, making huge noise just floating in the air. I guess we can think the same of a UFO, we are just primitive compared to anything capable of travelling across the galaxy or universe.
 
Very well thought out... I still wonder if a different species of intelligence wouldn't approach the same problem from a different way. We, as humans, haven't always chosen the best ways to solves problems, nor the fastest...to say nothing of the most elegant.

While the elements and resources may be present in abundance throughout this universe, their concentrations are different. They aren't spread out in a homogenous dispersion.

Afterall, we're still using a brute force method for fusion and fission, rather than something with more finesse (although, I did recently come across a patent for a nuclear decay laser that seems rather interesting). We also need to keep in mind the sociopolitical influences on the development of our technologies; a species of intelligence different from ours would have a different set of influences and I think that, coupled with a different abundance of resources, would probably lead to different solutions to the same problem.

Oh dear, I'm rambling again...

-Behemoth
 
Behemoth said:
One other thing that has always bothered me (keep in mind that I firmly believe in the existence of life outside our earth, but I tend to take things with a grain of salt), if these visitors are, in fact, advanced technologically and sociologically, then why would they travel light years only to stick things up peoples backsides and shove small bits of glass-like substances into those people's toes, fingers, or other body parts?!

I can understand wanting to study humans (we're fascinating, if pathetic), but what's so great about our rears?!

No one has ever answered this question to my satisfaction. DNA can be sampled much less invasively (mouth swabbing, hair samples, etc..) than by shoving a shiny metal hoobijoob up some poor slobs rear...

Ok..I'll stop now, before I offend someone.

-Behemoth

Maybe they're interstellar scatologists? :)
 
Actually the distribution of many elements will be roughly the same between solar systems, but there might be exceptions.
A-class stars are notorious for producing excesses of certain elements, and this material will be expelled when they leave the main sequence, so a planet nearby might have an excess of arsenic, or lithium, or gold. With abundant gold, electronics might be developed early...

Similarly a planet near a nebula like the Helix might have an excess of silicon dust, or carbon dust, on the surface;
a civilisation on such a world could develop technology based on glass or graphite/diamond/buckytube allotropes.

or perhaps excessive chlorine, sulphur or phosphorous would alter the surface conditions so much that iron is quickly corroded; this civilisation might use ceramics or plastics instead.

or a civilisation might simply develop underwater and never develop fire. Such a civilisation might rely simply on biotechnology, if it can somehow attain a useful form of this technology without going through an industrial revolution
 
Holy mother popcorn!

That's probably one of the most erudite and well thought out replies I've ever seen. I am humbled and will now go hide under my rock some more.

-Behemoth
 
Eburacum45 said:
Actually the distribution of many elements will be roughly the same between solar systems, but there might be exceptions.
A-class stars are notorious for producing excesses of certain elements, and this material will be expelled when they leave the main sequence, so a planet nearby might have an excess of arsenic, or lithium, or gold. With abundant gold, electronics might be developed early...

Similarly a planet near a nebula like the Helix might have an excess of silicon dust, or carbon dust, on the surface;
a civilisation on such a world could develop technology based on glass or graphite/diamond/buckytube allotropes.

or perhaps excessive chlorine, sulphur or phosphorous would alter the surface conditions so much that iron is quickly corroded; this civilisation might use ceramics or plastics instead.

