I Could Have Killed Hitler, But...

[amyasleigh]

Often-expressed "alternative history" theme -- "if only I'd had the chance to kill Hitler early in his life..."

Story in my local paper, the Birmingham Mail, of 2 / 9 / 13: about a local World War 1 soldier who supposedly had Adolf Hitler in his gunsights, but failed to kill him.

I see a possible hole or two in the story; but, precis-ing: this happening, supposedly took place in the French village of Marcoing, in the closing weeks of World War 1. Private Henry Tandey, from near Birmingham, came face to face there with Hitler -- who was wounded, and did not try to raise his rifle or defend himself; so Tandey took the decision not to shoot him. Tandey had greatly distinguished himself in various ways in WW1, becoming the subject of a widely-disseminated painting of himself performing a heroic feat.

The meetings in 1938 between Hitler and Neville Chamberlain, abortively trying to head off World War 2, included -- in moments of relaxation -- Hitler showing the abovementioned painting, claiming to recognise Tandey from it, and asking Chamberlain to thank Tandey for sparing his life. Which Chamberlain did; come the outbreak of World War 2, Tandey expressed great regret for not having killed Adolf when he had the chance; and though aged nearly 50, tried unsuccessfully to re-enlist in the Army, hoping to see that "he didn't escape a second time".

That's one possible "take" -- various others, IMO equally possible. Tandey might have said, "I'm not sodding psychic -- to me in 1918, he was just an ordinary Joe, who was wounded and who I had no need to kill." Or, "how does that bloody loony know for sure, that it's me in the picture? What little I remember of the incident, I've no way of matching up to what he looks like now. He's probably talking complete crap." Or, as some have propounded -- if Hitler had been killed in WW1, the Nazi party or equivalent might, in the circumstances which obtained, have arisen in Germany under a different charismatic leader who was, mostly, more mentally stable than Adolf -- less inclined to strange beliefs and impulsive crazy stuff -- whereby Germany could have won WW2.

 

[oldrover]

Exactly, it'll come as no surprise, especially not to you Amyasleigh, that I've had such thoughts about Able Tasmin, Tobias Furneaux, Cook, Bligh etc, etc all the way to Wilf Batty and the bloke who beat up Arthur Reid.

 

[kamalktk]

Everyone kills Hitler on their first trip.
http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory

 

[amyasleigh]

Exactly, it'll come as no surprise, especially not to you Amyasleigh, that I've had such thoughts about Able Tasmin, Tobias Furneaux, Cook, Bligh etc, etc all the way to Wilf Batty and the bloke who beat up Arthur Reid.

Have often felt similarly, re things Australia-related; though absent the players that you mention, one suspects that La Perouse would have got there, and that Australia would have become French -- whence probably not a great improvement on what happened in reality. You've lost me, though, with Arthur Reid (perhaps a memory-failure, to which I'm prone) -- Google revealed only, various rather obscure sportsmen by that name. Could you elucidate?

 

[oldrover]

Arthur Reid curator of Hobart Zoo, Alison Reid's father. He died from injuries sustained while confronting a thief, which led to the debacle with Alison and the council which ultimately played a large part in Benjamin's death.

 

[amyasleigh]

Everyone kills Hitler on their first trip.
http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory

Wonderfully absurd little message-board-tale. Thanks !

 

[amyasleigh]

Arthur Reid curator of Hobart Zoo, Alison Reid's father. He died from injuries sustained while confronting a thief, which led to the debacle with Alison and the council which ultimately played a large part in Benjamin's death.

Ah ! (Lightbulb goes on.) The name Reid should have tipped me off -- I couldn't have been at my brightest last night.

Of course, the trouble is -- even with all these various dorks being "neutralised", you'd very probably only get others committing very much the same offences -- perhaps more effectively than came about in "Our Time-Line".

 

[Reverend D]

Lennard Pearce, who played Grandad in Only Fools and Horses, met Hitler in the 1930s and later said he'd have shot him dead if he'd known what atrocities he'd be responsible for a few years later.

 

[Yithian]

Not 'early', but Mason-Mac, Military Attaché to Berlin, proposed assassinating Hitler on his birthday in 1939. He was a good shot and wanted to do the job himself:

Mason-MacFarlane proposed the assassination of Adolf Hitler, an offer turned down by his superiors. The Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax said of Mason-MacFarlane's plan to assassinate Hitler while he was on a stand reviewing the Wehrmacht for his 50th birthday celebrations on 20 April 1939: "We have not reached that stage … when we have to use assassination as a substitute for diplomacy." Hitler for his part regarded Mason-MacFarlane as a personal enemy.

Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Mason-MacFarlane

Edit: https://issuu.com/thegibraltarmagazine/docs/march2009/32

 

[PeteS]

Apparently the various MI divisions had plans to kill Hitler, but it has been suggested that as the war progressed, it was to the Allies advantage to keep him alive and in charge.

 

[Naughty_Felid]

Apparently the various MI divisions had plans to kill Hitler, but it has been suggested that as the war progressed, it was to the Allies advantage to keep him alive and in charge.

As you know there was a definite tipping point but pre-Normandy it was a good idea to leave him to it. His shocking sacrifice of German troops not to give quarter against the Soviets was often challenged by his staff. The whole eastern front was terrible. If he'd just left the war up to his general's things may have been different.

It makes you wonder though about the race to Berlin - Hitler was pretty much forgotten and leaving him in place was a great idea for the Soviets. The German high command would have happily surrendered to the Americans and British - they didn't want to surrender to the Soviets.

Why wasn't an earlier deal done with the West?

 

[Yithian]

Why wasn't an earlier deal done with the West?