or a civilisation might simply develop underwater and never develop fire. Such a civilisation might rely simply on biotechnology, if it can somehow attain a useful form of this technology without going through an industrial revolution
Perhaps, but one must always remember that knowledge is based on a foundations (accomplishments made standing on the shoulders of giants :D ). Now to start it off, a planet with excess chlorine and phosphorous would not be able to support life. Although given how reactive these chemicals are, you will never have them just floating around in elemental form. Most plastics are the result of extensive developments in organic chemistry and have a large dependence on petroleum, before the advent of synthetic plastics was developed anyways. You will not see primative peoples developing plastics ever. Ceramics have been with us since the dawn of time, some of the earliest artifacts are ceramic stoneware and pottery. Basic requirement is dirt. you need to have an understanding of chemistry for the rest. Now also remember the development of electronics and discoveries in electricity did not require gold ever. The fundamental foundation of electricity lies in chemistry. These discoveries were made using common metal salts and studying redox reactions, golds only function in electronics is that it's the perfect electrode seeing as how it never corrodes. Copper was and still is the most commonly used material in electronics, and most wire used in electronics these days has a thin plastic coating to prevent corrosion. Platinum and iridium are just as good as gold in electronics and copper seems to work great in combustion engine spark plugs in spite of its ability to corrode. and if more abundant than gold on a certain planet, it'd be logical to think that it would be the primary metal used in electrodes of alien electronics. Just because an element is prevalent doesn't mean it will speed up technological development. Again look at our history. In the beginning, we knew of rocks, trees, and animals. Hence we had weapons and tools of rocks, used trees for shelter, and wore animal skins. as We've progressed we knew of metals, fabric, and masonry to improve our way of life. Our technology isn't based off one distinct group of elements and never has been. They call it the Iron age simply because it was the principal metal for weapon and tools at the time, not because buildings and infrastructure were made out of it. The industrial age used more iron in it than Ancient Rome ever did. A planet with an abundance of carbon might've had its "Carbon Age" in their ancient history much like our Iron Age, but as science progressed, they'd find metals to be more reliable and better for tools and weapons as our ancestors did when they went from stone to bronze, and then bronze to iron and so on. more resources would be necessary, and thus sought after, and more methods for extracting those resources etc. would be developed. We use diamonds for quite a bit of industrial uses, so too would the alien civilization with an abundance, only diamonds wouldn't be the highly prized gem they are on our planet if they were common as quartz is here. As for our approach to discovery, most of the early discoveries where serendipity. The rest came through the process of hypothesis, test, test, test more, theorize, test again, keep on testing, and finally generally accept until something comes along and proves it wrong. Scientific method. Our discoveries with fission and fusion were hardly a "brute force" method. We already knew what would happen when these reactions took place. we knew that chain reactions would occur and the amount of energy they would release before we built a weapon that utilized it (this is what I'm thinking you're getting at). I don't see how an alien civilization could come to nuclear power plant before making a nuclear bomb; whether they sought to use it as a weapon or exclusively thought of it as a tremendous power supply (we saw it as both) is up to the sociopolitical stance. Still, you can't make a steam engine without burning something and you can't make a combustion engine without blowing something up, but learning to control it, refine it, and harness it is all part of the game and it has indeed been done. a rickety gas engine from a Model T built in 1904 is a far cry from the sophisticated, refined, and computer controlled engines of today. As for fusion, we are still working on that one. At present, the energy the experimental reactors have been producing is still not nearly as much as the energy required to start the reaction so it's neither cost efficient, nor practical at the moment. It's not going to be right the first time, it never is (but it still works), being satisfied with something isn't what science is about. I'm not going to say there's only one way to get from point A to point B with science cause thats a load of crap, but I'll say that there are only certain ways to do it, and without the scientific method, advancement is impossible. Our industrial revolution occured when it did and not sooner only because the human condition held it back. Wars, superstition, and the Dark Ages, an era where reasoning and curiosity was replaced with theocracy and divine absolution halted discovery in its tracks and ironically (though much less) the Age of Discovery was rekindled when people started to look back to the ancient times when learning and science was welcomed and encouraged. The idea of an aquatic civilization is fanciful, and indeed possible, but they will never be as technologically advanced. Remember as far along as we've gotten on this planet, there are still groups of people who live as if the world was stuck in 10000 BC. These isolated groups did not have the resources available the rest of the world had, no contact with the rest of the world to get an exchange of ideas and resources, and as a result are stuck living with the resources they've got. If it's just stone, wood, fire, and cloth, they aren't going to happen upon a jet engine anytime and they will not spontaneously develop bio technologies or whatever either.
 
just an additional note, I find it interesting that petroleum was well known to Indian tribes living in the Southwestern United States, but they used it for fire, and curing of hide. During the 1840s and 1850s when black gold was the new resource to tap into, the tribes were actually able to have a steady business with the people living in the area until the US government, like all wonderful imperialist powers during the 19th century, muscled their way into the oil fields to lubricate and power their new ships and horseless carriages and left the natives high and dry. I guess the point I'm getting at is even though a resource is available, the use for it might still be different between the societies.
 
Originally posted by Search

Perhaps, but one must always remember that knowledge is based on a foundations (accomplishments made standing on the shoulders of giants :D ). Now to start it off, a planet with excess chlorine and phosphorous would not be able to support life.

we don't know that; some postulated biochemistries use acids as solvents rather than water.
Although given how reactive these chemicals are, you will never have them just floating around in elemental form.
No; but at an Earth-like temperature they could form corrosive solutions, acidic or simply concentrated salts. If organic chemistry is possible in these conditions life might use chlorine rich polymers as part iof the metabolism; from this the low-tech inhabitants of such a world could perhaps produce a range of interesting organic polymer products not normally found in Earth life.
Most plastics are the result of extensive developments in organic chemistry and have a large dependence on petroleum, before the advent of synthetic plastics was developed anyways. You will not see primative peoples developing plastics ever.

Not on our planet, with our atmosphere and hydrosphere; but perhaps on a world somewhat different to our own, this would be developed early on just as leather working developed on Earth.
Ceramics have been with us since the dawn of time, some of the earliest artifacts are ceramic stoneware and pottery. Basic requirement is dirt. you need to have an understanding of chemistry for the rest.
Also fire and something to burn; some of the possible range of terrestrial atmospheres would not support combustion. But perhaps fire could be replaced by geothermal heat, or chemotrophic energy, or natural radioactive fission.
Now also remember the development of electronics and discoveries in electricity did not require gold ever. The fundamental foundation of electricity lies in chemistry. These discoveries were made using common metal salts and studying redox reactions, golds only function in electronics is that it's the perfect electrode seeing as how it never corrodes. Copper was and still is the most commonly used material in electronics, and most wire used in electronics these days has a thin plastic coating to prevent corrosion. Platinum and iridium are just as good as gold in electronics and copper seems to work great in combustion engine spark plugs in spite of its ability to corrode.
Sure; Platinum and iridium would be really useful too; and likely to be associated with gold on such a planet. But if Copper is destroyed by corrosion, then these other elements will have to do- in fact they are better.
. The idea of an aquatic civilization is fanciful, and indeed possible, but they will never be as technologically advanced. Remember as far along as we've gotten on this planet, there are still groups of people who live as if the world was stuck in 10000 BC. These isolated groups did not have the resources available the rest of the world had, no contact with the rest of the world to get an exchange of ideas and resources, and as a result are stuck living with the resources they've got. If it's just stone, wood, fire, and cloth, they aren't going to happen upon a jet engine anytime and they will not spontaneously develop bio technologies or whatever either.

Given a million aquatic civilisations, I would not expect more than one or two to develop technology ; they are mostly going to be cultural/verbal societies, perhaps like the culture the great whales have on Earth, based on song and communications rather than artefacts.
But in a very few cases natural genetic data transfer in the natural biology might be available for easy modification; a naturally occurring Lamarkism, you might say. There are examples on our own planet; the heat loving thermotogales swap genes like Pokemon cards.
Biotechnology on such a world would be a trivial matter, and the development of civilisation on such a world would be far removed from the development we have experienced.
 
Originally posted by Eburacum45we don't know that; some postulated biochemistries use acids as solvents rather than water.
The problem with using acids as solvents rather than water is once water enters the system the acid would dissociate it'd be quite devastating. Obviously we know that life can exist almost anywhere, but intelligent life needs certain conditions. I'd like to hear more about these acid based biochemistries. How do they propose the all important ion exchange is to would in an acid (which is basically a pair of ions when they dissociate in water)???

No; but at an Earth-like temperature they could form corrosive solutions, acidic or simply concentrated salts. If organic chemistry is possible in these conditions life might use chlorine rich polymers as part iof the metabolism; from this the low-tech inhabitants of such a world could perhaps produce a range of interesting organic polymer products not normally found in Earth life.
Again that is fanciful thinking but its not how the chemistry works. Chlorine exists in salts on our planet as is an important part of cell action potential in animals along with sodium and potassium. Again a corrosive solution is not going to just sit around unless its stuck forever in an inert container, you won't have pools of HCl on some planet w/o water and with limestone surface cause HCl is a gas in pure form and highly reactive, especially with limestone. I'm not getting this chlorine rich polymer you speak of. If it doesn't form on earth it won't form on another planet lest chemistry as we know it is wrong. Might seem contradictory to what I said earlier but remember advancements like usable fusion power etc. are feasible and do not violate any laws of physics etc.
Not on our planet, with our atmosphere and hydrosphere; but perhaps on a world somewhat different to our own, this would be developed early on just as leather working developed on Earth. Also fire and something to burn; some of the possible range of terrestrial atmospheres would not support combustion. But perhaps fire could be replaced by geothermal heat, or chemotrophic energy, or natural radioactive fission.
The process to synthesize plastics from crude oil is industrialized (requires refineries and manufacturing plants). Unless plastics are somehow geosynthesized on the surface and can be scooped up and used like metals where on our planet then plastics will not be used by ancients. Fire cannot be supplemented. Geothermal heat is not easily harnessed and "portable" like fire. Chemotrophic energy would be the energy that a chemotroph, like archaebacteria, gives off. Our heterotrophic metabolism makes more energy than chemotrophs do and even so our body heat can't be used for much more than keeping ourselves warm within tolerable environmental temperatures. As for using radioactive materials, did you ever hear about the Russian hunters who curled up next to a highly radioactive satellite battery. They were bombarded with high energy beta emissions and one died immediately, the other cooked pretty badly has nasty burn scars on his body. Gamma and high energy beta decayers are universally deadly to life because of their nature. Gamma is highly destructive because of the size of the wavelength and the energy it has.
Sure; Platinum and iridium would be really useful too; and likely to be associated with gold on such a planet. But if Copper is destroyed by corrosion, then these other elements will have to do- in fact they are better.
Copper has been known for a long time on our planet, the oldest metal known. It corrodes rather easily, but its just as easily melted down. Since its abundance in the universe is exponentially greater than platinum and iridium it will be more economically feasible to use. Also easier to work with given its softness. Remember copper still is not the most naturally occuring metal on the planet. in fact aluminum, calcium, and magnesium are quite high on the percentages by mass but they do not exist in native form and would be just another rock to primitive societies.