This didn't help:

"Now they are fighting with the frenzy of despair."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

 

[Naughty_Felid]

This didn't help:

"Now they are fighting with the frenzy of despair."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan

Wasn't that just an exercise to piss off the Germans in 44?

 

[Yithian]

Wasn't that just an exercise to piss off the Germans in 44?

I'm not an expert, but I wouldn't have characterised it like that.

It was exploited extensively by Goebbels in 1944 to stiffen public and military resolve, and the whole debate was resurrected when Morgenthau expanded and published the plan in book form in 1945. It was still influencing policy (despite having been disavowed by Roosevelt before his death) in the earlier stages of post-war reconstruction and right up into 1947.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_is_Our_Problem

And let's not forget that the one of the main decision of the the Casablanca Conference (later affirmed at Yalta) was to accept only the unconditional surrender from Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_Conference#Casablanca_Declaration_of_"unconditional_surrender"

This aim, championed by Roosevelt, is still a topic of debate. At the time, experts argued over whether backing the Germans into a corner would ultimately cost more lives and make the work of internal French and German resistance fighters harder, but Roosevelt wanted to bind Stalin to the continued fighting on the Eastern Front (which was devouring German manpower and materiel) and ensure than he didn't reach a separate peace with Hitler. Behind the scenes, U.S. intelligence said that the signed papers could be jettisoned whenever it became prudent to make peace, but even Churchill was said to be taken aback when the plan was publicly announced (this is unclear, he either wasn't or said he wasn't--not the same thing).

At Yalta they further announced an intention to divide the country (and Berlin specifically) into zones administered by the various Allied powers. All of this could hardly have been less palatable for those military leaders who saw this as a 'regular war' and a public that had been fed on a diet of propaganda to obsess on the integrity (geographic etc.) of their homeland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

No doubt, the Russians--and their long-awaited reckoning--were still more feared, but there was a hope that if the Germans could make the fighting costly enough, then the terms for surrender offered by the allies might become less onerous (as surrender would obviate the need for further similar bloodshed).

How greatly all these factors were in their affect on continued Axis military resistance is a matter of ongoing debate with noted voices on both sides, but it certainly didn't the higher echelons of the German command more eager to seek the negotiating table.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... Why wasn't an earlier deal done with the West?

As Yith noted above, the Casablanca Conference agreements rendered the Allied stance as "all for one; one for all" - i.e., the three primary Allies committed to operating in a unified manner and acting as a unified group. Once past that juncture none of the primary Allied players could have sought independent terms (with Germany) without instigating a major diplomatic dogfight.

 

[MorningAngel]

Everyone kills Hitler on their first trip.
http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory

The trouble with that is I’d write myself out of existence. My Grandfather would never have left Poland so I wouldn’t be here.

What I am really interested in is why all the actual attempts to kill Hitler never worked. Why the hell did fate always seem to be on his side? I’ve just been reading about them and there’s always something happens to stop it going ahead. But it seems too many times for just coincidence.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

The trouble with that is I’d write myself out of existence. My Grandfather would never have left Poland so I wouldn’t be here.

What I am really interested in is why all the actual attempts to kill Hitler never worked. Why the hell did fate always seem to be on his side? I’ve just been reading about them and there’s always something happens to stop it going ahead. But it seems too many times for just coincidence.

Ah, a fellow Polack!!
I think some of us lead 'charmed' lives, but it never lasts because Karma always comes along in the end.
I'm always interested in how Hitler came from nothing and rose to such popularity and power, watching his speeches he was very charismatic, hard to take your eyes off him. Shame he used that power in such horrific ways.

 

[Solexman]

Ah, a fellow Polack!!
I think some of us lead 'charmed' lives, but it never lasts because Karma always comes along in the end.
I'm always interested in how Hitler came from nothing and rose to such popularity and power, watching his speeches he was very charismatic, hard to take your eyes off him. Shame he used that power in such horrific ways.

The rise of hitler and the nazi party was no random event. It’s arguably the first planned and considered deliberate attempt to appeal to the electorate.
The moustache?Was fashionable at the time, but he tried lots of variations before settling on that.
The slogans? “Arbeilt Macht Frei”. (work is liberty) , “Unsere letzte hoffhung” (our last hope) etc.
Snappy 3 words phrases that people could remember.

They would make outlandish claims and statements about anything, without any basis in fact, but the uneducated, poor and disenfranchised electorate would grab on to them.

COMMENT ABOUT CONTEMPORARY POLITICS REMOVED ~ MODS

That was not a comment about contemporary politics, it was highlighting comparisons with recent events and manipulation of the media.
I fail to see how we can discuss history without reflection against current events. Or shall we just try and examine the past in a vacuum?

 

[maximus otter]

...in the French village of Marcoing, in the closing weeks of World War 1. Private Henry Tandey, from near Birmingham, came face to face there with Hitler -- who was wounded, and did not try to raise his rifle or defend himself; so Tandey took the decision not to shoot him.

It's a lovely story, but it doesn't add up.

Hitler served in the 16th Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment.

He himself was mustard-gassed on 15.10.18, badly enough to be casevaced to Pomerania, where he was in hospital on the day the war ended. That was his "closing weeks of World War 1".

Even if we extend the "closing weeks" back until 23.8.18, his unit was near point A on the below map; subsequently retreating B-C-D-E-F. (All positions approximate.)

Marcoing, where the supposed incident of mercy took place, is marked with the yellow G. (No suggestion of cowardice is intended or should be inferred; I am just trying to make the marking obvious by colour.)

It's a nice tale, but I'd say it's:



maximus otter