Given a million aquatic civilisations, I would not expect more than one or two to develop technology ; they are mostly going to be cultural/verbal societies, perhaps like the culture the great whales have on Earth, based on song and communications rather than artefacts.
I agree, and I don't think their technology would extend much further than simplistic ways to defend themselves and hunt (weapons and armor).
But in a very few cases natural genetic data transfer in the natural biology might be available for easy modification; a naturally occurring Lamarkism, you might say. There are examples on our own planet; the heat loving thermotogales swap genes like Pokemon cards. Biotechnology on such a world would be a trivial matter, and the development of civilisation on such a world would be far removed from the development we have experienced.
but as long as these creatures have been around they have not evolved into a distinct intelligent creature and knowledge of how it works if very important if manipulation is necessary. We wouldn't be able to have pacemakers and replacement joints if we didn't know how the heart and joints function!
 
Again a corrosive solution is not going to just sit around unless its stuck forever in an inert container, you won't have pools of HCl on some planet w/o water and with limestone surface cause HCl is a gas in pure form and highly reactive, especially with limestone.

Yet corrosive sulphuric acid permeates the atmosphere of Venus; corrosive atmospheres are certainly possible. It is a matter of equilibrium. Once the corrosive substance has reacted with everything it can it then becomes stable. In trying to imagine a chlorine rich atmosphere and hydrosphere I find myself having to imagine a world where everything that can react with the corrosive element already has done so.

Consider our own atmosphere; Oxygen is very reactive, and on most planets with oxygen it exists in compound form; only here on Earth oxygen is kept in equilibrium artificially by the action of the biosphere.
A highly speculative HCl biology might keep the environment rich in acid in order to survive.
 
As it happens, HCl is on the far end of the scale of possibility as a solvent in biochemistry; it is mentioned here in passing,
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/S/solvent.html
(an encyclopedia of astrobiology); but ammonia and methanol are given as better candidates.
Of course water remains the solvent of choice, but we still only have a sample of one known life-bearing world to extrapolate from (Earth).
 
I would ask why an alien craft would want to abduct an 'entire airplane and pilot'....I have always felt that these type of ideas say more about those who want to believe in aliens than any logical act that an alien might do. There are any number of better ways for any self-respecting intelligent alien to get data on humans.

This post set off a general discussion on how 'alien' aliens' intentions, mentalities, etc., may be in the Frederick Valentich thread:

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...valentich-disappearance-australia-1978.65302/

This tangential discussion has been moved over to this thread dedicated to the topic.
 
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I would ask why an alien craft would want to abduct an 'entire airplane and pilot'....I have always felt that these type of ideas say more about those who want to believe in aliens than any logical act that an alien might do. There are any number of better ways for any self-respecting intelligent alien to get data on humans.

Maybe the "Aliens" are from the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_(novel)
 
That may be a bad thing - especially if the aliens are 'organic and biological' {ingest, digest, excrete} in nature
- Man who I once read survived because he did not taste good to predatory animals, might make
a tasty morsel to a biological alien from elsewhere.

But always consider that just because Man is stuck on the organic biological paradigm does not mean
other entities in this vast universe are all biological - Always consider the possibility that some beings
may have evolved like what Humans call artificial intelligence and may be machine like {think the SF movie
series "Transformers"} - Such beings might be hard to relate to - but it is possible.

Biological Man, the supposedly evolved Human, is in many ways very inefficient and destructive.
- A hypothetical alien species might not have the flaws inherent in biological life
- Might be we are evolving in that direction right now - Some say 'the Singularity' is near.
I don't care if they are AI or biological...if they got here using science (even if it's years beyond ours then they had to start at a similar level at one time) then they must have something in common on that level with us.
I think we would be able to communicate starting with that basis.
If they use 'magick' or some form of 'science' that is truly alien( and I'm not sure that is even possible...) then all bets are probably off.
 
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